sinker 0 #151 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteApparently Im digging myself into a hole i thought i was digging out of.... Sink: your opinion on the gay debate are not what I was refering to and do not matter. i was not making a judgement call. My original point was that there's very little to be offended about when discussing a woman wearing a hat where as a guy with his dick in another guy is a more provocative subject. you comment is similar to the following line.... so do you beat your wife often? the answer is condemning either way. your comment painted me as a gay hater which I am not. if you didn't mean to offend, so be it. no prob. my point in all this is that there is a HUGE diff b/t a woman covering or not covering her head or accepting homosexuality in the church b/c it's common practice (so the gay activists would have us believe) in today's culture. No really, there is not. If the Bible says that a gay lifestyle is wrong and it says that woman not wearing head coverings is wrong or that speaking up is wrong, then they are all wrong. You cannot pick and choose which ones still apply. Of course he can - that's exactly what he IS doing. don't you have some model rockets to play with or something kallend? you aren't one that has shown any semblence of -or desire to- understand what the hell we're trying to say here... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #152 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuotejust as long as I didn't become the sacrificial offering. Hmm, and there's another idea. But then in my cult, being the sacrificial offering might be something that you would enjoy. mmmm... hurt me! mamma! -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #153 September 27, 2005 it's that I recognize the right of the catholic church to come up with whatever rationale they want. It's like discussing someone else's religion. I may disagree with their beliefs, but I'm not going to tell them they're wrong*** i do believe that is the mistep... i thought you HAVE said they are wrong, maybe not in that exact language but... what bothers me is that the church's rules are viewed as silly when in reality, very few here could say WHY they are the way they are, only that they are old fashioned, bigoted, behind the times, etc etc etc.... i guess it doesn't matter, the church isn't asking for understanding.... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #154 September 27, 2005 >mmmm... hurt me! mamma! Why, I just looked in the DSM-IV, and you seem to have a disorder! Apparently it's treatable with medroxyprogesterone acetate. That lowers testosterone levels and works to decrease sexual urges, fantasies and behaviors. We'll get you healthy again in no time! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #155 September 27, 2005 well, whatever. Maybe if we were a race of robots we would mindlessly follow everything to the letter regardless of its importance. But in the real world, some things are given greater emphasis than others. For example, I don't see too many even Orthodox Jews making animal holocausts today. I also don't see anyone denouncing the wearing of cotton/polyester blends. Which if you followed every little detail of every law, would be forbidden today (the wearing of cloth of two different fabrics is forbidden in one passage in the Bible, maybe Exodus or Leviticus). The fact is that, right or wrong, we are not automatons, and we can see that there are some things that have greater importance than others. That's why nobody cares about cotton/polyester blends. As for the homosexuality thing, who knows. I have always wondered why everyone gets all uptight about sexuality. When you read the gospels, its clearly not the foremost item on Christs' mind. He makes little or no mention of it in fact. He tends to emphasize things like compassion and kindness to fellow human beings, treating others as you would be treated, love God & recognize your dependence on God, etc. The whole sex thing has gotten blown WAY out of proportion when you compare it to the very small emphasis it has in the Gospels. It seems to me that giving every statement equal emphasis doesn't pan out in the real world. Certainly Jesus was no fundamentalist. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #156 September 27, 2005 Quote>mmmm... hurt me! mamma! Why, I just looked in the DSM-IV, and you seem to have a disorder! Apparently it's treatable with medroxyprogesterone acetate. That lowers testosterone levels and works to decrease sexual urges, fantasies and behaviors. We'll get you healthy again in no time! tell me something I don't know, bill... you and I are more alike than you know... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #157 September 27, 2005 > i thought you HAVE said they are wrong . . . I think it is wrong to keep devout women and gays from a position they are otherwise qualified for, based solely on their sex or sexual orientation. I wouldn't do that. But again, I don't think it's evil/bad/outrageous that the church has its own rules on that. >what bothers me is that the church's rules are viewed as silly . . . Some of the churches rules are silly. Which is no problem; they are updated all the time. Consider what happened to just going to mass after Vatican II. Clearly, the rules catholics live by are not permanently valid; they actually change quite often. Nothing wrong with that. Perhaps some of the sillier rules will change during Vatican III. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #158 September 27, 2005 Sink, you're misreading me and getting yourself worked up over a miscommunication. This'll be the third time I've said it, this time I wont include the joke comment. Relax and take a breath. I do not think you have any issues with any gay people. Sorry you read what I said as a personal comment to you (except the bit in my last post when I asked you about hating gay people, which was a joke that was picked up on by 99% of the people reading it). Are we good? So, how long have you been a homosexual lover? TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #159 September 27, 2005 Quotewell, whatever. Maybe if we were a race of robots we would mindlessly follow everything to the letter regardless of its importance. But in the real world, some things are given greater emphasis than others. For example, I don't see too many even Orthodox Jews making animal holocausts today. I also don't see anyone denouncing the wearing of cotton/polyester blends. Which if you followed every little detail of every law, would be forbidden today (the wearing of cloth of two different fabrics is forbidden in one passage in the Bible, maybe Exodus or Leviticus). The fact is that, right or wrong, we are not automatons, and we can see that there are some things that have greater importance than others. That's why nobody cares about cotton/polyester blends. As for the homosexuality thing, who knows. I have always wondered why everyone gets all uptight about sexuality. When you read the gospels, its clearly not the foremost item on Christs' mind. He makes little or no mention of it in fact. He tends to emphasize things like compassion and kindness to fellow human beings, treating others as you would be treated, love God & recognize your dependence on God, etc. The whole sex thing has gotten blown WAY out of proportion when you compare it to the very small emphasis it has in the Gospels. It seems to me that giving every statement equal emphasis doesn't pan out in the real world. Certainly Jesus was no fundamentalist. Dude, we are on the same side I think. I believe the same thing you do. The religious books we have are good guides, but we must realize the CONTEXT they were written or translated in. We must realize the societal conventions involved that are no longer applicable today. The basic idea of the bible is great(New Testament at least): Be good to each other and do good works. But people get caught up in saying one thing is right while another is wrong yet try to say that following the bible is key. If THAT is key, follow the whole thing or just use it as a guide. I, like you, prefer the guide idea. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #160 September 27, 2005 I like to think of them as a set of plans 'on display' in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #161 September 27, 2005 Look, i'm sorry you're sensitive but I figured you'd know that I'd call you out on hating gay people directly rather than slip it into a comment that i simply worded badly. So, why do you hate gay people so much anyway? *** didn't sound like much of a joke to me. and calling me sensitive is a poor excuse for a lame attempt at humor. how long have I been a gay lover? as long as I've been a practicing christian. 19 years. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #162 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuotewell, whatever. Maybe if we were a race of robots we would mindlessly follow everything to the letter regardless of its importance. But in the real world, some things are given greater emphasis than others. For example, I don't see too many even Orthodox Jews making animal holocausts today. I also don't see anyone denouncing the wearing of cotton/polyester blends. Which if you followed every little detail of every law, would be forbidden today (the wearing of cloth of two different fabrics is forbidden in one passage in the Bible, maybe Exodus or Leviticus). The fact is that, right or wrong, we are not automatons, and we can see that there are some things that have greater importance than others. That's why nobody cares about cotton/polyester blends. As for the homosexuality thing, who knows. I have always wondered why everyone gets all uptight about sexuality. When you read the gospels, its clearly not the foremost item on Christs' mind. He makes little or no mention of it in fact. He tends to emphasize things like compassion and kindness to fellow human beings, treating others as you would be treated, love God & recognize your dependence on God, etc. The whole sex thing has gotten blown WAY out of proportion when you compare it to the very small emphasis it has in the Gospels. It seems to me that giving every statement equal emphasis doesn't pan out in the real world. Certainly Jesus was no fundamentalist. Dude, we are on the same side I think. I believe the same thing you do. The religious books we have are good guides, but we must realize the CONTEXT they were written or translated in. We must realize the societal conventions involved that are no longer applicable today. The basic idea of the bible is great: Be good to each other and do good works. But people get caught up in saying one thing is right while another is wrong yet try to say that following the bible is key. If THAT is key, follow the whole thing or just use it as a guide. I, like you, prefer the guide idea. OMG, we're coming to some perverted form of consensus here people, I feel a group hug coming on.... just as long as none of you grabs my ass! -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #163 September 27, 2005 careful. we might all get banned from SC Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #164 September 27, 2005 Quotecareful. we might all get banned from SC and there would be much rejoicing by some for that... but what a travesty for others... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #165 September 27, 2005 I think it is wrong to keep devout women and gays from a position they are otherwise qualified for, based solely on their sex or sexual orientation. I wouldn't do that. But again, I don't think it's evil/bad/outrageous that the church has its own rules on that*** inflammatory statement coming... women are not qualified for the priesthood... b/c they are women. a woman wanting to be a catholic priest is like a man wanting to give birth to a baby. sexual orientation does not ipso facto disqualify a man from the priesthood. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #166 September 27, 2005 >inflammatory statement coming... women are not qualified for >the priesthood... b/c they are women. And you could use the same logic for blacks, gays, short people, bald people (hey, a bald guy is CERTAINLY not a stand-in for Jesus! He had hair.) And again, there's nothing wrong with a religion believing that. But IMO it is a mistake to try to prove to people who believe in equality that it is a good idea. Might as well try to prove to a devout jew that Jesus is lord. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #167 September 27, 2005 k, we're going round and round here... incidentals of physical appearance have no escatological bearing on the person vis a vis the priesthood, gender does. PM sent. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #168 September 27, 2005 Quotea woman wanting to be a catholic priest is like a man wanting to give birth to a baby. . Well, except for the vagina and womb thing being necessary for childbirth. Unless your argument is that a penis is required for a priest so he can ..........what? TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #169 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuotea woman wanting to be a catholic priest is like a man wanting to give birth to a baby. . Well, except for the vagina and womb thing being necessary for childbirth. Unless your argument is that a penis is required for a priest so he can ..........what? it's an analogy, silly. there is more to being a mother than biological parts just as there is more to being a father than a penis, in this case, a spiritual one... gender is is tied up inextricably w/ this issue. the priest is a representative, a shadow, a figure of not only christ (who was a man) but of God the Father. How can a woman stand in that place? What does the symbol of woman do when put there? It confuses. The symbol of woman is for you and for me, those who are not priests. We, those we are NOT God, are symbolized by woman, by the womb... ones to be receptive to grace, to the movement of God. God is the initiator. See the symbolism? That is why the priest is male. That is why the easter candle is phallic. That is why it is dipped in the large vat of water, symbolic of the womb, impregnating it w/ life, w/ fertility. See it? Catholicism is ripe with sexual symbolism, esp. in the mass and in the priest. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #170 September 27, 2005 Quoteinflammatory statement coming... women are not qualified for the priesthood... b/c they are women. a woman wanting to be a catholic priest is like a man wanting to give birth to a baby. I understand what you're saying, and if a Catholic woman doesn't like that then she can either spend her time trying to change that idea within her religion, or she can disassociate herself from that religion (or she can just sit around and complain that it's not fair). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #171 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteinflammatory statement coming... women are not qualified for the priesthood... b/c they are women. a woman wanting to be a catholic priest is like a man wanting to give birth to a baby. I understand what you're saying, and if a Catholic woman doesn't like that then she can either spend her time trying to change that idea within her religion, or she can disassociate herself from that religion (or she can just sit around and complain that it's not fair). and I'd hate to see a woman spending her time trying to change catholicsm... it's not a democracy and all it really does is create resentment, hatred, anger, etc. best to either accept or move on to a church whose doctrines are more in line w/ hers... there have been folks sitting around for years trying to change the church for years... they get their hopes up only to get them dashed over and over... the whole birth control issue was a big one in the late 60's... so many US priests and catholic theologians began priming the congregations for this big change that was coming, that the vatican was going to open the doors and change it's antiquated views on this issue... then Humanae Vitae came out, reinstating the church's prohibition on BC. And it's been restated and reaffirmed countless times since then. Best to either accept and live within the tenets of the faith or move on to one that fits better. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #172 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuotea woman wanting to be a catholic priest is like a man wanting to give birth to a baby. . Well, except for the vagina and womb thing being necessary for childbirth. Unless your argument is that a penis is required for a priest so he can ..........what? it's an analogy, silly. there is more to being a mother than biological parts just as there is more to being a father than a penis, in this case, a spiritual one... gender is is tied up inextricably w/ this issue. the priest is a representative, a shadow, a figure of not only christ (who was a man) but of God the Father. How can a woman stand in that place? What does the symbol of woman do when put there? It confuses. The symbol of woman is for you and for me, those who are not priests. We, those we are NOT God, are symbolized by woman, by the womb... ones to be receptive to grace, to the movement of God. God is the initiator. See the symbolism? That is why the priest is male. That is why the easter candle is phallic. That is why it is dipped in the large vat of water, symbolic of the womb, impregnating it w/ life, w/ fertility. See it? Catholicism is ripe with sexual symbolism, esp. in the mass and in the priest. Yes, Catholism is ripe with sexual symblosm and fertility rites....borrowed from pagan religions before it. That is a horrible reason to not have women priests, in my opinion. A woman priest would somehow make people think God is a she? I think the countless references to Lord, He, Him, Father, etc would suffice to dispel such a notion.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #173 September 27, 2005 Yes, Catholism is ripe with sexual symblosm and fertility rites....borrowed from pagan religions before it.*** not borrowed... redeemed... as to your later comment, the symbolism is still inconsistent... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #174 September 27, 2005 actually it is about symbolism I guess. In actual fact the church says that God is neither male nor female. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #175 September 27, 2005 Quoteactually it is about symbolism I guess. In actual fact the church says that God is neither male nor female. God the FATHER has no gender, true, although Jesus did. It is telling, is it not, that the term used in the Bible for God is Father? I don't understand why many women (and some men) have problems with that, unless they had shitty dads or husbands or whatever. Look at the passage about husbands loving their wives the way christ loved the church. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
