The pledge ruled unconstitutional in public schools

[livendive 8]

Note the word "archives" at the beginning of that url. This case (the current one) has not yet made it to the 9th Circuit.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 23]

My bad, sorry, trying to multitask and I am male

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mr2mk1g 10]

Well to be fair, according to the article at least one of the judges in this case considered himself bound by the precedent that the 9th Circuit case you linked to created... so your football taunt is kinda relevant.

[Channman 2]

You posted a CNN article which you hav'nt read very clearly... The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

OK, I'm not the one who read it very clearly. Damn public school education is catching up to me.

[78RATS 0]

...with liberty and justice for all ...(except the Injuns)

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[billvon 3,072]

>I understand what you are saying but this country was founded as a Christian nation.

Some books that may help you better understand this:

The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America, by Frank Lambert
Thomas Jefferson and the Wall of Separation Between Church and State, by Daniel L. Dreisbach

[rushmc 23]

Thanks!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

I understand what you are saying but this country was founded as a Christian nation. Just as other countries tie themselves to othre religions.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Ratified by the US Senate and signed by President John Adams, 1797.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diverborg 0]

Quote

Right, a teacher was wrong and needed retraining. The alternative is to rewrite the pledge so it didn't bother you and every single other person in the US. If we rewrote/reinterpreted all the laws based on single incidents we'd have a very convoluted system.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I got the impression from other threads that you are an atheist. If so you do have a lot of good reasoning, and maybe can explain to me the feelings of some of the other atheists. Is having the phrase "under God" that offensive to most atheists or is there another motive behind their push. I mean is it considered atheistic blashpemy for atheists to say "under God". If so, and there is no God, who would hold them accountable for this horrible act of blasphemy of acknowledging a God. So why does it remotely matter if it's in the pledge.
However, I can understand someone from another religion being bothered if they had someone else they worshipped that didn't go under the name "God". But funny enough, these aren't the people that are complaining.

[livendive 8]

Quote

Correct me if I'm wrong. I got the impression from other threads that you are an atheist. If so you do have a lot of good reasoning, and maybe can explain to me the feelings of some of the other atheists. Is having the phrase "under God" that offensive to most atheists or is there another motive behind their push. I mean is it considered atheistic blashpemy for atheists to say "under God". If so, and there is no God, who would hold them accountable for this horrible act of blasphemy of acknowledging a God. So why does it remotely matter if it's in the pledge.

I'm not Rehmwa, and you may not think I have a lot of good reasoning, but I am an atheist (of sorts) and so I'll answer anyhow. I don't consider it any form of blasphemy to say "under god" and I'm not worried about any eternal consequences. I do believe in allegiance to the country that's made my life as comfortable and fun as it is. When I'm at a wedding or a funeral and someone wants to pray, I simply keep quiet. Similarly when reciting the pledge, I simply skip the "under god" part. The reason for this is one of simple honesty. If I'm dishonest about part of a statement, doesn't that taint the entire statement? When I say the pledge, I mean every word I say. For that reason, I don't include words that I don't mean.

Additionally, I kind of cringe at the thought of us letting what I consider to be a myth guide our way. The statement "one nation, under god" suggests that we should place our national interests below theocratical interests, and I firmly disagree.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Everon 0]

As an atheist myself, perhaps I can shed some light on it. I myself am offended by that, walking into a public restaurant seeing "god bless America" plastered on the wall, etc. I view christianity as a detriment to education. This is the main reason why it is offensive to me.

There are other religions, along with atheists, that do not believe in the christian god, and when we profess our (dis)beliefs, we are looked upon as second-class citizens. This is just wrong, and it is another reason it offends me.

Anyway, I've seen on this thread the ever-popular "we were founded as a christian nation" theme mentioned, and Bill recommended two good readings. Here is a short collection of the thoughts of our founding fathers:

http://www.freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html#madison

[diverborg 0]

Quote

I'm not Rehmwa, and you may not think I have a lot of good reasoning, but I am an atheist (of sorts) and so I'll answer anyhow. I don't consider it any form of blasphemy to say "under god" and I'm not worried about any eternal consequences. I do believe in allegiance to the country that's made my life as comfortable and fun as it is. When I'm at a wedding or a funeral and someone wants to pray, I simply keep quiet. Similarly when reciting the pledge, I simply skip the "under god" part. The reason for this is one of simple honesty. If I'm dishonest about part of a statement, doesn't that taint the entire statement? When I say the pledge, I mean every word I say. For that reason, I don't include words that I don't mean

That makes perfect sense. You don't find it offensive, but I have seen interviews with some atheists that do. These are the ones I tend to understand less. It seems pretty simple to just not say the words if you don't like them.

Quote

Additionally, I kind of cringe at the thought of us letting what I consider to be a myth guide our way

I understand this too, but the majority of people in America still don't see God as a myth, otherwise this would have been thrown out a long time ago. So why not let majority rule.

Quote

The statement "one nation, under god" suggests that we should place our national interests below theocratical interests, and I firmly disagree.

This is the best argument I've seen yet. I think this is the first time I've been able to understand one's reasoning behind leaving out the "under God" part. However, I don't feel that it suggests this, or that the country is really doing this as a whole. I know plenty of people on here that would be very quick to disagree with me though.
And of course being a Christian, there will be certain theocratic interests that don't bother me. This is not saying that I want the US to be a theocracy.

