Vectran 550 vs 750

[tzaman 0]

Hey everyone, this is actually my first post after stalking these forums for about two years :)

I'm buying my first rig (have ~100 jumps, last 35 on a 170 Volt with fairly consistent standup landings within designated spot) and upon talking with more experienced skydivers and riggers at my DZ I decided I'm going to go with a Vector. I've chosen V349, Safire2 169 as the main and PD reserve 176.

Since based on Vector sizing chart, optimal fit for V349 are 149s (which is what I'm aiming for as my final downsize once I have enough experience), I'm wondering whether it makes sense to order thinner Vectran lines in order to remove some bulk from the pack.

I'm jumping WL ~1.25 and have no problems with relining after 300 jumps or so.

And the question: what are the potential downsides of going with Vectran 550 compared to 750?

Thank you!

[RMURRAY 1]

i would buy a used canopy. do not 'lock into' a Safire. lots of good ones out there. easier to pack and easier on the wallet when you sell.

[tzaman 0]

Thanks for the advice, but packing-wise I have no problems whatsoever, I've observed and asked (too much probably) skydivers around me since completion of the AFF, so I'm 100% confident in my pack jobs. Regarding the wallet, let's assume it's not an issue, so if in a year I discover another canopy that suits me better, I will have no problems changing.

[gowlerk 2,190]

Wallet full or empty, you should consider a used canopy. It will be a lot easier to pack into a container that will be full.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[riggerrob 643]

The difference in volume between 550 and 750 Vectran is insignificant, but 750 last hundreds more jumps.
Greater volume differences when you chose different types of line: Dacron, Spectra, HMA or whatever will be fashionable next week.

Also don't bother "locking in" container volume too early. You would b le far wiser to tell the factory which canopies you have, then let the factory decide which size container will best fit them.

[tzaman 0]

I've sat next to the dealer when he was filling in the order form for the Vector, but his English is not that good, so I don't know his further correspondence with UPT (if any) - the order form has canopy (main + reserve) fields which we filled out, but I don't know to what extent UPT considers it.

Maybe I should contact UPT on my own to be 100% sure things are moving in the right direction?

[gowlerk 2,190]

The UPT sizing chart indicates that a Safire 169, and most other similar sized canopies will fit into your V349. No matter what lines you choose. It also lists the PDR176 as standard fitting. Looking at this information it appears that your choices are correct and that you should have no problems with this combination.

UPT will probably look at the canopies information and have nothing to say about it because it is correct. Here is a link to the UPT sizing chart to help you out.

http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/CHART_00037___Rig_Sizing_Chart.pdf

Your original question about line types was very well answered by riggerrob. Get the heavier line, it will make very little difference in pack volume, but a large difference in line life.

My earlier comment about a used canopy was just a hint to make your life a little easier. A new 170 sized 9 cell canopy will work, it will just be more effort to pack.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[LucaD 0]

If you are going with Safire, my suggestion would be to consider the Safire 3. I jumped both, and in my experience the 3 just flies better.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

I'm jumping WL ~1.25 and have no problems with relining after 300 jumps or so.

I have never seen a canopy need a reline after just 300 jumps or so with the 580 Vectran (which is what you are calling 550...) even in the desert.

A canopy lined with 580 flies better than a canopy lined with 750 Vectran. It has nothing to do with "fashion".The canopy will rotate better at the flare because there is less parasitic drag from smaller lines.

A canopy with 750lb Vectran will only last about 100 jumps longer than the 580 on average, just so you know.

The benefit of the much smaller pack volume along with the higher performance of the smaller lines is the route I recommend.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[gowlerk 2,190]

Quote

A canopy lined with 580 flies better than a canopy lined with 750 Vectran. It has nothing to do with "fashion".The canopy will rotate better at the flare because there is less parasitic drag from smaller lines.

Probably true. But at 100 jumps and under a 170 canopy, completely irrelevant. Except perhaps as a fashion statement.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Probably true. But at 100 jumps and under a 170 canopy, completely irrelevant. Except perhaps as a fashion statement.

