pajarito 0 #576 July 10, 2006 Quote>No. It is important that we find out what it means for "all of us." We shall continue to disagree, then. I think that the important part is that it means something for _you_. I guess I agree to disagree then. I just think there is a much bigger picture to all of this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaiziel 0 #577 July 10, 2006 Quote Premeditated, unjustified, intentional killing without cause. But if god tells you to do it, that offers all the justification and cause you need. "Thou shall not kill*" * - Unless I tell you to.---------------------------------------- 6.8% - Almost there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #578 July 10, 2006 QuoteBut you just defined murder as premeditated. She didn't know she was going to do it. No. "I" didn't define anything. I stated what translates into English from the original Hebrew. QuotePremeditated, unjustified, intentional killing without cause. However, when we sin (whatever it is), we do it "with knowledge" (conscience) that it is wrong. I don't buy for a minute that the woman in your scenario suddenly forgot that murder was wrong before she did it. Sure, she may have been enraged, but she still knew it was wrong. You have to take responsibility for your actions. Like I said, God knows your heart. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #579 July 10, 2006 QuoteBut if god tells you to do it, that offers all the justification and cause you need. "Thou shall not kill*" * - Unless I tell you to. I have no idea what you're talking about and how it pertains to a serious conversation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,490 #580 July 10, 2006 QuoteWe're not bound by it anymore. The Bible makes that clear. It's still part of history. We just have to understand the differences in Old Testament law (e.g. civil, ceremonial, moral). Even if we are not bound by it it was obviously still behaviour that was condoned by God. Therefore what was acceptable then must still be acceptable now if there is no moral relativism. So if you stone an adulteress to death then God won't hold it against you.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #581 July 10, 2006 having just reread matthew, mark, luke, and john in their entirety, to preclude 'your taking it out of context' claims; this verse from luke 19:27 throws out any and all claims that the 'christian' god and mythical saviour loves the world. it reads: but those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither, and slay them before me. THIS IS ONE OF THE 'SCRIPTURES' THAT IS THE FOUNDATION OF ALL THE BLOODSHED COMMITED IN SPREADING THE 'WORD OF GOD'. st augustine's, "kill them all let god sort them out". the inquisition, the witch burning's, the genocide committed against the indigenous people on every continent, including the future holocaust in the name of a one world religion. deny it all you want, it is the truth of the big 3, Judaism, christianity, and islam. eastern religions have their dark history, also. www.truthbeknown.comwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #582 July 11, 2006 QuoteHowever, when we sin (whatever it is), we do it "with knowledge" (conscience) that it is wrong. I don't buy for a minute that the woman in your scenario suddenly forgot that murder was wrong before she did it. Sure, she may have been enraged, but she still knew it was wrong. You have to take responsibility for your actions. Like I said, God knows your heart. I'm not so sure that when we do something that is wrong, we know it. For example, I hit my husband one time. He said something stupid, I reacted by hitting him. We are talking less than a second reaction time, not enough of a moment to process anything mentally, just a total knee jerk reaction. At the second I hit him, there was absolutely no cognizance that it was wrong, I just lashed out the only way I knew how. Immediately afterwards, I was horrified and apologizing though. I still feel awful for it.... he forgave me, but I'll probably never forgive myself for that one. So based on your definition of sinning, did hitting my husband fall into that category or not? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #583 July 11, 2006 Quotehaving just reread matthew, mark, luke, and john in their entirety, to preclude 'your taking it out of context' claims; this verse from luke 19:27 throws out any and all claims that the 'christian' god and mythical saviour loves the world. it reads: but those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither, and slay them before me.First off, are you some kind of speed reader? Secondly, why should anyone , especially Christians, take you seriously, when you have pulled one verse out of a whole story and use it to make your point. I could do this with any book, any time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #584 July 11, 2006 >Secondly, why should anyone , especially Christians, take you >seriously, when you have pulled one verse out of a whole story and use >it to make your point. While I agree, that very tactic is quite popular with Christians specifically. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #585 July 11, 2006 Why use "the original Greek" did Jessu(if he existed) speak Greek, I dont think so. Even if he did exist, the Nt (in Greek) is a translation written at the very least ,several decase after the words were spoken. I dont see any reason to treat such a text seriously. Why not just say the whole bible is hyperbole?Once you say some of it is not literal then the whole house of cards starts tumbling down. In the case of Jesus saying hate your family i think he was making the points that many cults make. That is everything is subsevient to the cult. The bible is clear; if there is conflict of belief vs family you do not carry on loving your family you kill them. What a great text. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #586 July 11, 2006 Quotehaving just reread matthew, mark, luke, and john in their entirety, to preclude 'your taking it out of context' claims; this verse from luke 19:27 throws out any and all claims that the 'christian' god and mythical saviour loves the world. it reads: but those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither, and slay them before me. THIS IS ONE OF THE 'SCRIPTURES' THAT IS THE FOUNDATION OF ALL THE BLOODSHED COMMITED IN SPREADING THE 'WORD OF GOD'.Quote That's a great illustration of why one should not simply pluck a sentence from anything you read and use it to suite your own purposes. The verse you quoted comes from The Parable of the Ten Minas. It's a short story with a moral lesson. - It explains that God's kingdom will not appear immediately - It predicts that the Lord's reign will be rejected by many - It describes the role of a disciple between the Lord's departure and his return - It describes the reckoning that awaits all Christians - It describes the punishment awaiting those who do not submit to the King. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #587 July 11, 2006 Quote>Secondly, why should anyone , especially Christians, take you >seriously, when you have pulled one verse out of a whole story and use >it to make your point. While I agree, that very tactic is quite popular with Christians specifically. Don't generalize Bill. The bad apples don't represent the whole tree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #588 July 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteHowever, when we sin (whatever it is), we do it "with knowledge" (conscience) that it is wrong. I don't buy for a minute that the woman in your scenario suddenly forgot that murder was wrong before she did it. Sure, she may have been enraged, but she still knew it was wrong. You have to take responsibility for your actions. Like I said, God knows your heart. I'm not so sure that when we do something that is wrong, we know it. For example, I hit my husband one time. He said something stupid, I reacted by hitting him. We are talking less than a second reaction time, not enough of a moment to process anything mentally, just a total knee jerk reaction. At the second I hit him, there was absolutely no cognizance that it was wrong, I just lashed out the only way I knew how. Immediately afterwards, I was horrified and apologizing though. I still feel awful for it.... he forgave me, but I'll probably never forgive myself for that one. So based on your definition of sinning, did hitting my husband fall into that category or not? Were you "angry without cause" before you did it? Jesus said that if you just call your brother a fool, you are in danger of judgment, and the Bible says that if you've ever hated anyone (doesn't matter if it was just in the heat of the moment; God sees your heart), you are a murderer in God's eyes. Your hitting him was just an extension of that. Doesn't make you less guilty. Sounds like you did the right thing, though. I've been there. Most times, both parties are at fault, although I rarely ever admit that. Added: QuoteHave mercy on me, O God, because of your loyal love! Because of your great compassion, wipe away my rebellious acts! Scrub away my wrongdoing! Cleanse me of my sin! For I am aware of my rebellious acts; I am forever conscious of my sin. Against you, especially you, I have sinned; I have done what is sinful in your sight. So you are just when you confront me; you are right when you condemn me. Psalm 51:1-4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #589 July 11, 2006 QuoteEven if we are not bound by it it was obviously still behaviour that was condoned by God. Therefore what was acceptable then must still be acceptable now if there is no moral relativism. Many practices in the Old Testament were tolerated by God, for his purposes, but not necessarily condoned. These were primitive peoples. QuoteSo if you stone an adulteress to death then God won't hold it against you. You’d be guilty of breaking the 6th Commandment and God will hold it against you. “Stoning for adultery was the civil law of the Nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and was not the civil law of any other nation.” It was not the law of God. “Interestingly, stoning for adultery was not acceptable under Roman law at that time and Jesus would have actually violated the civil law if he agreed to it.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #590 July 11, 2006 QuoteWhy use "the original Greek" did Jessu(if he existed) speak Greek, I dont think so. Even if he did exist, the Nt (in Greek) is a translation written at the very least ,several decase after the words were spoken. I dont see any reason to treat such a text seriously. Why not just say the whole bible is hyperbole?Once you say some of it is not literal then the whole house of cards starts tumbling down. In the case of Jesus saying hate your family i think he was making the points that many cults make. That is everything is subsevient to the cult. The bible is clear; if there is conflict of belief vs family you do not carry on loving your family you kill them. What a great text. Is there a serious question in any of this or is it just one big rant? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,490 #591 July 11, 2006 Quote“Stoning for adultery was the civil law of the Nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and was not the civil law of any other nation.” But it was implicitly condoned by God then, and (apparently) is not now. Moral relativism.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #592 July 11, 2006 Quote...the Bible says that if you've ever hated anyone (doesn't matter if it was just in the heat of the moment; God sees your heart), you are a murderer in God's eyes. If you believe what the bible says it true, the bar has been set impossibly high by that loving god of yours. So high that none of his beloved creations can ever pass. The only way out is to accept the whole sin guilt trip and sell your soul to jesus. But then you run the risk of not understanding your instructions properly, or picking the wrong religious sect or any of the other millions of pitfalls god has set up to catch you out so he can throw you into eternal hell fire. Luckily, the whole problem vanishes instantly when you realise that god is fictional. Occam's Razor strikes again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #593 July 11, 2006 QuoteQuote“Stoning for adultery was the civil law of the Nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and was not the civil law of any other nation.” But it was implicitly condoned by God then, and (apparently) is not now. Moral relativism. God is not subject to us or our rules. We are subject to his. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #594 July 11, 2006 QuoteIf you believe what the bible says it true, the bar has been set impossibly high by that loving god of yours. So high that none of his beloved creations can ever pass. The only way out is to accept the whole sin guilt trip and sell your soul to jesus. But then you run the risk of not understanding your instructions properly, or picking the wrong religious sect or any of the other millions of pitfalls god has set up to catch you out so he can throw you into eternal hell fire. Are you asking me or telling me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #595 July 11, 2006 QuoteQuote“Stoning for adultery was the civil law of the Nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and was not the civil law of any other nation.” But it was implicitly condoned by God then, and (apparently) is not now. Moral relativism. Moral Relativism - Moral or ethical propositions do not reflect absolute and universal moral truths but instead exist relative to social, cultural, historical or personal references, and that no single standard exists by which to assess an ethical proposition's truth. As stated before, stoning for adultery was the civil law of the Nation of Israel and not “God's law.” God’s law is absolute and universal. It is the same now as it was then. It’s not “relative” to anything. It is in fact above everything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hairyjuan 0 #596 July 11, 2006 once again and again and again, every time some one insists that the the 'bible is true(in spite of all the existing proof since the lie was started), they become proof that RELIGION IS MIND CONTROL! to believe that some "god" is going to come down out of the sky and carry his "believers" off, is the essence of absurdity. I am who I am HIGHLY recomme3nds that you go to:www.tbknews.blogspot.com, scroll down to 'praise the lord and pass the ammo', to get a solid grip on luke 19:27's impact on christianity. the video game is sponsored by tim la haye and the author of 'the purpose driven life'we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #597 July 11, 2006 QuoteAre you asking me or telling me? Why? is it not true? I once asked you if there was any evidence, even in principle, that could make you change your mind about the truth of the bible. You could answer that question for me if you want to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #598 July 11, 2006 Quoteonce again and again and again, every time some one insists that the the 'bible is true(in spite of all the existing proof since the lie was started), they become proof that RELIGION IS MIND CONTROL! to believe that some "god" is going to come down out of the sky and carry his "believers" off, is the essence of absurdity. Quote"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness . . . For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent . . . But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence." 1 Corinthians 1:18,19,27-29 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #599 July 11, 2006 QuoteI once asked you if there was any evidence, even in principle, that could make you change your mind about the truth of the bible. You could answer that question for me if you want to. My belief is secure. It is based not only on faith but personal experience. You have no evidence that could shake it. So, the answer to your question is no. QuoteA young boy was told by his parents not to touch the stove because it was hot. The young boy didn't know if he really believed that or not so he touched the stove anyway. Startled and burned, he jumped back and found a new respect for what his parents told him. His belief