Re: [cesslon] OZ Accident . . .

[busaunit 0]

thank god my tax dollars are going into killing women and childern in iraq 100 of billions of dollars of it and not going into the $20.000 rescure of some guy who jumps off cliffs that does not hurt anyone but himself.????

We where going to carry him out to save that cash for you tax payers but i think the last guy they carried out of there it only took 7 hours and he ended up losing a leg.

maybe we can organize you tax money to pay for the toliet paper mr bush cleans his arse with or paying for the guy who picks up his dogs shit?

Thanks too all the rescue workers in townsville for your help.
"Many community members believe that if individuals are willing to put themselves in such extreme danger, they should be made to cover the cost of their rescue."

who cares if you dont wont to live in a free country where this shit is payed for go move somewhere else?

[Bryguy1224 12]

This is off topic, but I find busaunit's post quite offensive. While most of the US probably disagrees with the war in Iraq, they still support the troops. Calling the U.S. servicemen and women baby killers is extremely offensive to the men and women in uniform. The soldiers, sailors, and marines that put their lives on the line deserve better than to be called "baby killers". I would put money that every service member that is helping with hurricane relief has already served in Iraq or Afganistan at least once. Right now they are currently saving lives stateside be helping with the evacuation. Do you not want those "baby killers" to pull people from the water or families off the roofs of their flooded homes? Or would you rather no one served? WE are servicemembers who VOLUNTEERED to serve our country and WE do it proudly. Remember, my service entitles you to that opinion you have of the servicemembers that support and defend the Constitution of the United States and YOUR safety. I can say all this under my screen name as well. I didn't have to make up a new one to express my opinion.

Bryan J Ody
U.S. Army
Iraq

[DexterBase 1]

While this thread is slowly changing to the point where portions of it should be moved to Speakers Corner, I agree with what you say Ody.

We know why we do it. We don't need anyone to tell us we're doing the right thing because we already know we are.

Keep your head down. Be sure to set aside a few of those leave days to come to Seattle and jump with us. We have a couple cool objects we'd like to share with you.

Edit: Oh yeah, fix your profile. There's no such thing as a BlackJack 245.

[wwarped 0]

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Remember, my service entitles you to that opinion you have of the servicemembers that support and defend the Constitution of the United States and YOUR safety.

thanks for your service.

when I read BUSAUNIT's post, I got the impression he is Australian. it sounded like a political statement for that country and not directed at you.

while you swore an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States, you have no such obligation to the land down-under.

unfortunately, that thought won't remove the sting of his comments.

please focus on performing your duty, staying safe, & coming home healthy to the people who care about you.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[busaunit 0]

sorry to offended you bryguy.I support the troops but not what you do. How does that work you tell me?when the troups do the killing. now i am confused.

thanks for your saftey i feel so much better.

53% of australians voted for the war too.

All i meant was there are more things to worry about then our tax dollars are going then to a couple air rescues.
and for someone to make those types of comments should pull there head out of there arse and have a look around.
and anyone who does this sport who has that view must have have more money then sense.

been to the American war crimes museum in vietnam

look foward to the American war crimes museum in iraq.

[TVPB 0]

<<<<>>>>>>

Ditto. Thanks for your service. The troops on the ground make great sacrifices. It is appreciated by many of us around the world - including here in Australia.

However, the people that lead the troops often have different and varied motivations which many people find questionable. Freedom IS about being able to question what happens. Otherwise it is yet another dictatorship.

to wwarped - Given the amount of financial, political, and human support a two bit "land down-under" such as Australia has given to the United States of America and its political and social agendas in various wars throughout history, I find your comments quite disturbing & ignorant. "you have no such obligation to the land down-under". I am guessing that you have absolutely NO, ZERO, ZIP, comprehension of history and the word ALLY.

FYI - ALLY =

- To place in a friendly association, as by treaty:
- To unite or connect in a personal relationship,
- To enter into an alliance:
- etc.