The bigger the canopy, the more total line length wise which makes more parasitic drag. This parasitic drag changes the angle of attack to some degree and has nothing to do with fashion, but more on engineering.

Fashion must be a Canadian thing...


MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[tzaman 0]

gowlerk

Except perhaps as a fashion statement.

I wasn't trying to make one. I was concerned about safety implications of the choice. For example, a rigger at my DZ told me line twists are slightly harder to kick out of thinner lines.

[gowlerk 2,190]

tzaman

***Except perhaps as a fashion statement.

I wasn't trying to make one. I was concerned about safety implications of the choice. For example, a rigger at my DZ told me line twists are slightly harder to kick out of thinner lines.

This is actually a little funny. Your first post, and a reasonable one at that, leads to conflicting advice from two of the best advisors on here. MEL is a very highly skilled active cutting edge rigger involved in many aspects of high performance skydiving. Riggerrob is a grey beard who has been doing it for many years and has seen many things come and go.

In this case they are both right. The lighter line is more high performance. And it is also currently fashionable to go with higher performance materials, even when they are not needed in the particular application. The word "fashion" here is being used in a slightly cynical way. There is a balance to be struck between strength and performance. Most people would choose the heavier line in the situation you are in, but if going a little faster in your swoop is what you want out your Safire 169 the lighter line is the way to go. In the end this is just a minor one of the many choices you will be making.

In my experience the smaller the line the more line twists will be generated in any given situation. Are they harder to get out of? Not if you know how to do it. Smaller lines won't start unwinding all by themselves like heavier lines do. But they do respond fine. Methods of getting out of line twists belong in another forum, so I won't start on that here.

You are asking great questions and seem to have put a lot of thought into your choices. There is nothing but good here. If you stay in the sport you may end up involved in rigging as well. You seem like the type.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[tzaman 0]

Thank you for clarification (and kind words) - I think I'll go with the 580 (I said 550 because Safire3 order form lists 550 and 750).

I'm not after high performance but based on my relatively low number of expected jumps per year (50-80) I think I'll appreciate any good choice I make now for a good number of years.

I'm quite obsessed with all the details really - about 14 days ago I even asked a friend who's a rigger whether I can observe him assemble his rig after he purchased a new container. I must say it was a very illuminating saturday afternoon: 3-rings, RSL, AAD, Reserve, Soft links... it all makes sense now, and I'm definitely doing it again.

[hackish 8]

I'd go with the 750 lines. At 100 jumps I think you'd be hard pressed to tell. It's like asking a student pilot to tell you if the school airplane is flying better because it was just washed and waxed.

On a technical sense, none of what you've been told is wrong, just that the 2mph of forward speed and the 0.5 degree of glide angle isn't worth it in your world. The downside is that the lines will wear quicker and will visually appear less new when you are ready to sell it.

-Michael

[RMURRAY 1]

when it comes to lines, parachutes i would listen to MEL. a true expert imo.

edit and that extra 2mph (or whatever it is) over lets say 4 minutes on a short spot could prevent a problem before it even occurs.

[pchapman 279]

masterrigger1

A canopy with 750lb Vectran will only last about 100 jumps longer than the 580 on average, just so you know.

That little? I know you have a lot of experience with lines and that's surprising.

What kind of lifetimes have you seen? The criteria for replacement is tricky, as for how fuzzy is too fuzzy.

[PeteS 0]

Seems like IMHO that there is more drag during opening with the thicker line when new. I would also venture to guess that as the line gets fuzzy, you will have even more drag on the slider grommets, due to line circumference, producing a variable of inconsistent openings. The slider may stay up longer, giving any jumper imput time to manifest off heading openings. At the end of useful life of the lines, tension knots will be an issue also. Sure thinner line won't last quite as long in a "use it til it breaks" environment, but the time span of issues caused by wear will be of shorter duration. So, light to moderate wing loading should use thinner line. Heavyweight would be better at higher wing loads but depending on opening characteristics, pack volume, performance, ect. not always true.