was now not only based on faith but experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #600 July 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteI once asked you if there was any evidence, even in principle, that could make you change your mind about the truth of the bible. You could answer that question for me if you want to. My belief is secure. It is based not only on faith but personal experience. You have no evidence that could shake it. So, the answer to your question is no. Wow. No evidence at all, not even in principle. I wish I could think of a nicer way of saying it but it would be a waste of time for anyone to try to tell you anything then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 Next Page 24 of 37 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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pajarito 0 #587 July 11, 2006 Quote>Secondly, why should anyone , especially Christians, take you >seriously, when you have pulled one verse out of a whole story and use >it to make your point. While I agree, that very tactic is quite popular with Christians specifically. Don't generalize Bill. The bad apples don't represent the whole tree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #588 July 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteHowever, when we sin (whatever it is), we do it "with knowledge" (conscience) that it is wrong. I don't buy for a minute that the woman in your scenario suddenly forgot that murder was wrong before she did it. Sure, she may have been enraged, but she still knew it was wrong. You have to take responsibility for your actions. Like I said, God knows your heart. I'm not so sure that when we do something that is wrong, we know it. For example, I hit my husband one time. He said something stupid, I reacted by hitting him. We are talking less than a second reaction time, not enough of a moment to process anything mentally, just a total knee jerk reaction. At the second I hit him, there was absolutely no cognizance that it was wrong, I just lashed out the only way I knew how. Immediately afterwards, I was horrified and apologizing though. I still feel awful for it.... he forgave me, but I'll probably never forgive myself for that one. So based on your definition of sinning, did hitting my husband fall into that category or not? Were you "angry without cause" before you did it? Jesus said that if you just call your brother a fool, you are in danger of judgment, and the Bible says that if you've ever hated anyone (doesn't matter if it was just in the heat of the moment; God sees your heart), you are a murderer in God's eyes. Your hitting him was just an extension of that. Doesn't make you less guilty. Sounds like you did the right thing, though. I've been there. Most times, both parties are at fault, although I rarely ever admit that. Added: QuoteHave mercy on me, O God, because of your loyal love! Because of your great compassion, wipe away my rebellious acts! Scrub away my wrongdoing! Cleanse me of my sin! For I am aware of my rebellious acts; I am forever conscious of my sin. Against you, especially you, I have sinned; I have done what is sinful in your sight. So you are just when you confront me; you are right when you condemn me. Psalm 51:1-4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #589 July 11, 2006 QuoteEven if we are not bound by it it was obviously still behaviour that was condoned by God. Therefore what was acceptable then must still be acceptable now if there is no moral relativism. Many practices in the Old Testament were tolerated by God, for his purposes, but not necessarily condoned. These were primitive peoples. QuoteSo if you stone an adulteress to death then God won't hold it against you. You’d be guilty of breaking the 6th Commandment and God will hold it against you. “Stoning for adultery was the civil law of the Nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and was not the civil law of any other nation.” It was not the law of God. “Interestingly, stoning for adultery was not acceptable under Roman law at that time and Jesus would have actually violated the civil law if he agreed to it.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #590 July 11, 2006 QuoteWhy use "the original Greek" did Jessu(if he existed) speak Greek, I dont think so. Even if he did exist, the Nt (in Greek) is a translation written at the very least ,several decase after the words were spoken. I dont see any reason to treat such a text seriously. Why not just say the whole bible is hyperbole?Once you say some of it is not literal then the whole house of cards starts tumbling down. In the case of Jesus saying hate your family i think he was making the points that many cults make. That is everything is subsevient to the cult. The bible is clear; if there is conflict of belief vs family you do not carry on loving your family you kill them. What a great text. Is there a serious question in any of this or is it just one big rant? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,490 #591 July 11, 2006 Quote“Stoning for adultery was the civil law of the Nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and was not the civil law of any other nation.” But it was implicitly condoned by God then, and (apparently) is not now. Moral relativism.