sinker 0 #201 September 28, 2005 QuoteQuote )o( <----- that's me moonin you john! Very adult I'm sure Quote just what word games am I playing mr. professor? . "the priest is a representative, a shadow, a figure of not only christ (who was a man) but of God the Father. How can a woman stand in that place? What does the symbol of woman do when put there? " Followed shortly thereafter by "God the FATHER has no gender" You play games with the rules, some of which apply and some don't on account of cultural context (head coverings etc) without eplaining any way that determination can be made except arbitrarily. You explain away inconsistencies by insisting that words have different meanings to God than to us. The list is so long I can't believe you take yourself seriously when you deny doing it. you obviously have no clue what sexual symbolism means. in many ways your worse than a fundamentalist. moses stood at the head, he sat in the seat... he was the head... he personified God as Father... b/c God chose him to represent Him as such. Chosing a woman wouldn't make sense. The symbolism would be contradictory. I'm not playing word games, you're just not opening your eyes. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #202 September 28, 2005 Please cut it out, you two. Kallend, stop baiting him. Sinker, stop calling him names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #203 September 28, 2005 Quote>Why are there wedding ceremonies after all? To bring people together. Priests don't marry people, people marry other people. The wedding isn't to make their wedding valid or anything, it is to present the couple to the community and (in effect) tell the world "we are together now" which is an important message. But the content of the ceremony isn't important, it's the crowd that gathers to view it and to respect the union of the two people. i didn't bring up the wedding ceremony example b/c priests are important to it... the question was about why do we as humans need pomp and ceremony... the ceremony is important, I would say it's necessary... your very words were... Quoteit is to present the couple to the community and (in effect) tell the world "we are together now" which is an important message that msg IS important and that is what the ceremony communicates, just as funeral ceremonies communicate other msgs, ordinations others, high masses, etc. etc... the poster I was responding to was questioning the importance of ceremony itself, saying it was only to seperate "us" vs. "them. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #204 September 28, 2005 QuotePlease cut it out, you two. Kallend, stop baiting him. Sinker, stop calling him names. yes dad. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #205 September 28, 2005 But every time I see this thread I think gays are being executed by the pope. Maybe it's something unconscious....just thought I'd share. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #206 September 28, 2005 QuoteBut every time I see this thread I think gays are being executed by the pope. Maybe it's something unconscious....just thought I'd share. linz No, that is NEXT year. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #207 September 28, 2005 Quotethe ceremony is not to seperate Us from Them. We need the ceremony. I don't mean to imply that that was the original purpose of the ceremony. Ritual has been around much longer than Christianity. Jung even found religous symbolism in the collective unconscious. Some people need that symbolism and ritual much more than others to experience their relationship with a higher power, whether that higher power be Jesus, YHVH, Nirvana, Shiva, Allah, the Tao. But the symbolism is not the message. The I Ching (yin / yang), the Star of David, and the Masonic Lodge's Compass and Square all represent the same relationship between the masculine and feminine. For that matter, the relationship between sin and cosine in a right triangle was likely used for the same concept by the Pythagoreans. This duality is a basic tenet to nearly all religions worldwide. But we don't think of the Taoist and the Jews and the Christians and the pantheists as sharing basic beliefs. We look at them as different from one another instead of being similar, when their similarities far outnumber their differences. It may not be the purpose of the ceremony, but it is a result of it. An old Sufi proverb comes to mind: "We should love the water more and the pitcher less." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #208 September 28, 2005 QuoteQuotethe ceremony is not to seperate Us from Them. We need the ceremony. I don't mean to imply that that was the original purpose of the ceremony. Ritual has been around much longer than Christianity. Jung even found religous symbolism in the collective unconscious. Some people need that symbolism and ritual much more than others to experience their relationship with a higher power, whether that higher power be Jesus, YHVH, Nirvana, Shiva, Allah, the Tao. But the symbolism is not the message. The I Ching (yin / yang), the Star of David, and the Masonic Lodge's Compass and Square all represent the same relationship between the masculine and feminine. For that matter, the relationship between sin and cosine in a right triangle was likely used for the same concept by the Pythagoreans. This duality is a basic tenet to nearly all religions worldwide. But we don't think of the Taoist and the Jews and the Christians and the pantheists as sharing basic beliefs. We look at them as different from one another instead of being similar, when their similarities far outnumber their differences. It may not be the purpose of the ceremony, but it is a result of it. ah.. thanks for the clarification... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #209 September 28, 2005 QuoteBut every time I see this thread I think gays are being executed by the pope. Maybe it's something unconscious....just thought I'd share. linz OMG, heaven forbid! what a horrid thought! Pope Benedict is really a very kind and humble man. My wife and I received communion from him and spoke with him. He's quite and gentle, not the bull-dog fire breathing nazi he's been made out to be. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #210 September 28, 2005 Oh MY. Now I feel guilty for what I "saw" when I read the title of the thread. It takes a really good Catholic to make me feel guilty with such ease... Honestly....that wasn't meant as a slam. It's just that every time I perused the headers, that's what I saw until I did a double-take. Peace~ linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #211 September 28, 2005 QuoteOh MY. Now I feel guilty for what I "saw" when I read the title of the thread. It takes a really good Catholic to make me feel guilty with such ease... Honestly....that wasn't meant as a slam. It's just that every time I perused the headers, that's what I saw until I did a double-take. Peace~ linz oh hun, i wasn't trying to make you feel guilty! I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention at all. I didn't take it as a slam either... in fact, the headline DOES read a bit severe, doesn't it... no harm intended, hugs, md -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyRamone 0 #212 September 28, 2005 QuoteI think it is wrong to keep devout women and gays from a position they are otherwise qualified for, based solely on their sex or sexual orientation. I wouldn't do that. But again, I don't think it's evil/bad/outrageous that the church has its own rules on that. Say what you want but I do not want a homosexual teaching my kids about the word of the lord, I was raised that women and men sleep together not men and men or women and women. When it comes to my faith and my kids religion, no gay man or woman will be teaching them. That is my choice, so respect it please. Oh ya, i give a High 5 to the pope as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #213 September 28, 2005 >When it comes to my faith and my kids religion, no gay man or woman >will be teaching them. That is my choice, so respect it please. Choose whatever faith (with whatever standards) you want. In the 1950's, people refused to have those shiftless blacks teach their kids. The attorney general of Virginia back then stated that "Negro teachers will never be employed to teach White children in a tax-supported system in Virginia." After all, the blackness might 'rub off' on the kids. Turned out to be a baseless fear, as this one will turn out to be. But it was still (and is still) the choice of the parents. Personally, I'd much rather have Keith, or Scott, or Emily teach my kids that a priest who's been accused of pedophilia then sheltered by the church. But that's just me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #214 September 28, 2005 Personally, I'd much rather have Keith, or Scott, or Emily teach my kids that a priest who's been accused of pedophilia then sheltered by the church. But that's just me. *** I'd rather not have any of them, thanks... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyRamone 0 #215 September 28, 2005 My daughters godfather is black so no need to try and change the subject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyRamone 0 #216 September 28, 2005 QuotePersonally, I'd much rather have Keith, or Scott, or Emily teach my kids that a priest who's been accused of pedophilia then sheltered by the church. But that's just me. I do not know any of these people so I can not relate to you stating "that they would be good at teaching religion", they might be good for you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #217 September 28, 2005 Absolutely correct. And the pope can exclude whomever he wants from his organization. No-one is compelled to join. Even if they share the same imaginary friends as Roman Catholics, there are other denominations who will accept them.