I guess we comprehend the word ally in a mutually inclusive way - as in we support each other, have a common cause, defend each other, this all implies an obligation to help one another out. This is an unwritten law that makes us human.

Obviously your understanding of the term implies we help ourselves and everybody else should help and support us and we don't give a stuff about them".

For your further information, many Americans have died defending the freedom that many of us take for granted. But so have many Australians, New Zealanders, British, Europeans, etc.

Your comments also clearly show that you are selfish and consider American freedom as the only relevant freedom. Don't forget, if the rest of the world is controlled by dictatorship, that is potentially 5 BILLION people who could oppose/challenge 250 MILLION. It is in YOUR interests, as well as every body else's that other nations are supported in their quest for freedom.

Try opening your mind to the plight, rights, and freedoms of other human beings. Try being a little less selfish and inwardly focused. You would be amazed how much more support you would get if you actually cared for your neighbours instead of just yourself!!!!!!!!!

I want to conclude with something that people should think about. If a military organisation/regime/etc fights for the rights and freedoms of its people, does it then have the right to demand that the people follow certain beliefs?????????? Is this actually freedom???????? If I am forced to think and act in a certain way, am I free?????????

If I am x-rayed, searched. monitored, administered, controlled, etc - am I free????? Or am I just comfortable and safe??? Don't forget that if you lived in a communist country and never challenged its ideologies, you were also safe and comfortable. But were you free???????

If someone cannot challenge a decision that is made - is that freedom?????

Finally, if you are convinced that you are correct and other/different opinions/ideologies/beliefs are wrong, are you open minded and free??? Or are you unknowingly imprisoned in a controlled culture???

Thoughts??

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[RhondaLea 4]

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sorry to offended you bryguy.I support the troops but not what you do. How does that work you tell me?when the troups do the killing. now i am confused.

thanks for your saftey i feel so much better.

53% of australians voted for the war too.

All i meant was there are more things to worry about then our tax dollars are going then to a couple air rescues.
and for someone to make those types of comments should pull there head out of there arse and have a look around.
and anyone who does this sport who has that view must have have more money then sense.

been to the American war crimes museum in vietnam

look foward to the American war crimes museum in iraq.

The proper target for your wrath is your government and that 53% of your people who "voted for the war" not the soldiers who do their duty, regardless of their own feelings about the specific things they do.

It's all well and good that you have been to the American war crimes museum in Vietnam. I grew up during Vietnam, and I'm pretty sure the museum doesn't come close to telling the entire story. Maybe you should talk to some of those who were there-- starting with our guys who managed to make it back, and the Vietnamese people who came with them. I don't think anyone will argue that Vietnam was handled badly by the governments involved, including the United States government (no, we weren't on our own over there, but we were the major presence, so we take the major heat for the failures), but unless you have a wholesale solution to war, I suggest you try a little gratitude toward those who serve. Ultimately, they protect your freedom too.

There will always be sociopathic individuals who are unfit for anything. To attribute their crimes in war to the whole of the military is like attributing their crimes in peacetime to the whole of the citizenry. And that is simply ridiculous.

And trying to pretend that the money for the war is taking money away that could be used to rescue injured base jumpers is simply laughable. War or no, it would not be a priority and one has nothing to do with the other.

Don't say you support the troops. Your own words say you don't. Supporting them means just exactly that--through thick and thin--even when they are performing the parts of their job that you don't like. They don't like it either. The difference between you and them is that they have honor and they do what they have sworn to do, whether they like it or not.

And never forget that part of what they protect is your privilege to do what you feel like doing, including the writing of ill-thought, illogical and inflammatory-for-no-reason posts like this one.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[RhondaLea 4]

Tom,

What wwarped said is that Bryan swore an oath to the United States, not to the "land down under."

