Talk about the debating the Bible HERE

[windcatcher 0]

Here ya go guys, a new thread!

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[AlexCrowley 0]

eh you're just upset you started 'THE THREAD THAT WOULD NOT DIE!'

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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eh you're just upset you started 'THE THREAD THAT WOULD NOT DIE!'

BACK TO THE OTHER THREAD!

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

God spoke to me in my sleep last night and he told me that he was very troubled with all this Bible talk here on DZ.COM and was frustrated in how humans have changed his message through man made religions. He instructed me to write a new book to be followed by all humans. This book will be called The Burble and it should be ready for mass consumption very soon.

Sounds crazy huh? So if you don't believe me (that God has instructed me to write The Burble), then why do you believe something which was written so so long ago under the same pretense?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[pirana 0]

I would like to be a contributing editor for The Burble. Right after I wrap up my transition from Chartered Accountant to Lion Tamer.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[funjumper101 15]

I pulled this list of questions off of a usenet newsgroup some time ago. I didn't write it. I found the questions interesting and thought-provoking. There are 157 questions. I'll post them 20 at a time. The answers should be interesting...

begin quoted text>>>

SO YOU WANT ME TO BECOME A CHRISTIAN?

I come here to combat the fraud and illusion of your conventional, institutionalized religion. As with all such religions, your institution moves toward cowardice, it moves toward mediocrity, inertia, and self-satisfaction. -Frank Herbert, Children of Dune

If you're reading this booklet, it most likely means I've given it to you because you were proselytizing to me and you are a Christian. I'm giving you this paper to save us both some time; you see, I'm not a Christian, although I used to be. I don't belong to any religion that you could name; I have developed my own faith as an ongoing process of study, discussion, experience, prayer, meditation, and heartfelt searching.

Since I used to be a Christian, I do know quite a bit about the religion, although I might not know much about your particular sect. I became a non-Christian because I didn't like what I knew about the Christian religion. If you are interested in converting me, you have to settle certain problems for me. Specifically, you have to answer the questions below. Answers to each question should be typed or neatly handwritten on separate sheets of paper.

Try to answer each question in 100 words or less. This is because one of the reasons I left Christianity is that it was so complex, and I've found that the simplest answer to a question is usually the right one.

Quotes from scripture are OK as long as you can refute other quotes from scripture that contradict the passage you are quoting. If you return this paper to me personally, or if you mail it to me, and if I think that your answers may justify my return to Christianity, then I will get in touch with you.

You should also study the references listed at the end of this document, as you will be quizzed on them if I decide I like your answers to these questions. They describe, in part, my own religious beliefs, and I don't see why I should bother to learn about your religious beliefs if you won't take the time to learn about mine.

The questions follow. Under no circumstances will "The Lord works in
mysterious ways" or other arguments in that vein be acceptable. If a
question does not apply to your particular sect, explain why.

Thank you!

QUESTIONS

1. If necessary, explain any unique beliefs (i.e. different from all other Christian sects) your sect has about the nature of your god, heaven, hell, the Bible, the Holy Spirit/Ghost, Satan, etc.

2. Explain why your god's only son had to die so we can go to the Christian heaven when we die.

3. Did everyone who died before Jesus died go to Hell? Justify your answer.

4. If you are a Catholic, justify the Inquisition and other persecutions of so-called "heretics" throughout the centuries, concentrating on why the Pelagianists, the Priscillianists, and the Manichaeans were persecuted. If you are a Protestant, justify the witch trials and the brutal subjugation of native Americans by Protestants. If you are a member of an Eastern Orthodox church, justify the persecutions of the Old Believers after the reforms of the seventeenth century.

5. Explain why your sect (whether Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox) pursued, tortured, and killed people who were not Christian.

6. Explain why your sect (whether Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox) pursued, tortured, and killed people who were not members of your particular sect.