[diverborg 0]

Quote

As an atheist myself, perhaps I can shed some light on it. I myself am offended by that, walking into a public restaurant seeing "god bless America" plastered on the wall, etc. I view christianity as a detriment to education. This is the main reason why it is offensive to me.

There are other religions, along with atheists, that do not believe in the christian god, and when we profess our (dis)beliefs, we are looked upon as second-class citizens. This is just wrong, and it is another reason it offends me.

I'm sorry you feel like a second class citizen, but I do not view you as any less important or condone any Christian to treat you as any less important. We are instructed to love everybody.
However, I have to go to work and I don't have time to debate it. But I have a hard time as seeing Christianity detrimental to education. I know plenty of kids that went to private Christian schools that continued on at a state university to get a degree. A good friend of mine is a chemical engineer and a Christian. Imagine that. It's all about hearing all sides of an issue, not just the atheistic and not just the Christian.

[Everon 0]

Let me qualify what I wrote earlier. It's not so much christianity in general, but rather the actions and words of the religious right. The intelligent design garbage and their blatant actions of discrimination and bigotry they espouse.

I'm certainly not debating the fine education available at jesuit schools - I for one got my master's at a jesuit school, and the instruction was first-class.

As an atheist, my standards parallel yours, but let me add that we are strongly opposed to discrimination of any kind, and are for equal civil rights for all.

Tschuess!

[Channman 2]

Your point is well taken, but if I were standing next to you, I would not expect you to be offended if I choose to say Under God while reciting the pledge as I will continue to do dispite this or other rulings.

Its just words, how can that be offensive to someone whos choice is not to believe, funny how they wish not to have god shoved down their thoats but insist on shoving their beliefs with a federal court's help down others.

These things should not really matter to atheist, when your dead your dead, life is to short when your clock is ticking to worry over such trivial things.

So go out and be merry, have fun and try to find some happiness, before the lights turn out.

[jakee 1,563]

Quote

As an atheist, my standards parallel yours, but let me add that we are strongly opposed to discrimination of any kind, and are for equal civil rights for all.

Really, have you asked all of us?

Atheism carries with it no binding moral code, political direction or way of life, how could it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,563]

Quote

Its just words, how can that be offensive to someone whos choice is not to believe, funny how they wish not to have god shoved down their thoats but insist on shoving their beliefs with a federal court's help down others.

How is not having under god as part of the official wording shoving my beliefs down your throat.

'One nation as part of a random and soulless cosmos' would be shoving beliefs down your throat. Would you be willing to stand by and just not say that part?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

Quote

As an atheist, my standards parallel yours, but let me add that we are strongly opposed to discrimination of any kind, and are for equal civil rights for all.

Really, have you asked all of us?

Atheism carries with it no binding moral code, political direction or way of life, how could it?

As opposed to the moral code and political direction that led to the Crusades and the Inquisition?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Everon 0]

I certainly wouldn't be offended by your recitation. That is your belief and you have every right to have it.

Actually, I don't think this guy cares what others think of his beliefs - it is in his (and my) opinion unconstitutional to include the phrase, because our constitution guarantees everyone's religious freedom, and there are those in this country whose religion (or lack thereof) does not worship this "god."
Do it in church, home, whatever - not in public schools.

Love your last statement. This is, indeed, one of our goals in life - and I'd certainly hope for everyone else as well!

[Channman 2]

Okey dokey,

If you find yourself at Spaceland your first lift ticket is on me.

Cheers

[Everon 0]

Yes indeed it does:

1) We believe in the equal rights, opportunities, and benefits for all humans.

2) We do not tolerate discrimination for ANY reason against anyone, nor bigotry.

3) We believe that scientific advancement is the medium for the benefit of future generations to achieve happiness and an excellent quality of life.

4) We believe one should strive for "heaven" during THIS life, and make the most of your skills and intelligence now, not in another "life."

This is our "moral code," so to speak, our directions for a "way of life."

As for the "standards" in my earlier response, I was refering to whom I was responding to of his "love of everyone." Of course, there are many that do not adhere to that, in which case my standards would not reflect theirs.

[GTAVercetti 0]

Quote

As an atheist myself, perhaps I can shed some light on it. I myself am offended by that, walking into a public restaurant seeing "god bless America" plastered on the wall, etc.

A public restaurant? You mean, a PRIVATE business? or perhaps you were you talking about that government run Friday's on the corner of 5th St.

Its a privat business, they can have "god bless" if they want. Sorry you get offended so easily. I view atheists like you in much the same way I view the religious right.

Not highly.

In anycase, I say take out "under god" from the Pledge. problem solved.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Everon 0]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

[jakee 1,563]

Quote

As opposed to the moral code and political direction that led to the Crusades and the Inquisition?

That is exactly my point. I am an atheist, if you hadn't noticed, and I say that not only is it impossible for there to be a unifying ideology of atheism, I think its brilliant that there isn't one.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,563]

Quote

1) We believe in the equal rights, opportunities, and benefits for all humans.
2) We do not tolerate discrimination for ANY reason against anyone, nor bigotry.
3) We believe that scientific advancement is the medium for the benefit of future generations to achieve happiness and an excellent quality of life.
4) We believe one should strive for "heaven" during THIS life, and make the most of your skills and intelligence now, not in another "life."

We? Who is this we? Where is this written, who is our Grand High Poobah, through what organisation do we convene and discuss these beliefs?

There is only one criterion for atheism, the conviction that there is no god. That is the meaning of the word and that is all it conveys. Any further goals or life statements you may wish to add are yours, not 'ours'.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?