Our country chooses its allies and supports them--with the occasional reward of being spit upon by those allies. The fellow up above mentioned Vietnam. Very recently, the French spit on the US with regard to Iraq, but it was on behalf of our allies, the French, that the US went to Vietnam. Alliances do appear to change based on the need of the moment, don't they?

Today, the US and Australia are friends and allies, and yet, here in this forum, an Australian is spitting on an American soldier.

It's one of the freedoms that American soldier is sworn to uphold--your countryman's right to spit on him.

For all that, as I said above--and I do think this was the point wwarped was making rather than the point you attributed to him--alliances do change, and if the US declares war against Australia tomorrow, Bryan's sworn duty will be to come to your country and fight against you who were our former (for the sake of this example) allies.

Do not make the mistake of believing that I'm a flag-waving, "my country right or wrong" type. I'm not. If someone wants to be critical of my government, it's fine with me. It's a far different matter when that someone impugns the honor of the men who give their lives as a matter of duty to my country.

I spit back.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[wwarped 0]

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to wwarped - Given the amount of financial, political, and human support a two bit "land down-under" such as Australia has given to the United States of America and its political and social agendas in various wars throughout history, I find your comments quite disturbing & ignorant. "you have no such obligation to the land down-under". I am guessing that you have absolutely NO, ZERO, ZIP, comprehension of history and the word ALLY.

...

Thoughts??

actually, there is much in your post with which I agree.

I know much about our shared history, having visited Australia several times.

this thread started in another forum, where a member of the US armed forces felt like his service was being derided BY A FELLOW AMERICAN. i.e. someone living in the country he swore to protect. that's got to be very painful for him.

my goal was to support this soldier and point out the comments came from outside the US. from a person outside his home country.

many voices criticize the US and how it treats other countries. (I'll avoid discussing the merits of the criticism.) the folks who volunteer to serve must know this, early on. surely they develop a thicker skin to it. but the same criticism coming from home... that has to hit hard.

Australia has stood by the US firmly for years and is a wonderful, free country.

still, US troops signed up to defend the US. INDIRECTLY that is also a committment to defend other countries.

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while you swore an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States, you have no such obligation to the land down-under.

please re-read that statement. US troops swear an oath that they take VERY seriously. while the US will support and defend Australia (amongst others), the US never asks it's soldiers to swear an oath to protect them.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[TVPB 0]

Hi RL

cf my opening line - I have great respect for any serviceman on the front lines. Whether you like to believe it or not, they ALL make great sacrifices for their nations. Every nationality!!!! Not just yours!!!!!

I am not backing Australia either. I actually believe that ALL mankind should be free, fed, housed, and happy.

Whilst I do have national pride - I have a greater belief that all people on this planet are just that, people. And as long as ANY person does not adversely affect the life of another, (s)he is equal to ANY other person in the world and deserves to be treated equally.

When any nation (and I an open minded enough to include Australia) supposedly fights for freedom when in actual fact they are fighting for reasons of greed and power, then I believe they lack moral standing.

<<<<>>>>

This type of comment is EXACTLY why negative opinions are formed. The reality is that allies choose each other. It is a mutual thing. If only one nation does the choosing then it IS NOT choice. No freedom there. No matter which side of the fence you sit on. r.e. your comment of rewards, please open your mind RL - spitting happens in BOTH directions. I can openly admit that there are many things that Australia has done that I am ashamed about (East Timor, Aboriginals, etc). If you do not believe that your own country does anything wrong, then you have totally closed the door to reality, improvement, change, personal development, etc.

There is a great American TV personal development "guru" that I actually think has a powerful message. Dr Phil - he often states that "The first step to overcoming any problem is to recognise a problem exists. Don't always blame others either, look within yourself". Of course I am speaking of society in general here.

r.e. Iraq - WMD??????? 1800+ dead soldiers, burgoening drug trade, no Osama Bin Laden, perhaps I am ignorant and ill informed, but I am yet to see many positives. I still hope they will come, but . . . . . .