7. Explain why I should believe that your god is purely good and completely without evil when the only real information we have about him is the Bible, which clearly describes him as both good and evil. (See Isaiah 30:32, Luke 14:26, Numbers 31:17-18, Matthew 10:34, Amos 3:6, Deuteronomy 18:8, Deuteronomy 20:16, Exodus 20:5, Exodus 32:27, Isaiah 45:7, Psalms 52:5, Luke 22:36, and Jeremiah 18:11 for a small sample of Biblical passages which describe Jehovah as having an evil morality at times).

8. Explain why Jesus made apparently racist statements (see Mark 7:25-29).

9. Explain why the Bible seems to support discrimination against women. Your answer must deal with 1 Cor. 11 and 1 Tim. 2:11.

10. Explain why the Bible seems to support slavery. Your answer must deal with 1 Peter 2.

11. Explain why children should submit to their parents' decisions even when those decisions are evil. Your answer must deal with Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Proverbs 13:24, and Hebrews 12:7-8.

12. Explain why, if your god loves us all, more than half of us are going to Hell after we die. Specifically, refute or explain the following words of Christ, as presented in the New Testament: "Many are called but few are chosen," and "Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth unto salvation, and few there be that find it." If your god loves all of us, couldn't he find a better way?

13. Explain what type of offense could possibly justify eternal, unbearable torture in Hell; if your sect does not believe in Hell, then refute every passage in the Old and New Testaments which describes Hell (such as 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 and Revelation 20:15).

14. Explain how your god can be both just and merciful, when these terms apparently contradict each other.

15. Explain why possession by demons and/or other evil spirits was common during the time of Jesus, but hardly mentioned in the Old Testament, and apparently has been explained completely away today by things such as epilepsy and schizophrenia.

16. Explain how, if the personality resides in the soul, things like drugs and brain damage can affect someone's personality.

17. If heaven is a place where everyone is perfectly happy, then explain how I could be happy in heaven if I had loved ones in Hell.

18. What is Heaven like?

19. What is Hell like?

20. Explain why original sin exists. Why should I be eternally tortured for something that distant ancestors did over six thousand years ago? If you believe that children are born stained because they were conceived sexually, explain why I would be punished for something my parents did. If this does not apply to your sect, explain why.

[chadkal 0]

Wow,.......this will be good,..........I don't have time to answer this right now, but I do lok forwardto coming back to this and posting my answer.

Please wait on adding new questions till I have time to fully answer these.

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I am a greek midget

[sinker 0]

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God spoke to me in my sleep last night and he told me that he was very troubled with all this Bible talk here on DZ.COM and was frustrated in how humans have changed his message through man made religions. He instructed me to write a new book to be followed by all humans. This book will be called The Burble and it should be ready for mass consumption very soon.

Sounds crazy huh? So if you don't believe me (that God has instructed me to write The Burble), then why do you believe something which was written so so long ago under the same pretense?

we don't believe you b/c well, you're from... canada... j/k man

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[SpeedRacer 1]

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2. Explain why, if your god loves us all, more than half of us are going to Hell after we die. Specifically, refute or explain the following words of Christ, as presented in the New Testament: "Many are called but few are chosen," and "Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth unto salvation, and few there be that find it." If your god loves all of us, couldn't he find a better way?

He did!

Speed Racer
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[CanuckInUSA 0]

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we don't believe you b/c well, you're from... canada...

Watch out for you're extremely close to commiting the worst sin outlined in The Burble and will be damned to hell for eternity having to listen to Richard Simmons talk all day long. Trust me, you don't want to go to The Burble's hell.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[sinker 0]

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we don't believe you b/c well, you're from... canada...

Watch out for you're extremely close to commiting the worst sin outlined in The Burble and will be damned to hell for eternity having to listen to Richard Simmons talk all day long.

OMG!! That would be a hell worse than the one outlined in the Bible! (BTW, I happen to like Canada, except their antigunnyness... I'm up there a bit for work, London, Toronto, BC, Halifax, St. John's, don't care for Quebec much, but I'm sure you understand that...)

BTW, you working on any more BASE vids? that first one rocked.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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BTW, you working on any more BASE vids? that first one rocked.

Nope, I ran out of footage.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[sinker 0]

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BTW, you working on any more BASE vids? that first one rocked.