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #218 September 28, 2005 I think that 'beliefs' play a part in how each person defines three terms: faith religion church (organizations (churches) which provide the ceremony (religion) to help individuals practice their strongly held beliefs (faith)) You can have faith without the other two You can have religion without a church It's in the best interests of the organizations to twist these three independent concepts to make people think that a church must exist to administrate the other two. I seriously believe that the splendor of the organized church (sweeping arches, tons of statues, etc) was purposely designed to make the ignorant feel small and dependent. Keep em stupid, keep em dependent, keep em in awe. Much like the democratic party. it's a normal psych tactic. what's your take on that? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #219 September 28, 2005 I seriously believe that the splendor of the organized church (sweeping arches, tons of statues, etc) was purposely designed to make the ignorant feel small and dependent. Keep em stupid, keep em dependent, keep em in awe. Much like the democratic party. it's a normal psych tactic. what's your take on that? *** my take on that? I think that's an incredibly paranoid and pessimistic view of things and I'm sorry you feel that way... when I'm in St. Peters or St. John Lateran or Notre Dame I don't feel small and dependent, I feel swept up and part of of all. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #220 September 28, 2005 > I do not know any of these people . . . And I suspect you would not want to. They are all gay, so I think you would reject them as quickly as a 1950's Virginian would reject your daughter's godfather - and for as valid a reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #221 September 28, 2005 Quote> I do not know any of these people . . . And I suspect you would not want to. They are all gay, so I think you would reject them as quickly as a 1950's Virginian would reject your daughter's godfather - and for as valid a reason. but is that what he is really saying bill? I'm not so sure... I thought he was saying that he didn't want homosexuals in the catholic church teaching his children about morality and religion. I didn't hear him say that he would dismiss gay people out of hand as people. Are you stretching this just a little bit? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #222 September 28, 2005 QuoteKeep em stupid, keep em dependent, keep em in awe. Much like the democratic party. it's a normal psych tactic. what's your take on that? *** my take on that? I think that's . no, I meant about how you differentiate between your beliefs vs cermony (sacrements) vs organized religion administering it all. Do you require all of it to count? Or do the others just 'assist' you in your exercise of your faith? (what? no response on my comparison of the DNC to a misapplied organized religion?) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #223 September 28, 2005 QuoteQuoteKeep em stupid, keep em dependent, keep em in awe. Much like the democratic party. it's a normal psych tactic. what's your take on that? *** my take on that? I think that's . no, I meant about how you differentiate between your beliefs vs cermony (sacrements) vs organized religion administering it all. Do you require all of it to count? Or do the others just 'assist' you in your exercise of your faith? (what? no response on my comparison of the DNC to a misapplied organized religion?) sorry to have missed your point... if I understand your ? correctly, I could still have faith if I were stranded on a deserted island and didn't have ceremony or a formal church (either a building or the instituition), but being a human being, I'd surely devise some sort of ritual of my own as an aid, assist, whatever. However, I think the assumption on which your premise is based is flawed, that ceremony and religion were created to piggy-back on faith, sort of in a parasitic fashion. I don't see it that way. It's unfortunate that so many have been hurt by organized religion and that there have been so many abuses. It's purposes, at least as I see it, really isn't to control and manipulate. I see ceremony and religion as far more benevolent and complementary to faith than that. sorry if this is rambling or of the mark. oh yeah... and did the dnc as misplaced organized religion really require a remark?!? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #224 September 28, 2005 QuoteKeep em stupid . . . Much like the democratic party. Are you implying that the Democrats place less value on education than the Republican party? I find that extremely difficult to believe. Do you have any evidence to support such a view? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #225 September 28, 2005 QuoteHowever, I think the assumption on which your premise is based is flawed, that ceremony and religion were created to piggy-back on faith, sort of in a parasitic fashion. YES that's exactly what I mean, but I'd never verbalized it that way. THANK YOU. It's so clear now. (Don't feel bad, I think every large organized group attracts the power hungry - despite original good intentions, despite that most people are good hearted and are sincere, they all eventually go through cycles of corruption. Even the DNC) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