<<<<<<>>>>>>>


With all due respect, do you NOT remember Vietnam????????? Do you not remember the protests that were occuring throughout the world and within your own country???? Do you not remember that Australians and Americans fought side by side in that conflict as well as Afganistan, Iraq, and many other conflicts???

To paraphrase you "It's one of the freedoms that an Australian/British/Kiwi/Japanese/etc soldier is sworn to uphold--your countryman's right to spit on him". For God's sake, Americans are NOT the only nationality sacrificing its people for the rights and freedoms of others.

Do you not remember that civilians back home in both the USA and Australia were protesting against the conflicts? In any situation, you will find people who oppose and support. What does that tell you? That people have opinions that may not necessarily agree with the powers that be at the time. Do you not remember the last USA election result (I was in Seattle on election day BTW). Although Bush, Blair, and Howard all claimed mandates based on election results, there was also a SIGNIFICANT proportion of each of those populations that voted against them. 51% in an exam is just passed. It is NOT a high distinction!!!!!!!

I am not questioning Bryan (cf first line above), I am questioning wwarped and now your views in that the world is a one sided I hate America place. It is not.

I am just questioning the logic that your country is squeaky clean and no one else is contributing to the international cause of freedom. Because both cases are incorrect. And you are blindly patriotic if you disagree.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[RhondaLea 4]

Howdy Tom,

I don't think there was anything in my logic that indicated that my country is squeaky clean. I think that you took a a specific and ran with it, while I simply addressed the specific alone.

I'm a rational anarchist, and my right to swing stops at the end of your nose. I don't believe in manmade borders--people should live where they choose.

If you embrace my philosophy, we've just put an end to war and the need for soldiers.

But we don't live in a perfect world. If you think I support our continuing presence in Iraq, think twice. I did at first, I don't anymore, because our strategy and implementation is bad. But that's about my government, not about those who serve.

And my post is about those who serve, not about my government. You must have missed the last thing I wrote:

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If someone wants to be critical of my government, it's fine with me. It's a far different matter when that someone impugns the honor of the men who give their lives as a matter of duty to my country.

That's my point, and it is the entirety of my point. The rest is explanation and example (and for the examples, you can slot in any nation you choose). One concept that many people have trouble with is that the example is not the point of the argument, so they want to argue the example.

I'm not willing to argue the example, Tom, and I don't think you disagree with the point.

rl

P.S. Those protestors at home did literally spit on returning soldiers. They called them "baby killers." I remember very well.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[TVPB 0]

Yep - I understand that criticism from home can hurt. It is a reality of taking a stance on any issue. Especially when on centre stage.

r.e. soldiers on the ground, as long as they are not committing war crimes (I saw a lot of this up close and personal in Bosnia in 1993/4) I think they all deserve our support - all sides!!!! They are often merely following commands and serving the wants and needs of their governments.

I replied to both yours and Rhonda's comments because there was a hint of a cry for one sided sympathy when I firmly belieive that there are many other nations in the world that contribute to world peace. And they do!!!!! And I also believe that some conflicts are NOT justified. I would have a lot more respect if a nation stated the FULL/REAL reason for initiating a conflict. I know why they don't, but I do not appreciate when a government whose function is to serve the population, does what it wants to do. That is what freedom is. To be able to voice my concerns and beliefs. If I cannot do that, then I am not free. And I do not care how comfortable I am if I cannot be free. Think about the parallels with this philosphy and BASE jumping!!!!!!!!!!!

Reality/fact - the USA's main goal in international politics/etc is to serve its own interests first!!!!!

Reality/fact - Australia's main goal in international politics/etc is to serve its own interests first!!!!!

When anything/anyone serves its own interests, there is potential that other people suffer.

p.s. I have been to the States a number of times. The country is beautiful and I have many friends from there. But so to for France, Croatia, NZ, Norway, Japan, etc.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[TVPB 0]

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I think that you took a a specific and ran with it

Yep - that's me - big mouthed opinionated prick!!