Nope, I ran out of footage.

too bad... maybe after you re-lo to the GWN* you can make us another...


(* great white north)

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[masterblaster72 0]

Hi Windcatcher,

So what do you think of funjumper101's questions? They seem pretty challenging. I know it's a lot to answer, but I for one would be interested in hearing your answer to any one or two of them.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[masterblaster72 0]

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BTW, you working on any more BASE vids? that first one rocked.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nope, I ran out of footage.

Got a link to any of those videos? Thanks...

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Got a link to any of those videos? Thanks...

Go to www.skydivingmovies.com, login and then click on the following video links:

This is the day
B Team
Bellas II

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[victory 0]

I have often read the dropzone forums, and this discussion has caused me to participate.

All of you have opinions. Why wouldn't you? We have a life to live and a death to figure out. One thing we all should keep in mind is that nobody else in this forum or on this present earth is going to lay in our grave for us. Death is our appointment. Seek the truth, and if you believe in God, pray that He will soften your heart to His Word and lead you to the truth.

If you've never read the Bible and want to check it out, start by reading John in the New Testament. The Gospels were written, by God's grace from four perspectives. Matthew was a Jew and directed his message to his people. Mark was a Roman. Luke was a physician and focused on the physical suffering he saw Christ go through. John wrote to a broader group. 2 Timothy 3:16 says that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God".

Answer to the 3rd question from funjumper101.
All those before Christ looked for and believed in His 1st coming by faith, which is addressed in Hebrews 11 and much of the Bible. The entire book of Hebrews talks about the clear distinction of how God works with New Testament believers verses Old. We're all saved by faith. Just as we who are living after Christ look back and believe in what what He did for us on the cross, those who lived before Him looked ahead and believed in His coming and what He would do.

The other question I will partially answer now is #17. All of us have or will experience the passing of loved ones. It's hard. But the one person who we can count on to be our best friend and Savior is Jesus Christ, who understands our grief and thoughts. There are many words that can be said here, but as far as heaven goes, it says in Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What will Heaven be like?
1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

For those of you who would like to listen to the "John" online or look up answers to all the above questions from funjumper101, check out http://www.bible.com. Open your hearts!

I have answers for all the other questions already formed in my head ... it's just a matter of time. I will clarify any questions soon.

Best wishes to you all. Natalie

[masterblaster72 0]

I can't say I'm convinced, but if nothing else those are some pretty thoughtful answers. Cheers.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[masterblaster72 0]

I can't wait to get into BASE...those diving board jumps off the bridge are SICK, and that freeflying in Bellas II is second to none.

Awesome videos, my compliments.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[pirana 0]

Quote

I have often read the dropzone forums, and this discussion has caused me to participate.

All of you have opinions. Why wouldn't you? We have a life to live and a death to figure out. One thing we all should keep in mind is that nobody else in this forum or on this present earth is going to lay in our grave for us. Death is our appointment. Seek the truth, and if you believe in God, pray that He will soften your heart to His Word and lead you to the truth.

If you've never read the Bible and want to check it out, start by reading John in the New Testament. The Gospels were written, by God's grace from four perspectives. Matthew was a Jew and directed his message to his people. Mark was a Roman. Luke was a physician and focused on the physical suffering he saw Christ go through. John wrote to a broader group. 2 Timothy 3:16 says that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God".

Answer to the 3rd question from funjumper101.
All those before Christ looked for and believed in His 1st coming by faith, which is addressed in Hebrews 11 and much of the Bible. The entire book of Hebrews talks about the clear distinction of how God works with New Testament believers verses Old. We're all saved by faith. Just as we who are living after Christ look back and believe in what what He did for us on the cross, those who lived before Him looked ahead and believed in His coming and what He would do.

The other question I will partially answer now is #17. All of us have or will experience the passing of loved ones. It's hard. But the one person who we can count on to be our best friend and Savior is Jesus Christ, who understands our grief and thoughts. There are many words that can be said here, but as far as heaven goes, it says in Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What will Heaven be like?
1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

For those of you who would like to listen to the "John" online or look up answers to all the above questions from funjumper101, check out http://www.bible.com. Open your hearts!

