windcatcher 0 #26 September 19, 2005 Quote I have higher morals than many Christmas Christians I know. baah!!! These kinds really are NOT real Christians Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #27 September 19, 2005 not trying to stir any shit here or anything, serious question... I wonder how the # of atheists/agnostics/christians etc. in skydiving compares to the general population. Wouldn't it be an interesting observation if the number of atheists where significantly higher in skydiving than in the general population? just a random thought... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #28 September 19, 2005 QuoteI have higher morals than many Christmas Christians I know. That may be true. However, where do you think your sense of morality comes from? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #29 September 19, 2005 not my quote Paj ... but the idea that one cannot be a generally okay person without faith has never been a good argument for me. Its closer to a Republican talking point than an arguement. I would argue that it would be hard to be an exceptional person, one who may give their life for another, without faith. I would also argue that I may not have some of the answers of life, or know what answers I lack and thus must rely on faith, to be based upon faith. But to say that newsstand cannot love his children, cannot love, respect, and be faithful to his wife, without having faith is arrogance. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #30 September 19, 2005 Quotenot my quote Paj ... Whoops! Sorry about that. Redirect to newsstand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #31 September 19, 2005 QuoteBut to say that newsstand cannot love his children, cannot love, respect, and be faithful to his wife, without having faith is arrogance. That's not my point at all. I'm not saying that people without faith can't be moral. I know plenty who are. I'm just asking where they think that sense of morality originated? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #32 September 19, 2005 QuoteQuote I have higher morals than many Christmas Christians I know. baah!!! These kinds really are NOT real Christians not necessarily so. I have known Christians that did not live the best lives. They profess all the same things as you do, but slip up. They also believe in Christ as their savior, have been "born again," but don't go to church and take it for granted. I would not put the morals of newsstand below them. I would put his morals significantly above theirs. But (here's a softball for you) how are we to tell who are the "real" Christians as you say? I for one have trouble telling someone they are not something they claim to be, without something to back it up. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #33 September 19, 2005 I have a brother who is an athiest. He may disagree, but IMHO he got his morality from Mom. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #34 September 19, 2005 > where do you think your sense of morality comes from? I got my sense of morality originally from my parents - which is the place that most people get it, whether they are atheists, christians, muslims or buddhists. Later, when I was living on my own, I refined it through contemplation and a re-examination of my beliefs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #35 September 19, 2005 > not trying to stir any shit here or anything, serious question 1. I didn't read all of the previous thread of Windcatcher's but in it I did read that you were wishing youself not to use such language. Why do you continue? It is not a hard thing to change, expecially in the typewritten realm. 2. Anyone that starts a post like this is hard to take seriously. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #36 September 19, 2005 QuoteI got my sense of morality originally from my parents - which is the place that most people get it, whether they are atheists, christians, muslims or buddhists. Later, when I was living on my own, I refined it through contemplation and a re-examination of my beliefs. Herd instinct? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #37 September 19, 2005 >Herd instinct? No; parents. See my post. Are you replying to the wrong person again? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #38 September 19, 2005 Quote>Herd instinct? No; parents. Ok... Where did they get it...their parents...I know.... So on and so forth. Where did it originate? Added: I saw your post. You & 1010 said the same thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #39 September 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteI got my sense of morality originally from my parents - which is the place that most people get it, whether they are atheists, christians, muslims or buddhists. Later, when I was living on my own, I refined it through contemplation and a re-examination of my beliefs. Herd instinct? Hard not to take that pejoratively. He gave a seemingly honest answer, you slam him? If you believe that the judeo-christian belief set provides morallity to mankind, say so, just back it up. If not from the text of the document, than otherwise. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #40 September 19, 2005 QuoteBut (here's a softball for you) how are we to tell who are the "real" Christians as you say? I for one have trouble telling someone they are not something they claim to be, without something to back it up. "By their fruits you will know them". I think if you watch closely, you will be able to determine who are the hypocrites and who are the real deal. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #41 September 19, 2005 QuoteHard not to take that pejoratively. He gave a seemingly honest answer, you slam him? If you believe that the judeo-christian belief set provides morallity to mankind, say so, just back it up. If not from the text of the document, than otherwise. I didn't mean anything I've typed so far to be a slam. I promise. I'm really just talking about the existence of God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #42 September 19, 2005 Quote "By their fruits you will know them". ding ... but I'm out of here for now. I opened a fine Merlot in memory of Adrian, and Egons. Be putting steak on the grill soon with friends over. Cheers all. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #44 September 19, 2005 >Where did it originate? From a combination of the morals and values of small towns in Ireland, Italy, Austria and France, and as altered by the experiences of immigrants and first-generation americans. I can go back about four generations; beyond that, I don't know where they came from. But that's just the history. My own values are a result of what my parents taught me plus what my life has taught me - and since no one has traveled quite the same road I have, no one's going to have quite my values. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #45 September 19, 2005 I have more thoughts on this but it will have to wait till tomorrow. My day started at 4:30am and I'm beat. Again, none of that was meant as a slam. See you tomorrow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #46 September 19, 2005 QuoteMy own values are a result of what my parents taught me plus what my life has taught me - and since no one has traveled quite the same road I have, no one's going to have quite my values. Bill, what religion were/are your parents? I recall reading somewhere that you went to a Catholic high school...but don't want to assume that was because your family is Catholic (I've known a Jew or two to go to catholic school because of the discipline and/or the education). Just curious. As for me, my values and morals came from both what my parents taught and modeled (which included myriad religous and spiritual examples), as well as tons of reading, learning, looking, considering, and inner examination of things. My values and morals have stayed fundamentally the same, but with age also comes wisdom (or so they say) and as I've grown older, I've tried to impliment some of those values a little bit more actively in my world. As Gandhi said "be the change you want to see in the world." And so I am trying. Failing often, but always trying. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #47 September 19, 2005 Quote> not trying to stir any shit here or anything, serious question 1. I didn't read all of the previous thread of Windcatcher's but in it I did read that you were wishing youself not to use such language. Why do you continue? It is not a hard thing to change, expecially in the typewritten realm. 2. Anyone that starts a post like this is hard to take seriously. 1... old habits die hard 2... not my prob if you can't take my words at face value... too bad you don't have anything relevant to offer re: the question, but I do thank you for calling me on the swearing thing... that's a tough one for me... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites newsstand 0 #48 September 19, 2005 Replying to everything from here to my previous post. 1) Damn I have never had this big an impact on DZ.com and I am thrilled even though I know not everything between here and there is about my post but most relate. 2) I quote myself in response to the question to where did my moral attitude come from. "One mentioned doing good because it is good and not doing wrong because it was wrong. That is a great philosophy but it almost certainly came from your religious youth." No doubt my basic life beliefs come from my Judeo-Christian upbringing and no complaints. If the Sunnis and the Shiites in Iraq could get beyond the "modern" influence in their religion they could probably agree too. If Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland could agree that their differences are really political and even ethnic maybe they could really move forward too. Unfortunately in the modern world were we are so “educated” we let it all come back to religious beliefs and not human ones. I really believe that the main difference between left and right on the U.S.A. political scale is this simple. The "Right" wants to control what happens in the bedroom and will let business do what it wants and the "Left" will let you do want you want in the bedroom but will control business to death. That is why those of us who are left or right of center are so important. We start bitching when either extreme goes overboard. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #49 September 19, 2005 >Bill, what religion were/are your parents? Both my parents were catholic. A few generations back you get into some protestantism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StevePhelps 0 #50 September 19, 2005 QuoteBut (here's a softball for you) how are we to tell who are the "real" Christians as you say? I for one have trouble telling someone they are not something they claim to be, without something to back it up. WE don't have to deal with that. Christ said HE would. Matthew 13: 24-30 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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Michele 1 #46 September 19, 2005 QuoteMy own values are a result of what my parents taught me plus what my life has taught me - and since no one has traveled quite the same road I have, no one's going to have quite my values. Bill, what religion were/are your parents? I recall reading somewhere that you went to a Catholic high school...but don't want to assume that was because your family is Catholic (I've known a Jew or two to go to catholic school because of the discipline and/or the education). Just curious. As for me, my values and morals came from both what my parents taught and modeled (which included myriad religous and spiritual examples), as well as tons of reading, learning, looking, considering, and inner examination of things. My values and morals have stayed fundamentally the same, but with age also comes wisdom (or so they say) and as I've grown older, I've tried to impliment some of those values a little bit more actively in my world. As Gandhi said "be the change you want to see in the world." And so I am trying. Failing often, but always trying. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #47 September 19, 2005 Quote> not trying to stir any shit here or anything, serious question 1. I didn't read all of the previous thread of Windcatcher's but in it I did read that you were wishing youself not to use such language. Why do you continue? It is not a hard thing to change, expecially in the typewritten realm. 2. Anyone that starts a post like this is hard to take seriously. 1... old habits die hard 2... not my prob if you can't take my words at face value... too bad you don't have anything relevant to offer re: the question, but I do thank you for calling me on the swearing thing... that's a tough one for me... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newsstand 0 #48 September 19, 2005 Replying to everything from here to my previous post. 1) Damn I have never had this big an impact on DZ.com and I am thrilled even though I know not everything between here and there is about my post but most relate. 2) I quote myself in response to the question to where did my moral attitude come from. "One mentioned doing good because it is good and not doing wrong because it was wrong. That is a great philosophy but it almost certainly came from your religious youth." No doubt my basic life beliefs come from my Judeo-Christian upbringing and no complaints. If the Sunnis and the Shiites in Iraq could get beyond the "modern" influence in their religion they could probably agree too. If Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland could agree that their differences are really political and even ethnic maybe they could really move forward too. Unfortunately in the modern world were we are so “educated” we let it all come back to religious beliefs and not human ones. I really believe that the main difference between left and right on the U.S.A. political scale is this simple. The "Right" wants to control what happens in the bedroom and will let business do what it wants and the "Left" will let you do want you want in the bedroom but will control business to death. That is why those of us who are left or right of center are so important. We start bitching when either extreme goes overboard. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #49 September 19, 2005 >Bill, what religion were/are your parents? Both my parents were catholic. A few generations back you get into some protestantism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevePhelps 0 #50 September 19, 2005 QuoteBut (here's a softball for you) how are we to tell who are the "real" Christians as you say? I for one have trouble telling someone they are not something they claim to be, without something to back it up. WE don't have to deal with that. Christ said HE would. Matthew 13: 24-30 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