But I think that my background and personal experiences allow me this. The Yugoslav conflict was a shemozzle and it followed years of abuse and total lack of freedom under the former communist regime. I saw the pointless death and destruction of people, religion, and culture. I also saw some of the disgraceful war crimes that were perpetrated during that conflict and total lack of regard for human life. The conflict had many similarities to Vietnam. The soldiers often could not distinguish between the sweet old grandma or cute kid and their lethal opponents. Often they were one and the same thing!!!!

I am in Australia mainly due to lack of freedom (my father fled a communist country). I could have been an American if fate changed my fathers destiny!!!!!!

r.e. Vietnam - same thing happened down here (although I was only a new born at the time). Spitting and abuse.

I personally did not like busanut's comments above. IMHO - it was illogical, ill founded opinion.

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But that's about my government, not about those who serve. And my post is about those who serve, not about my government. You must have missed the last thing I wrote:

Not missed. Its just that a point was made generally about Americans in conflict/wars as well as a point specifically about frontline soldiers. I was pursuing the generalised point and agreeing with the point about soldiers.

If an example or explanation is utilised in a discussion or to make a point, then it is only fair that the validity of that point or the examples or explanations can be questioned.

Its kind of like allowing one boxer to throw a punch and tying the hands of the opponent.

Anyway - its been intellectually stimulating this time in the evening. Thanks for the chit chat.

It looks like we agree to some extent - the soldiers who play fair deserve our full support. Our Governments are crap sometimes, and each country gets it right sometimes and other times gets it wrong.

God Bless America
Advance Australia Fair
God Save our Gracious Queen
etc.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[busaunit 0]

grew up in vietnam south or north?
i have heared both sides and one side sounds a lot worst then the other i will let you decide what one, i have chosen..


where did i say anything about baby killers, troops etc women children,sepos please dont take things out of context as you might start sounding like your government and your media.

if you support a war that kills women and children are you or are you not a women and childern killer?please i would like too know. where does this end

ok what freedom do you talk about?
life that we all take for granted, who is going to take it away.your government vote in a new one.or will you army stop you.?
Supporting them means just exactly that--through thick and thin--even when they are performing the parts of their job that you don't like. They don't like it either.?wtf

As my grandfarther told me there is no honor in war only survival.dday landings. thats good enough for me

i have friends in the army they dont care they like what they do dying is just a part of it such is life.


ps: could someone in the armed forces get me a photo of the 60 miles of bombed out cars.sorry tanks? (RETREATING IRAQI ARMY)white flag out.

yea think that would be a good photo for my wall.

and as you might have noticed i think that anyone one that thinks war is a good thing should but put on an island and let to fight it out and let the rest us get on with it.

I personally did not like busanut's comments above. IMHO - it was illogical, ill founded opinion.

on what subject?

[TVPB 0]

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on what subject?

Attempting to correlate BASE rescue's with atrocities. If you had of stuck with "the government is wasting huge amounts of money on unethical wars but is reluctant to spend a few thousand on rescuing a person who is not adversely affecting anyone else's life", I would have accepted your argument - because I think that is what you were trying to say. Introducing another country and war crimes has totally taken your argument away from your original point (IMHO and I could be wrong).

I agree with you in terms of unecessary killings. As I have said in another post - I have seen it with my own eyes.

My opinion on BASE recue's in our great land, the media and authorities are OVERLY drammatic about the costs and risks involved. The example that occured yesterday in the BM clearly showed that the media reports are blatantly and/or terribly exaggerated and wrong, or that our rescue services are so far substandard that it makes me cry. Why? I know the location well. With the correct rescue equipment and competant people, you can access the location of the accident victim within 20 minutes of reaching the car park. If you choose to take the person out from the bottom, there is about 400 metres of scrub land to overcome prior to reaching a very easy tourist track with a further 40 minute walk out (some jumpers can do this walk in 10 minutes). Or you could just winch the person up again and take 10 minutes to walk out. Not sure how long stabilisation would take as I don't know the extent of the injuries.

