TequilaGirl 0 #26 October 19, 2005 The children won't starve - if the fucked up mother gets sterilized..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #27 October 19, 2005 Quote>Why are christians so afraid of sex? Because it's a sin. Christians (catholics especially) are big about defining a lot of things as sins and then making people feel guilty about them; the church then fills the manufactured need to repent. That's bullshit bill... some are and some aren't. Catholics who KNOW what the church teaches about sex aren't at all afraid of sex. Sex isn't a sin, it's the most wonderful, sacred thing God gave us. But what a lot of people do w/ it is sinful. A manufactured need to repent? Puhleeze... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #28 October 19, 2005 QuoteThe real issue here is that these people are not given access to pregnancy prevention in the first place. Schools are prevented from teaching about birth control. States prohibit paying for birth control. Condom use is stigmatized. It's all a result of the christian fear of sex IMO. But that brings up a question. Why are christians so afraid of sex? It's been proven time and time again, sex ed and access to BC works to eliminate poverty. So many of the religious right are apparently uneasy with facts though... christians aren't afraid of sex... well some maybe, but I'm sure not... my wife isn't... none of my friends who are xian are... instead, there is a profound reverence for sex, for it's creative capabilities, for it's unitive powers... there is not this laissez-faire attitude about it "relax, it's just sex" that we see in permeated in our culture... it's a shame you equate that w/ fear. so let's talk about mandatory BC... and all the risks it subjects women to, esp. if you smoke, which many on welfare do, use drugs, which many on welfare do, drink alcohol, which many on welfare do, etc... let's look at the link b/t BC and breast cancer, stroke, heart attack, etc. Let's look at when BC fails... break-through ovuluations occur, condoms burst... do we then mandate abortion? And what about those risks? Perforated uterus, bleeding, possible sterility, post-abortion syndrome, etc. How about we work more on educating people on self-control, getting off welfare in the first place. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,534 #29 October 19, 2005 Maybe take the middle ground, and talk about the free and easy access to both BC and education. Not everyone is capable of self-control (how many of us are posting on dz.com from work?). I suppose we can punish them for that, or punish ourselves for that -- oh wait! we are! Make the best choice the easiest. But make the ones that benefit the largest number of people also easy. Make the choice that benefits the smallest number the hardest one whenever possible. If you can't do that, then make the others even easier, and demonstrate the benefit. But don't just ignore one whole section because it's not ideal. Life and people are not ideal. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #30 October 19, 2005 QuoteMaybe take the middle ground, and talk about the free and easy access to both BC and education. Not everyone is capable of self-control (how many of us are posting on dz.com from work?). I suppose we can punish them for that, or punish ourselves for that -- oh wait! we are! Make the best choice the easiest. But make the ones that benefit the largest number of people also easy. Make the choice that benefits the smallest number the hardest one whenever possible. If you can't do that, then make the others even easier, and demonstrate the benefit. But don't just ignore one whole section because it's not ideal. Life and people are not ideal. Wendy W. a very reasonable post... only prob is, where I live, bc AND education is readily available for those who want it... the prob is, it takes some motivation, some discipline... here, if they want it, they can have it. to me, welfare should have never become a long term program... short term only... get 'em off the roles man. educate, train, get 'em working. produce more than you consume. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,070 #31 October 19, 2005 >Catholics who KNOW what the church teaches about sex aren't at all >afraid of sex. The only people who made it through my high school not scared to death of sex were the people who didn't listen to the Marianists who taught there. I recall Brother Karl on the subject: "Look, I could tell you lots about birth control and all. But they all fail. And there are diseases. The one way to not get into trouble you'll regret the rest of your life is DON'T DO IT." That point was hammered home repeatedly. Thus, kids from my high school approached sex the way most kids approach cocaine. >A manufactured need to repent? Puhleeze... Are people born with sin? (per the catholic church) How can sins can be forgiven? (again, per the catholic church.) What is an indulgence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #32 October 19, 2005 Are people born with sin? (per the catholic church) How can sins can be forgiven? (again, per the catholic church.) What is an indulgence? *** the answers to those questions lead you to call it "manufactured." That isn't the only way to look at this. It isn't the reality of the situation. as for kids having some fear of diseases, unwanted pregnancies, etc., you say that like it's a BAD thing! -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ReBirth 0 #33 October 19, 2005 Quoteas for kids having some fear of diseases, unwanted