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #592 July 11, 2006 Quote...the Bible says that if you've ever hated anyone (doesn't matter if it was just in the heat of the moment; God sees your heart), you are a murderer in God's eyes. If you believe what the bible says it true, the bar has been set impossibly high by that loving god of yours. So high that none of his beloved creations can ever pass. The only way out is to accept the whole sin guilt trip and sell your soul to jesus. But then you run the risk of not understanding your instructions properly, or picking the wrong religious sect or any of the other millions of pitfalls god has set up to catch you out so he can throw you into eternal hell fire. Luckily, the whole problem vanishes instantly when you realise that god is fictional. Occam's Razor strikes again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #593 July 11, 2006 QuoteQuote“Stoning for adultery was the civil law of the Nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and was not the civil law of any other nation.” But it was implicitly condoned by God then, and (apparently) is not now. Moral relativism. God is not subject to us or our rules. We are subject to his. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #594 July 11, 2006 QuoteIf you believe what the bible says it true, the bar has been set impossibly high by that loving god of yours. So high that none of his beloved creations can ever pass. The only way out is to accept the whole sin guilt trip and sell your soul to jesus. But then you run the risk of not understanding your instructions properly, or picking the wrong religious sect or any of the other millions of pitfalls god has set up to catch you out so he can throw you into eternal hell fire. Are you asking me or telling me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #595 July 11, 2006 QuoteQuote“Stoning for adultery was the civil law of the Nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and was not the civil law of any other nation.” But it was implicitly condoned by God then, and (apparently) is not now. Moral relativism. Moral Relativism - Moral or ethical propositions do not reflect absolute and universal moral truths but instead exist relative to social, cultural, historical or personal references, and that no single standard exists by which to assess an ethical proposition's truth. As stated before, stoning for adultery was the civil law of the Nation of Israel and not “God's law.” God’s law is absolute and universal. It is the same now as it was then. It’s not “relative” to anything. It is in fact above everything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #596 July 11, 2006 once again and again and again, every time some one insists that the the 'bible is true(in spite of all the existing proof since the lie was started), they become proof that RELIGION IS MIND CONTROL! to believe that some "god" is going to come down out of the sky and carry his "believers" off, is the essence of absurdity. I am who I am HIGHLY recomme3nds that you go to:www.tbknews.blogspot.com, scroll down to 'praise the lord and pass the ammo', to get a solid grip on luke 19:27's impact on christianity. the video game is sponsored by tim la haye and the author of 'the purpose driven life'we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #597 July 11, 2006 QuoteAre you asking me or telling me? Why? is it not true? I once asked you if there was any evidence, even in principle, that could make you change your mind about the truth of the bible. You could answer that question for me if you want to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #598 July 11, 2006 Quoteonce again and again and again, every time some one insists that the the 'bible is true(in spite of all the existing proof since the lie was started), they become proof that RELIGION IS MIND CONTROL! to believe that some "god" is going to come down out of the sky and carry his "believers" off, is the essence of absurdity. Quote"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness . . . For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent . . . But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence." 1 Corinthians 1:18,19,27-29 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #599 July 11, 2006 QuoteI once asked you if there was any evidence, even in principle, that could make you change your mind about the truth of the bible. You could answer that question for me if you want to. My belief is secure. It is based not only on faith but personal experience. You have no evidence that could shake it. So, the answer to your question is no. QuoteA young boy was told by his parents not to touch the stove because it was hot. The young boy didn't know if he really believed that or not so he touched the stove anyway. Startled and burned, he jumped back and found a new respect for what his parents told him. His belief was now not only based on faith but experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #600 July 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteI once asked you if there was any evidence, even in principle, that could make you change your mind about the truth of the bible. You could answer that question for me if you want to. My belief is secure. It is based not only on faith but personal experience. You have no evidence that could shake it. So, the answer to your question is no. Wow. No evidence at all, not even in principle. I wish I could think of a nicer way of saying it but it would be a waste of time for anyone to try to tell you anything then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