I have seen a rescue in France where it took approximately 3 hours from the time of the accident to the time that the person reached a hospital an hours drive away. And the access was much more difficult than in the first example I mentioned above.

Costs - between health insurance and the compulsory medicare taxes we pay and throw in all the rescues that the government / authorities happily pay for, it is crap that they charge variable rates depending on the type of accident you have.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[busaunit 0]

ok
all i was trying to put out there is there is more things to worry about then a base rescue.
I too was at the falls for this rescure and have some first hand exp with this shit not as much as some but thank fuk.if it wasnt for the choppa it would have turned out very bad.

but people take things out of context and spinning into something it wasnt spitting on troops? wtf where did that come from.

anyone can shoot a gun not everyone can put one down
busaunit

[wwarped 0]

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I replied to both yours and Rhonda's comments because there was a hint of a cry for one sided sympathy when I firmly belieive that there are many other nations in the world that contribute to world peace. And they do!!!!! And I also believe that some conflicts are NOT justified. I would have a lot more respect if a nation stated the FULL/REAL reason for initiating a conflict. I know why they don't, but I do not appreciate when a government whose function is to serve the population, does what it wants to do. That is what freedom is. To be able to voice my concerns and beliefs. If I cannot do that, then I am not free.

I have not disputed anything you say and know you make many great points.

I just chose to limit my comments to support a VERY frustrated soldier. a person risking his life for a higher ideal.

I chose not to discuss the greater political picture. I did not say the US's action is justified or not and I know many in the world disagree with the US position.

even when I disagree with the politicians and their policies, the people who serve in the armed forces deserve respect. while embarrassments have, and will happen, it is wrong to say they represent all those who risk their lives. THE VAST MAJORITY HAVE EARNED MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF RESPECT.

I, for one, plan on giving it to them.

as for the policy makers... that is better left for a different thread.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[RhondaLea 4]

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but people take things out of context and spinning into something it wasnt spitting on troops? wtf where did that come from.

Right here:

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been to the American war crimes museum in vietnam

look foward to the American war crimes museum in iraq.

I'd also like to point out that you didn't refer to the "war crimes museum" but to the "American war crimes museum." As has been pointed out, neither Vietnam nor Iraq are entirely American actions. (And Vietnam was even less so than Iraq is.)


And this sounded sarcastic to me:

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thanks for your saftey i feel so much better.

But perhaps you were sincere, in which case I apologize.



rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[ViperPilot 0]

He's just another guy who has no clue about what really goes on. He goes by what his Bush-hatin friends say and the "all-knowing" media. He's just another guy who will never understand what we do, how we do it, and why we do it. Many people just can't get it, he never will, so don't waste your time trying. Stay safe Bryan.

[busaunit 0]

with regards to the veitnam mesuem so let me guess you walked out of there with your american flag still proud as punch did you? at the time i was the only white guy in the building and there was a bunch of young school kids all around me this was about 10 years ago. at the end of the museum there is a section on anti war protesters and how they help stop the war not help the north vietnam government win the war.

also i visted friends up north that there grandmother still had the iron burns (like the one you iron clothes with)all over here back.these where just some
i am not saying this happeneds all the time and every troop does this kind of thing but if it happeneds once
its too much for me,

neither Vietnam nor Iraq are entirely American actions. (And Vietnam was even less so than Iraq is.)

entirely well you did have help. little but yes

if supporting the troops means supporting just one of these action i can not. and when i say troops i mean anyones troops there are more countrys in the world then just the good old USA.
hitlers troops had there support of there people too looked what happened there. It was not wrong till they lost
dont lose and there will never be problem for an army that i understand.

viperpiolt just think if the people do stand up and stop this war it might save your life you might not think you are important but some of us think that you would do more for the human race alive not dead stay safe

[ViperPilot 0]

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hitlers troops had there support of there people too looked what happened there

Actually once the war was relatively underway, many people hated Hitler, in fact, a vast majority of Germany's military were conscripts who only fought so that their families wouldn't be killed. So, I wouldn't say that's huge support.