pregnancies, etc., you say that like it's a BAD thing! It is. When you use scare tactics to "train" someone, the first time they find out it's not as bad as you made it out to be, they think everything you said is a lie. It's the same thing with pot. People claim it's a gateway drug. And it is in a sense. Most people who do hard drugs, tried pot first (but not vice versa). But many times, they try pot, see that it's not as bad as it's made out to be, and then figure coke and lsd must not be as bad as they're portrayed either. When in reality, they're probably worse. Our nation lives in a culture of fear. It's sad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,070 #34 October 19, 2005 >the answers to those questions lead you to call it "manufactured." > That isn't the only way to look at this. It isn't the reality of the > situation. The reality of the situation is that newborn babies haven't done anything bad that anyone could hold against them. Yet the church considers them to be sinners; remission and forgiveness can only come through baptism and (later) confession. That's how they manufacture sin, and provide a complementary service to remove that sin. Pretty good racket if you ask me. >as for kids having some fear of diseases, unwanted pregnancies, >etc., you say that like it's a BAD thing! Having fewer diseases and fewer unwanted pregnancies is a good thing. The approach that the Marianists took to the issue was to scare the crap out of the kids. That resulted in christians who are afraid of sex, as educated by a branch of catholicism dedicated to education. Hence, good catholics who are educated by catholics start out with a fear of sex, which is why so many catholics are afraid of sex. I agree that people smart enough to think on their own may well not pick up such a fear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #35 October 19, 2005 It is. When you use scare tactics to "train" someone, the first time they find out it's not as bad as you made it out to be, they think everything you said is a lie. *** I hardly would say that presenting kids w/ the truth can be called using scare tactics... kids SHOULD be told about unwanted pregnancies, what it's like, what STDs are like, that AIDS will KILL you, that herpes last a lifetime, syphylis will make you insane... that you could get PID and not ever be able to have kids... scare tactics? how about the truth... these are truths... kids are dying b/c people AREN'T properly educating kids and kids DON'T have a healthy respect and fear of the awesome power they have in their sexuality. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #36 October 19, 2005 The reality of the situation is that newborn babies haven't done anything bad that anyone could hold against them. Yet the church considers them to be sinners; remission and forgiveness can only come through baptism and (later) confession. That's how they manufacture sin, and provide a complementary service to remove that sin. Pretty good racket if you ask me. *** that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ReBirth 0 #37 October 19, 2005 Quotekids SHOULD be told about unwanted pregnancies, what it's like, what STDs are like, that AIDS will KILL you, that herpes last a lifetime, syphylis will make you insane... that you could get PID and not ever be able to have kids... all true...and they should. But you need to also include the information that it is possible to have sex safely with someone you love even if you haven't walked down an aisle and had it blessed by some guy in a dress yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,070 #38 October 19, 2005 >that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... Hey, it wasn't my idea to saddle newborns with a load of sin. >and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. There are levels of understanding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #39 October 19, 2005 If things were up to me, welfare WOULD continue to exsist, however there would be more work force prep, education, finanical, and family training then currently is available. Time frames and a payment tier, more money at first, throughout work training and work force preperation payments and benefits would become less. The family on welfare would recieve information on BC and if it is something they want, be provided with BC. Families would have enough time to get on their feet, and learn how to remain on their feet so they wouldnt have to go back to welfare. I love my country for the certain freedoms I have, which include the freedoms to use BC or not. If I had wanted 16 kids , I like that in this country I could. Not everyone on welfare is on it because they want to live off the tax payers. People all fall on hard times, and some need welfare services, And it is a sad day when anyone looks at a pregnancy , planned or unplanned as a unhappy thing.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #40 October 19, 2005 Quote>that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... Hey, it wasn't my idea to saddle newborns with a load of sin. >and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. There are levels of understanding. ... including "wrong," "tainted," "skewed," "distored" -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #41 October 20, 2005 QuoteThe reality of the situation is that newborn babies haven't done anything bad that anyone could hold against them. Yet the church considers them to be sinners; remission and forgiveness can only come through baptism and (later) confession. That's how they manufacture sin, and provide a complementary service to remove that sin. Pretty good racket if you ask me. *** that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. It seems to me that it's no more pessimistic than telling people the truth about the dangers of sex. I agree that we need to educate teenagers. But unfortunately, simply telling them what "can" happen to them doesn't seem to go very far. At least it's honest though. The other situation seems to be manufactured for a purpose that's not necessarily in a person's best interest.... I think it's counterproductive to make children feel as if they're "sinners" just because they're alive....as in bad for self esteem. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #42 October 20, 2005 It seems to me that it's no more pessimistic than telling people the truth about the dangers of sex. I agree that we need to educate teenagers. But unfortunately, simply telling them what "can" happen to them doesn't seem to go very far. At least it's honest though. The other situation seems to be manufactured for a purpose that's not necessarily in a person's best interest.... I think it's counterproductive to make children feel as if they're "sinners" just because they're alive....as in bad for self esteem.*** i certainly agree w/ your last statement there and that's not at all how we're raising our kids... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #43 October 20, 2005 QuoteI once saw a survey of several religions in the US to see how their spending patterns, family sizes, income levels, activities etc varied from religion to religion. All those parameters were remarkably consistent across religions, with the exception of sex - catholics had it a lot less. Was that just because they weren't counting oral sex? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #44 October 20, 2005 QuoteThe reality of the situation is that newborn babies haven't done anything bad that anyone could hold against them. Yet the church considers them to be sinners; remission and forgiveness can only come through baptism and (later) confession. That's how they manufacture sin, and provide a complementary service to remove that sin. Pretty good racket if you ask me. *** that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. actually, it smacks of a very real experience with the practice of real world Catholicism through its institutions and is a good analysis of its affects on the mental preconceptions it indoctrinates in otherwise ignorant (aka inexperienced) humans.... it is also DIRECTLY responsible for the rebellious archtype it creates aka the "Catholic School Girl"____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #45 October 20, 2005 QuoteQuote>that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... Hey, it wasn't my idea to saddle newborns with a load of sin. >and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. There are levels of understanding. ... including "wrong," "tainted," "skewed," "distored" and "Experienced" which outweighs your opinion of what Catholicism SHOULD be.... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #46 October 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote>that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... Hey, it wasn't my idea to saddle newborns with a load of sin. >and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. There are levels of understanding. ... including "wrong," "tainted," "skewed," "distored" and "Experienced" which outweighs your opinion of what Catholicism SHOULD be.... not SHOULD... IS... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #47 October 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhy the hell should you care if a christian kid in the south is taught about condoms at a young age, oh wait, you just made it a political issue and claim it's about fighting poverty. You paint with a broad brush and wonder why parents don't want you in their classrooms teaching their kids about sex I'll tell you why the hell I should care. I care because unwanted babies born to poor parents are statistically not good for society. I care because unwanted and unplanned children don't generally get a fair start. They are more likely to be poor, more likely to be abused, more likely to abuse drugs and more likely to become criminals. The point I was making is not exclusively to do with kids born to poor parents, as usual you're confusing two issues. Your concern isn't justification for forcing all parents to raise their kids to your social engineering plan and against their preferences, especially when you're utterly indiscriminate in the application of your methods. This is not about my christian ideal (your preconceptions about me just don't hold water on that score). Your anti-christian bigotry really stands out when you spout crap about others christian ideals. I'm explaining to closed minds why some parents resist certain policies, nothing else, something that's ludicrously been suggested is because christians fear sex. (That's the kind of brazenly bigoted and flawed claim seems to be fashionable in some circles.) They have an absolute RIGHT to raise THEIR kids to THEIR christian ideals without you sticking your big nose in their private family affairs. Yup SOME kids will have sex, that doesn't mean you have the right to jump in and interfere with every parent's right to raise their kids as they see fit and according to their beliefs. Deal with it. And don't go assuming things about my religious beliefs or how I would raise my kids because I disagree with fascist social engineering. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #48 October 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhy the hell should you care if a christian kid in the south is taught about condoms at a young age, oh wait, you just made it a political issue and claim it's about fighting poverty. You paint with a broad brush and wonder why parents don't want you in their classrooms teaching their kids about sex I'll tell you why the hell I should care. I care because unwanted babies born to poor parents are statistically not good for society. I care because unwanted and unplanned children don't generally get a fair start. They are more likely to be poor, more likely to be abused, more likely to abuse drugs and more likely to become criminals. The point I was making is not exclusively to do with kids born to poor parents, as usual you're confusing two issues. Your concern isn't justification for forcing all parents to raise their kids to your social engineering plan and against their preferences, especially when you're utterly indiscriminate in the application of your methods. This is not about my christian ideal (your preconceptions about me just don't hold water on that score). Your anti-christian bigotry really stands out when you spout crap about others christian ideals. I'm explaining to closed minds why some parents resist certain policies, nothing else, something that's ludicrously been suggested is because christians fear sex. (That's the kind of brazenly bigoted and flawed claim seems to be fashionable in some circles.) They have an absolute RIGHT to raise THEIR kids to THEIR christian ideals without you sticking your big nose in their private family affairs. Yup SOME kids will have sex, that doesn't mean you have the right to jump in and interfere with every parent's right to raise their kids as they see fit and according to their beliefs. Deal with it. And don't go assuming things about my religious beliefs or how I would raise my kids because I disagree with fascist social engineering. WOW! You go dorbie! -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #49 October 20, 2005 QuoteAhhh...I see...punish the unborn child by removing any ability for the mother to feed, clothe or shelter herself. How about she gets a fucking job like the rest of us. The goverment is responsible TO people not FOR people. The governments job is to make sure everyone has the option to work because jobs are available. It's up to the individual to be a slack ass or not be a slack ass. New word.. Slack Ass Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ReBirth 0 #50 October 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteAhhh...I see...punish the unborn child by removing any ability for the mother to feed, clothe or shelter herself. How about she gets a fucking job like the rest of us. The goverment is responsible TO people not FOR people. The governments job is to make sure everyone has the option to work because jobs are available. It's up to the individual to be a slack ass or not be a slack ass. New word.. Slack Ass Ok...so the baby should get a job? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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sinker 0 #28 October 19, 2005 QuoteThe real issue here is that these people are not given access to pregnancy prevention in the first place. Schools are prevented from teaching about birth control. States prohibit paying for birth control. Condom use is stigmatized. It's all a result of the christian fear of sex IMO. But that brings up a question. Why are christians so afraid of sex? It's been proven time and time again, sex ed and access to BC works to eliminate poverty. So many of the religious right are apparently uneasy with facts though... christians aren't afraid of sex... well some maybe, but I'm sure not... my wife isn't... none of my friends who are xian are... instead, there is a profound reverence for sex, for it's creative capabilities, for it's unitive powers... there is not this laissez-faire attitude about it "relax, it's just sex" that we see in permeated in our culture... it's a shame you equate that w/ fear. so let's talk about mandatory BC... and all the risks it subjects women to, esp. if you smoke, which many on welfare do, use drugs, which many on welfare do, drink alcohol, which many on welfare do, etc... let's look at the link b/t BC and breast cancer, stroke, heart attack, etc. Let's look at when BC fails... break-through ovuluations occur, condoms burst... do we then mandate abortion? And what about those risks? Perforated uterus, bleeding, possible sterility, post-abortion syndrome, etc. How about we work more on educating people on self-control, getting off welfare in the first place. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,534 #29 October 19, 2005 Maybe take the middle ground, and talk about the free and easy access to both BC and education. Not everyone is capable of self-control (how many of us are posting on dz.com from work?). I suppose we can punish them for that, or punish ourselves for that -- oh wait! we are! Make the best choice the easiest. But make the ones that benefit the largest number of people also easy. Make the choice that benefits the smallest number the hardest one whenever possible. If you can't do that, then make the others even easier, and demonstrate the benefit. But don't just ignore one whole section because it's not ideal. Life and people are not ideal. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #30 October 19, 2005 QuoteMaybe take the middle ground, and talk about the free and easy access to both BC and education. Not everyone is capable of self-control (how many of us are posting on dz.com from work?). I suppose we can punish them for that, or punish ourselves for that -- oh wait! we are! Make the best choice the easiest. But make the ones that benefit the largest number of people also easy. Make the choice that benefits the smallest number the hardest one whenever possible. If you can't do that, then make the others even easier, and demonstrate the benefit. But don't just ignore one whole section because it's not ideal. Life and people are not ideal. Wendy W. a very reasonable post... only prob is, where I live, bc AND education is readily available for those who want it... the prob is, it takes some motivation, some discipline... here, if they want it, they can have it. to me, welfare should have never become a long term program... short term only... get 'em off the roles man. educate, train, get 'em working. produce more than you consume. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #31 October 19, 2005 >Catholics who KNOW what the church teaches about sex aren't at all >afraid of sex. The only people who made it through my high school not scared to death of sex were the people who didn't listen to the Marianists who taught there. I recall Brother Karl on the subject: "Look, I could tell you lots about birth control and all. But they all fail. And there are diseases. The one way to not get into trouble you'll regret the rest of your life is DON'T DO IT." That point was hammered home repeatedly. Thus, kids from my high school approached sex the way most kids approach cocaine. >A manufactured need to repent? Puhleeze... Are people born with sin? (per the catholic church) How can sins can be forgiven? (again, per the catholic church.) What is an indulgence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #32 October 19, 2005 Are people born with sin? (per the catholic church) How can sins can be forgiven? (again, per the catholic church.) What is an indulgence? *** the answers to those questions lead you to call it "manufactured." That isn't the only way to look at this. It isn't the reality of the situation. as for kids having some fear of diseases, unwanted pregnancies, etc., you say that like it's a BAD thing! -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #33 October 19, 2005 Quoteas for kids having some fear of diseases, unwanted pregnancies, etc., you say that like it's a BAD thing! It is. When you use scare tactics to "train" someone, the first time they find out it's not as bad as you made it out to be, they think everything you said is a lie. It's the same thing with pot. People claim it's a gateway drug. And it is in a sense. Most people who do hard drugs, tried pot first (but not vice versa). But many times, they try pot, see that it's not as bad as it's made out to be, and then figure coke and lsd must not be as bad as they're portrayed either. When in reality, they're probably worse. Our nation lives in a culture of fear. It's sad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #34 October 19, 2005 >the answers to those questions lead you to call it "manufactured." > That isn't the only way to look at this. It isn't the reality of the > situation. The reality of the situation is that newborn babies haven't done anything bad that anyone could hold against them. Yet the church considers them to be sinners; remission and forgiveness can only come through baptism and (later) confession. That's how they manufacture sin, and provide a complementary service to remove that sin. Pretty good racket if you ask me. >as for kids having some fear of diseases, unwanted pregnancies, >etc., you say that like it's a BAD thing! Having fewer diseases and fewer unwanted pregnancies is a good thing. The approach that the Marianists took to the issue was to scare the crap out of the kids. That resulted in christians who are afraid of sex, as educated by a branch of catholicism dedicated to education. Hence, good catholics who are educated by catholics start out with a fear of sex, which is why so many catholics are afraid of sex. I agree that people smart enough to think on their own may well not pick up such a fear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #35 October 19, 2005 It is. When you use scare tactics to "train" someone, the first time they find out it's not as bad as you made it out to be, they think everything you said is a lie. *** I hardly would say that presenting kids w/ the truth can be called using scare tactics... kids SHOULD be told about unwanted pregnancies, what it's like, what STDs are like, that AIDS will KILL you, that herpes last a lifetime, syphylis will make you insane... that you could get PID and not ever be able to have kids... scare tactics? how about the truth... these are truths... kids are dying b/c people AREN'T properly educating kids and kids DON'T have a healthy respect and fear of the awesome power they have in their sexuality. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #36 October 19, 2005 The reality of the situation is that newborn babies haven't done anything bad that anyone could hold against them. Yet the church considers them to be sinners; remission and forgiveness can only come through baptism and (later) confession. That's how they manufacture sin, and provide a complementary service to remove that sin. Pretty good racket if you ask me. *** that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #37 October 19, 2005 Quotekids SHOULD be told about unwanted pregnancies, what it's like, what STDs are like, that AIDS will KILL you, that herpes last a lifetime, syphylis will make you insane... that you could get PID and not ever be able to have kids... all true...and they should. But you need to also include the information that it is possible to have sex safely with someone you love even if you haven't walked down an aisle and had it blessed by some guy in a dress yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #38 October 19, 2005 >that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... Hey, it wasn't my idea to saddle newborns with a load of sin. >and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. There are levels of understanding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #39 October 19, 2005 If things were up to me, welfare WOULD continue to exsist, however there would be more work force prep, education, finanical, and family training then currently is available. Time frames and a payment tier, more money at first, throughout work training and work force preperation payments and benefits would become less. The family on welfare would recieve information on BC and if it is something they want, be provided with BC. Families would have enough time to get on their feet, and learn how to remain on their feet so they wouldnt have to go back to welfare. I love my country for the certain freedoms I have, which include the freedoms to use BC or not. If I had wanted 16 kids , I like that in this country I could. Not everyone on welfare is on it because they want to live off the tax payers. People all fall on hard times, and some need welfare services, And it is a sad day when anyone looks at a pregnancy , planned or unplanned as a unhappy thing.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #40 October 19, 2005 Quote>that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... Hey, it wasn't my idea to saddle newborns with a load of sin. >and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. There are levels of understanding. ... including "wrong," "tainted," "skewed," "distored" -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #41 October 20, 2005 QuoteThe reality of the situation is that newborn babies haven't done anything bad that anyone could hold against them. Yet the church considers them to be sinners; remission and forgiveness can only come through baptism and (later) confession. That's how they manufacture sin, and provide a complementary service to remove that sin. Pretty good racket if you ask me. *** that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. It seems to me that it's no more pessimistic than telling people the truth about the dangers of sex. I agree that we need to educate teenagers. But unfortunately, simply telling them what "can" happen to them doesn't seem to go very far. At least it's honest though. The other situation seems to be manufactured for a purpose that's not necessarily in a person's best interest.... I think it's counterproductive to make children feel as if they're "sinners" just because they're alive....as in bad for self esteem. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #42 October 20, 2005 It seems to me that it's no more pessimistic than telling people the truth about the dangers of sex. I agree that we need to educate teenagers. But unfortunately, simply telling them what "can" happen to them doesn't seem to go very far. At least it's honest though. The other situation seems to be manufactured for a purpose that's not necessarily in a person's best interest.... I think it's counterproductive to make children feel as if they're "sinners" just because they're alive....as in bad for self esteem.*** i certainly agree w/ your last statement there and that's not at all how we're raising our kids... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #43 October 20, 2005 QuoteI once saw a survey of several religions in the US to see how their spending patterns, family sizes, income levels, activities etc varied from religion to religion. All those parameters were remarkably consistent across religions, with the exception of sex - catholics had it a lot less. Was that just because they weren't counting oral sex? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #44 October 20, 2005 QuoteThe reality of the situation is that newborn babies haven't done anything bad that anyone could hold against them. Yet the church considers them to be sinners; remission and forgiveness can only come through baptism and (later) confession. That's how they manufacture sin, and provide a complementary service to remove that sin. Pretty good racket if you ask me. *** that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. actually, it smacks of a very real experience with the practice of real world Catholicism through its institutions and is a good analysis of its affects on the mental preconceptions it indoctrinates in otherwise ignorant (aka inexperienced) humans.... it is also DIRECTLY responsible for the rebellious archtype it creates aka the "Catholic School Girl"____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #45 October 20, 2005 QuoteQuote>that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... Hey, it wasn't my idea to saddle newborns with a load of sin. >and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. There are levels of understanding. ... including "wrong," "tainted," "skewed," "distored" and "Experienced" which outweighs your opinion of what Catholicism SHOULD be.... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #46 October 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote>that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else... Hey, it wasn't my idea to saddle newborns with a load of sin. >and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology. There are levels of understanding. ... including "wrong," "tainted," "skewed," "distored" and "Experienced" which outweighs your opinion of what Catholicism SHOULD be.... not SHOULD... IS... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #47 October 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhy the hell should you care if a christian kid in the south is taught about condoms at a young age, oh wait, you just made it a political issue and claim it's about fighting poverty. You paint with a broad brush and wonder why parents don't want you in their classrooms teaching their kids about sex I'll tell you why the hell I should care. I care because unwanted babies born to poor parents are statistically not good for society. I care because unwanted and unplanned children don't generally get a fair start. They are more likely to be poor, more likely to be abused, more likely to abuse drugs and more likely to become criminals. The point I was making is not exclusively to do with kids born to poor parents, as usual you're confusing two issues. Your concern isn't justification for forcing all parents to raise their kids to your social engineering plan and against their preferences, especially when you're utterly indiscriminate in the application of your methods. This is not about my christian ideal (your preconceptions about me just don't hold water on that score). Your anti-christian bigotry really stands out when you spout crap about others christian ideals. I'm explaining to closed minds why some parents resist certain policies, nothing else, something that's ludicrously been suggested is because christians fear sex. (That's the kind of brazenly bigoted and flawed claim seems to be fashionable in some circles.) They have an absolute RIGHT to raise THEIR kids to THEIR christian ideals without you sticking your big nose in their private family affairs. Yup SOME kids will have sex, that doesn't mean you have the right to jump in and interfere with every parent's right to raise their kids as they see fit and according to their beliefs. Deal with it. And don't go assuming things about my religious beliefs or how I would raise my kids because I disagree with fascist social engineering. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #48 October 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhy the hell should you care if a christian kid in the south is taught about condoms at a young age, oh wait, you just made it a political issue and claim it's about fighting poverty. You paint with a broad brush and wonder why parents don't want you in their classrooms teaching their kids about sex I'll tell you why the hell I should care. I care because unwanted babies born to poor parents are statistically not good for society. I care because unwanted and unplanned children don't generally get a fair start. They are more likely to be poor, more likely to be abused, more likely to abuse drugs and more likely to become criminals. The point I was making is not exclusively to do with kids born to poor parents, as usual you're confusing two issues. Your concern isn't justification for forcing all parents to raise their kids to your social engineering plan and against their preferences, especially when you're utterly indiscriminate in the application of your methods. This is not about my christian ideal (your preconceptions about me just don't hold water on that score). Your anti-christian bigotry really stands out when you spout crap about others christian ideals. I'm explaining to closed minds why some parents resist certain policies, nothing else, something that's ludicrously been suggested is because christians fear sex. (That's the kind of brazenly bigoted and flawed claim seems to be fashionable in some circles.) They have an absolute RIGHT to raise THEIR kids to THEIR christian ideals without you sticking your big nose in their private family affairs. Yup SOME kids will have sex, that doesn't mean you have the right to jump in and interfere with every parent's right to raise their kids as they see fit and according to their beliefs. Deal with it. And don't go assuming things about my religious beliefs or how I would raise my kids because I disagree with fascist social engineering. WOW! You go dorbie! -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #49 October 20, 2005 QuoteAhhh...I see...punish the unborn child by removing any ability for the mother to feed, clothe or shelter herself. How about she gets a fucking job like the rest of us. The goverment is responsible TO people not FOR people. The governments job is to make sure everyone has the option to work because jobs are available. It's up to the individual to be a slack ass or not be a slack ass. New word.. Slack Ass Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #50 October 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteAhhh...I see...punish the unborn child by removing any ability for the mother to feed, clothe or shelter herself. How about she gets a fucking job like the rest of us. The goverment is responsible TO people not FOR people. The governments job is to make sure everyone has the option to work because jobs are available. It's up to the individual to be a slack ass or not be a slack ass. New word.. Slack Ass Ok...so the baby should get a job? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
