kelpdiver 2 #26 September 26, 2005 QuoteJust curious, Walt. Why do you think there isn't a single country on the face of the earth that permits the unrestricted use and/or sale of any drug? Are you sure there isn't a single one? Half of Afghanistan's GNP is opium production right now. The Taliban permitted it for most of their regime as well, before suddenly finding a moral issue with it. Columbia at least puts forward some face time on fighting drugs. Not sure about out at the Golden Triangle where it's been planted since the 19th Century. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #27 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteJust curious, Walt. Why do you think there isn't a single country on the face of the earth that permits the unrestricted use and/or sale of any drug? - I was specifically thinking of the United States, but it's a fairly accurate generalization to assume that nearly all countries have laws restricting drug use. Regardless of the laws, though, it is undeniable that there is a big downside to drug use, and I include alcohol and any other intoxicant with that. Laws are just part of the equation. I am all for legalizing all drugs in the U.S. because I don't think the punishment fits the "crime". There are plenty of people who use drugs recreationally that are productive members of society. Throwing them in prison does more harm than good. The drug users that steal to support their habits deserve to be jailed for stealing. Their drug habits may motivate them to commit crimes, but I don't think the drug use either excuses their crimes or makes them more serious. Walt So are you in favor of decriminalizing possesion of small amounts for personal use or legalizing the sale and use of all drugs regardless of the quantity? BTW, I agree that it's stupid to jail someone for simple possesion but how do you reduce the demand otherwise? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #28 September 26, 2005 QuoteSo are you in favor of decriminalizing possesion of small amounts for personal use or legalizing the sale and use of all drugs regardless of the quantity? BTW, I agree that it's stupid to jail someone for simple possesion but how do you reduce the demand otherwise? - Legalize it all, regardless of quantity. Having said that, I agree wholeheartedly with drug testing for those who hold jobs that affect the public safety and whose performance may be impaired by drug or alcohol use. Reducing demand will only come from creating a change in attitudes toward drug use and drug users. There is enough of a downside to drug use--I don't think the law needs to artificially add to that downside. We live in a very drug-oriented society. Got a medical problem? There's a drug for that. Got a mental problem? There's a drug for that too. Bored? There are plenty of drugs for that. We're a quick-fix society and as long as we think that way, drugs are going to have a place. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #29 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteJust curious, Walt. Why do you think there isn't a single country on the face of the earth that permits the unrestricted use and/or sale of any drug? Are you sure there isn't a single one? Half of Afghanistan's GNP is opium production right now. The Taliban permitted it for most of their regime as well, before suddenly finding a moral issue with it. Columbia at least puts forward some face time on fighting drugs. Not sure about out at the Golden Triangle where it's been planted since the 19th Century. Yes, I'm sure there isn't a single country that allows the unrestricted sale and use of drugs. Any idea what woulds happen to a muslim under the Taliban rule if they were caught using drugs? Afghanistan's rate of drug addicts is skyrocketing since the invasion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #30 September 26, 2005 QuoteHaving said that, I agree wholeheartedly with drug testing for those who hold jobs that affect the public safety and whose performance may be impaired by drug or alcohol use. Why the caveat for those holding certain types of jobs? Why shouldn't an employer get to discriminate based on drug use? For ANY job. Except for drug tester. Pirana - Thanks for getting my original point. One question. How many 'recreational narcotics' users do you know? Are they really able to stop if they wanted to (by simply deciding to? I don't believe it in most all cases... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #31 September 26, 2005 QuoteWhy the caveat for those holding certain types of jobs? Why shouldn't an employer get to discriminate based on drug use? For ANY job. Except for drug tester. I don't have a problem with that. Employers should be able to hire (or not hire) anyone they want. I do see a compelling reason to drug test those whose jobs affect public safety, but if any employer wants to test people in other job categories, I see no problem. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #32 September 26, 2005 So you would have no problem if you were on trial for a serious crime and your attorney came into court giggling and told you he's just smoked the best pot ever? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #33 September 26, 2005 QuoteSo you would have no problem if you were on trial for a serious crime and your attorney came into court giggling and told you he's just smoked the best pot ever? - no the real issue with legalization - You hire someone decent. Later they get all strung out and start to perform poorly (Edit: or their clothes start to stink like Otto's jacket). You fire them. They sue you for all you are worth for firing them because they did something legal. Your kids go hungry. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #34 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteSo you would have no problem if you were on trial for a serious crime and your attorney came into court giggling and told you he's just smoked the best pot ever? - no the real issue with legalization - You hire someone decent. Later they get all strung out and start to perform poorly (Edit: or their clothes start to stink like Otto's jacket). You fire them. They sue you for all you are worth for firing them because they did something legal. Your kids go hungry. Oh, well..at least you could still get stoned.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #35 September 26, 2005 Quote no the real issue with legalization - You hire someone decent. Later they get all strung out and start to perform poorly (Edit: or their clothes start to stink like Otto's jacket). You fire them. They sue you for all you are worth for firing them because they did something legal. Your kids go hungry. If you documented their poor performance, it's an open and shut case. A buddy of mine worked retail and cleaned house a lot. His fired for cause victims couldn't even win a hearing for unemployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #36 September 27, 2005 QuoteSo you would have no problem if you were on trial for a serious crime and your attorney came into court giggling and told you he's just smoked the best pot ever? - Of course I would have a problem with that. That doesn't mean that I think there should be public policy to try and prevent every possible instance where substance abuse could affect the public. For some jobs, though, e.g., chemical plant operators, airline pilots, bus drivers, surgeons, etc., there is compelling reason to ensure they are sober. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeryde13 0 #37 September 27, 2005 thats terrible all right....thats just unfair for white people to be targeted like that.......thats just..well......ummm....kinda like what happens to non- white people here ._________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #38 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteSo you would have no problem if you were on trial for a serious crime and your attorney came into court giggling and told you he's just smoked the best pot ever? - Of course I would have a problem with that. That doesn't mean that I think there should be public policy to try and prevent every possible instance where substance abuse could affect the public. For some jobs, though, e.g., chemical plant operators, airline pilots, bus drivers, surgeons, etc., there is compelling reason to ensure they are sober. Walt So how would you write legislation to differenciate who can get high and when and who can't and when? It seems the number of people who could use drugs anytime, anyplace is dwindling. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #39 September 27, 2005 Quote Yes, I'm sure there isn't a single country that allows the unrestricted sale and use of drugs. Alcohol, caffeine, and nicotine are all drugs. Or were you just talking about illegal drugs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #40 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuote Yes, I'm sure there isn't a single country that allows the unrestricted sale and use of drugs. Alcohol, caffeine, and nicotine are all drugs. Or were you just talking about illegal drugs? I think my statement sorta speaks for itself. What, are you high or something? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #41 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote Yes, I'm sure there isn't a single country that allows the unrestricted sale and use of drugs. Alcohol, caffeine, and nicotine are all drugs. Or were you just talking about illegal drugs? I think my statement sorta speaks for itself. What, are you high or something? - Seriously though, why should marijuana be outlawed while alcohol is not? Where does the line get drawn on which drugs to outlaw and which to allow? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #42 September 27, 2005 QuoteSeriously though, why should marijuana be outlawed while alcohol is not? Where does the line get drawn on which drugs to outlaw and which to allow? Thats what I'm asking. Why is there no country on earth that allows unrestricted use/sale of drugs? Why do you think this is? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #43 September 27, 2005 QuoteSo how would you write legislation to differenciate who can get high and when and who can't and when? It seems the number of people who could use drugs anytime, anyplace is dwindling. - Beats me--I'm neither a lawyer nor a legislator. The bottom line is that there are plenty of jobs where workers are in a position that can directly affect public safety and those people need to not have their on-the-job judgement/performance impaired. Taking a look at our sport: - Riggers - Pilots - Instructors/jumpmasters - Tandem instructors (for damn sure!!!) Is it reasonable to expect people doing those jobs to stay sober? I think it is--particularly pilots and tandem instructors. I understand your point that there would be an enormous amount of hair-splitting and difficulty in enforcement, but I think that would be infinitely preferrable to the situation we have now where people are imprisoned for drug involvement. As far as I'm concerned, if someone wants to use intoxicants then that's fine, but they need to stay away from jobs that affect public safety. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #44 September 27, 2005 I'm trying to think of a single job that I would be OK with the person performing it high on LSD, herion, crack etc. Can't come up with one. Especially if I was the employer. Could I be sued for firing someone legally high on LSD? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #45 September 27, 2005 QuoteI'm trying to think of a single job that I would be OK with the person performing it high on LSD, herion, crack etc. Can't come up with one. Especially if I was the employer. Could I be sued for firing someone legally high on LSD? - You could fire them for poor performance or non-performance of their jobs. I wouldn't be all that concerned about the issue of firing someone for legal drug use. I can legally own firearms. Could I reasonably be fired for carrying a gun in most workplaces? I think so. I can legally drink. Could I reasonably be fired for showing up at work drunk? Again, I think so. Could you be sued? As far as I can tell, anybody can be sued for nearly anything, no matter how ridiculous. At least that's the way it seems to be in the U.S. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #46 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnyone see the movie Midnight express? wanna do drugs on holiday? Midnight Express wasn't about doing drugs on holiday. It was about smuggling them. Smuggling is one of the stupidest things you can do. Smuggling hash is even stupider. You can do drugs on holiday. You just can't be a dumbass about it. As I told someone else: If there is someone on the street selling you ten different kinds of drugs, he's selling you one thing: it's either salt, a mugging, or a jail sentence. Just don't even bother. There's legitimate drug dealers in every country. Hi Unformed thanks for the clarification. "Legit drug dealers in every country", Retailers selling to tourists don't have to worry about customer loyalty to stay in business. "Legit drug dealers in every country" Thats like looking for a virgin prostitute Everyone was a virgin at least once R.I.P. Haha.... yeah that sounds really stupid ... i guess I should reread before posting ... what i mean by legit is not shady. there are not as shady drug dealers, obviously not any legit drug dealers ...This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #47 September 27, 2005 QuoteI'm trying to think of a single job that I would be OK with the person performing it high on LSD, herion, crack etc. Can't come up with one. Especially if I was the employer. Circus clown? Chipendale dancer? Bartender? Author? Catholic Priest? Think harder! BTW, these drugs have dramatically different effects on the person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #48 September 27, 2005 a drug being legal doesn't mean an emplyer has to accept a person being on it while at work. would you allow your employee to be drunk while working? I highly doubt it. But that's a legal drug.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #49 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteI'm trying to think of a single job that I would be OK with the person performing it high on LSD, herion, crack etc. Can't come up with one. Especially if I was the employer. Circus clown? Chipendale dancer? Bartender? Author? Catholic Priest? Think harder! BTW, these drugs have dramatically different effects on the person. So if you owned a bar, you'd be OK with your bartender being high on LSD or heroin or crack while working? My guess is you wouldn't be in business very long. Same with every job you listed. Are you seiously saying if you would be oK with one of your Cipendale dancers being high on heroin and trying to perform? Give me a break!! - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #50 September 27, 2005 QuoteCould I be sued for firing someone legally high on LSD? I could be sued for firing some one illegally high on LSD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