The Iraq war crimes thing...why loose sleep over some idiot in the Army taking pictures of naked prisoners (those people are minimal) when some insurgent is just blowing women and children up in a market? Or some insurgent is slicing a young girls head off with a machete? Or when an insurgent uses a woman as a body shield? Or when insurgents torture people? Or when insurgents blow up a hospital? Or when insurgents use ambulances to transport weapons? Or when insurgents store weapons in mosques? Point being, where is your basis for accusing the American military of war crimes, but not giving two shits about the above actions of the enemy (p.s. only a small list of a much larger one)?

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viperpiolt just think if the people do stand up and stop this war it might save your life you might not think you are important but some of us think that you would do more for the human race alive not dead stay safe

I don't need saving; I need to do my job. I am damn important; so just because I'm in the military and do things that you don't understand why I do them does not mean I think I'm not important. I'm doing something for the human race. I'm helping Iraqi people. You can disagree w/ some of the ways Bush has gone about stuff in Iraq, but overall, we are doing nothing but trying to create a stable government for a free country. People are just ignorant of what that country was like under Saddam. It was terrible, so therefore I am helping the human race by helping free those people...now the hard part is creating a strong, stable governemnt to continue to provide freedom.

[busaunit 0]

Actually once the war was relatively underway, many people hated Hitler, in fact, a vast majority of Germany's military were conscripts who only fought so that their families wouldn't be killed. So, I wouldn't say that's huge support.


so were the people who supported the troops right or wrong

before the us put trade sanctions on iraq i think that country was doing just fine and america and other countrys where selling arms and chemical wepeons you dont buy something you will never use?
it might not have been perfect but no one has that you take the good with the bad and to say america come give freedom to people by force is a sad thought my friend.

so you kill everyone that does not wont you there then say to the people who are left you are free
you and troops just like you have killed kill over 400 000 people since 1992 you might as well and stay and finish the job

this is more then saddam and his troops ever did

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

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you and troops just like you have killed kill over 400 000 people since 1992 you might as well and stay and finish the job

this is more then saddam and his troops ever did

I am drawing the line in the sand so to speak right here

We killed more people so we were wrong? Not the way it works-anywhere.
I doubt we have killed more than the 'enemy' has...have you looked at the US servicemembers fatality list???
If by some far stretch the 'enemies' numbers are lower, imagine what they would be if we had not taken them down a little at a time.

It is so very easy for people to say (both here and in other countries) we should stay in the US, but I would bet my life that those same people would be screaming we need to help the less fortunate/those who need us if we stayed on our own soil. Then the US would be elitist.

Now granted this is a watered down version, but I figured most people could take this better.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

I also would like clarification on this statement, I think I might be reading it the wrong way...

Quote

I support the troops but not what you do. How does that work you tell me?when the troups do the killing. now i am confused.

Is this to mean that you support troops as people but when they kill you can not support them anymore?

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[busaunit 0]

We killed more people so we were wrong? Not the way it works-anywhere.

so what did saddam do wrong again.


ok after all this i am going to have to say i agree with you all that the troops should go there and kill as many people as they can that dont wont america in there country as they are wrong to defend there own country so who ever is left can be free to work for an american company and eat slack(mcdonalds) to there hart is content

when is there going to be a pro war march so i can show my support

sorry i dont know what i am talking about i am just another pleb

but do any of you people think base jumpers should be about to let tax payers pay for there rescues i have now change my tune on this as well tax should be spent on war and freedom not helping those dirty little base jumper.


freedom comes at price be gratefull you can do anything at all.