I have answers for all the other questions already formed in my head ... it's just a matter of time. I will clarify any questions soon.

Best wishes to you all. Natalie

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as far as thoughtful words, but this is basically quoting scripture and using the Bible to prove itself. The Bible is nothing more than a tautology when used in this manner. It is using assumptions as evidence and only proves that believing is a matter of faith. Believing is not proof of anything other than what you believe. Having faith is what some people need, and if they need it and have it, that is a good thing. However, it does not translate to supporting the level of ignorance that some display in using literal interpretation of the Bible to declare truthful what are obvious falsehoods about the natural world.

That is where my angst comes from regarding those that wish to insert Biblical writings about the natural world into a science curriculum.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[windcatcher 0]

okay, those are some really good questions...call me whatever you want, but I am not going to try and answer them.

*1. I am not good at debating
*2. It would be pointless for me to try and answer those questions, because even if you had proof of God you would still disbelieve. Accepting God is a matter of faith, and no amount of "evidence" will help you see that, because you will believe what you want to believe regardless, and I don't want to cram anything down your throat.
Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"---unfortunately most people don;t get to see how wonderful he is until they believe

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[AlexCrowley 0]

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Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"---unfortunately most people don;t get to see how wonderful he is until they believe

I think thats because the church created so much dogmatic BS around some very basic principles that it offends many peoples sense of morals and insults their intellects. Taking an intellectual step backwards to fit into a claustrophobic and provably internally inconsistent belief system doesnt appeal to many people. Not because it is too difficult to follow those basic teachings that I mentioned earlier, but because the Church (those established businesses - catholic, baptist, protestant etc) no longer accurately represents those values.

The majority of humans, regardless of religion, naturally gravitate towards the 10 commandmants (which are similar to other religions rules for community) - I dont really have time to expand on this concept, but to me this says that humanity on the whole is more than able to accept a moral structure, be it spiritual or mundane, that makes sense. Christianity, as it is preached by the traditional churches, does not and cannot make sense while in it's current incarnation.

There will always be those that will explain their reality in concrete terms with science and rationality. But there will always be a large number of people, perhaps even the majority, who will look outside of themselves for a system that makes sense to their spirituality.

Afterall, as humans we are wired for religious experience, whether it is a chemical inside our brain that generate the illusion of religious experience, or that God, evolution or gods put that mechanism in there as a way to enable communication with higher powers - the end result is the same: as individuals we are able to enter a state that inspires us to strive to be better humans.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[rehmwa 2]

Is it possible to link all these post to a single post that just automatically deletes itself every 5 days? Or even better, just a thread that has about 20 posts that operate in a continuous loop?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AlexCrowley 0]

we have that in the 'I'm a christian and proud of it' post, but it doesnt do the deletion.

You'll have to forgive me repeating myself today, it's been a very long 30 hours.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[windcatcher 0]

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the Church (those established businesses - catholic, baptist, protestant etc) no longer accurately represents those values.

Ya know, I can agree that sometimes this happens unfortunately. The Church, known as the body of Christ, doesn't always represent Jesus and His commandments; but also realize that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian really is one, and that does play a part in how the body of Christ is perceived.

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Christianity, as it is preached by the traditional churches, does not and cannot make sense while in it's current incarnation.

again, I agree with you. Christianity doesn't make sense...at least not until the Holy Spirit plays a part in revealing the truth that is in the Word of God. The Bible says "the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing"--makes sense right? What nonbelievers fail to see many times, is that there is a spiritual realm out there they cannot see nor sense. Failing to recognize that a human spirit exists, apart from the body, shows that all we see and know is the "reality" in which we can only experience with our senses.

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Afterall, as humans we are wired for religious experience

Yes, God did wire humans for an experience--not religious, but having a relationship with Him. You ever wonder why people want to live forever or go to heaven? Because God wired our brains for that; we shouldn't have to die----because an eternity does exist.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...