pajarito 0 #601 July 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI once asked you if there was any evidence, even in principle, that could make you change your mind about the truth of the bible. You could answer that question for me if you want to. My belief is secure. It is based not only on faith but personal experience. You have no evidence that could shake it. So, the answer to your question is no. Wow. No evidence at all, not even in principle. I wish I could think of a nicer way of saying it but it would be a waste of time for anyone to try to tell you anything then. My wife tells me that... Sometimes... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #602 July 11, 2006 ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha- if that isn't TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT, NOBODY KNOWS WHAT IS. more proof of your ignorance about the origin of all religion, and that religion(or the fear it is based on) CONTROLS YOU! Infinite love is the only TRUTH, everything else is illusionwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #603 July 11, 2006 Quoteha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha- if that isn't TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT, NOBODY KNOWS WHAT IS. more proof of your ignorance about the origin of all religion, and that religion(or the fear it is based on) CONTROLS YOU!Quote How is it taken out of context? Explain please. QuoteInfinite love is the only TRUTH, everything else is illusion Excellent Hairyjuan!!! I agree (NEVER thought I'd get the chance to say that). QuoteDear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. 1 John 4:7-12 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hairyjuan 0 #604 July 11, 2006 infinite love exclude the mind control tool, the bible. why do you keep quoting out of context, the same thing you chide me for, exodus 20 i am a jeolous god. that excludes love totally. or luke 19:27 bring all unbelievers before me and slay them. INFINITE LOVE, MY ASS www.truthbeknown.comwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #605 July 11, 2006 Quoteinfinite love exclude the mind control tool, the bible. why do you keep quoting out of context, the same thing you chide me for, exodus 20 i am a jeolous god. that excludes love totally. or luke 19:27 bring all unbelievers before me and slay them. INFINITE LOVE, MY ASS Commandment #2 QuoteYou shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or one the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:4-6 In this verse, the word jealous is not used in the sense that God is envious of something that someone else has. There is nothing that God “needs” or “has to have.” He is complete. We are not here because he needs us. We are here only as an expression of his glory. In the context of Exodus, God is speaking of people making and bowing down to idols instead of giving him the worship that he deserves. He isn’t jealous of what someone else has. He is jealous of what already belongs to him. There is a big difference. QuoteThe Parable of the Ten Minas While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.' "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.' "He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. "The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.' " 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.' "The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.' "His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.' "Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.' "His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?' "Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.' " 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!' "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." Luke 19:11-27 - It explains that God's kingdom will not appear immediately - It predicts that the Lord's reign will be rejected by many - It describes the role of a disciple between the Lord's departure and his return - It describes the reckoning that awaits all Christians - It describes the punishment awaiting those who do not submit to the King. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hairyjuan 0 #606 July 11, 2006 over and over and over and over, you prove that religion is mind control! the bible is not a historical record. in any way ,shape, or form. again, you take it out of context. provide me with exigent records from other writers of the time, excluding pliny, suetonius, josephus, because they are PROVEN FORGERIES. there are none! no reasonably intelligent person would accept the statement that the bible proves itself! in exodus it says i am a jealous god.. jealousy is the root of fear. STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT was stated at the very beginning of this thread, religion is the cause of division, still the truth.we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #607 July 12, 2006 Its a serious question. Is your resposnse a lazy way to doddge it? "You’d be guilty of breaking the 6th Commandment and God will hold it against you. " This is a laughable comment quite frankly. There are countless commands by god to kill in the bible. So are you saying that everyone who follows gods commands are also breaking gods laws? I have already shown you the passage in the bible that tells us the punishment for blasphamey is death. Its not the only death penalty in the bible, Im sure you know that. God commanded the death penalty for adultery: Leviticus 20:10-12 10And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Those that claim some of the vile laws in the OT only apply to OT Isreal should tell us why the 10 commandments should be treated differently, after all they were given to OT Isreal as well. Lets not forget what jesus said: Mathew 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. He had the chance to say unambigously -I have come to tear the old laws up, that they dont apply that one shouldnt execute blasphemeres, gays, adulterers and sabbath breakers- but he didnt. So he is at worst a tryant and at best contradictory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #608 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteWow. No evidence at all, not even in principle. I wish I could think of a nicer way of saying it but it would be a waste of time for anyone to try to tell you anything then. My wife tells me that... Sometimes... Well at least you have a sense of humour about it. But seriously, even if I could provide proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that god was fictional, you'd still beleive the superstitions of a bunch of bronze age nomads over your own eyes? Surely you can't be serious? Can people really have their minds so completely welded shut by that book of yours? I can't even imagine why anyone would want to do that. Why would you do that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #609 July 12, 2006 Not trying to speak for Pajarito, but here's my perception: It's not someone or something else that he's believing. This is belief from within himself, confirmed by the teachings of others who believed the same way. There seems to be a cart vs. horse disagreement here. Faith and love and God are the horse, the bible and moral law and all the other "how we should do things", is the cart. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #610 July 12, 2006 QuoteThis is a laughable comment quite frankly. There are countless commands by god to kill in the bible. So are you saying that everyone who follows gods commands are also breaking gods laws? I have already shown you the passage in the bible that tells us the punishment for blasphamey is death. Its not the only death penalty in the bible, Im sure you know that. Just some background: The Hebrew word used in 6th Commandment is ratsach which translates “intentional killing without cause” (e.g. murder). Hebrew law recognized accidental killing as not punishable. In these instances, the Hebrew word nakah is used. For God (or anyone else) to be guilty of murder, the killing would have to be unjustified or without cause. This is never the case with God or for anyone he commanded to kill. God is always completely holy and just. When God ordered Joshua, for example, to kill the people of Canaan, Joshua was completely justified in his actions. The Canaanites had forsaken God and were performing acts such as burning their children as sacrifices to pagan gods. They were considered wicked by God and the order was given. The Canaanites were not innocent and deserved God’s righteous judgment. The penalty for your sin today has not changed since then. God is merely withholding judgment and giving you the time to repent and trust in him. QuoteGod commanded the death penalty for adultery: Leviticus 20:10-12 10And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. This is righteous judgment. The ultimate penalty is the same now as it was then. Anyone with sin on their record when called to accountability on the Day of Judgment will be put to death. Righteous judgment was immediately delivered in those days for sins against God. It has been withheld now due to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. In those days, people could only be justified before God through their faith. It had to be great faith measured by God himself. QuoteThose that claim some of the vile laws in the OT only apply to OT Isreal should tell us why the 10 commandments should be treated differently, after all they were given to OT Isreal as well. Because they are different. Quote The commands of the Old Testament are divided generally into moral law, ceremonial law and civil law. The moral law (i.e. the 10 commandments) remain in effect and few people would question that. The ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not binding anymore. The civil law (stoning for adultery, etc.) was the law of the nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and is not the civil law of any other nation. QuoteLets not forget what jesus said: Mathew 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Exactly! And that is precisely why you, as an unbeliever, are still under the weight of the law and will be held accountable to it on the Day of Judgment. It is why it is still as valid today as it was when it was given. He wasn’t speaking of the laws of a particular nation or those which applied to a particular ceremony of a people. He was talking about God’s laws (e.g. His laws). The fulfillment of the law is through him and only him. You can’t say that you’ve kept the 10 Commandments or that it is even possible for you to do so. He is the atoning sacrifice for your having broken the law, being under penalty of death, and unable to pay your own fine. QuoteHe had the chance to say unambigously -I have come to tear the old laws up, that they dont apply that one shouldnt execute blasphemeres, gays, adulterers and sabbath breakers- but he didnt. The punishment for the transgression of the law that you mentioned has not changed. It is death. As you stated above, however, Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it. There is a New Covenant with God through his atoning sacrifice. Judgment has been withheld but not forever. You will have to answer for every thought and deed done during your lifetime. QuoteSo he is at worst a tryant and at best contradictory. You just broke Commandment # 3. Quote "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain." Exodus 20:7 Quote But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. Romans 2:5 Where will you be going when you die? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #611 July 12, 2006 QuoteBut seriously, even if I could provide proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that god was fictional, you'd still beleive the superstitions of a bunch of bronze age nomads over your own eyes? If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass-a-hoppin (maybe it will evolve some eventually). Whatcha got? Even some of our most brilliant scientists can't discount the possibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hairyjuan 0 #612 July 12, 2006 more proof that the bible is a fraud! The stories in exodus are totally false If the events were real, the locusts, the deaths of the first-born, the rivers turning to blood, etc., Egyptian historians would have recorded them also. The now translated hieroglyphics make no mention of the catastrophies mentioned in exodus, nor do they refer to any Hebrew slaves. Once again, everyone who claims the bible is true, prove by that statement, that RELIGION IS MIND CONTROL.we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #613 July 12, 2006 Quotemore proof that the bible is a fraud! The stories in exodus are totally false If the events were real, the locusts, the deaths of the first-born, the rivers turning to blood, etc., Egyptian historians would have recorded them also. The now translated hieroglyphics make no mention of the catastrophies mentioned in exodus, nor do they refer to any Hebrew slaves. Once again, everyone who claims the bible is true, prove by that statement, that RELIGION IS MIND CONTROL. Interesting article concerning this topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #614 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteBut seriously, even if I could provide proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that god was fictional, you'd still beleive the superstitions of a bunch of bronze age nomads over your own eyes? If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass-a-hoppin (maybe it will evolve some eventually). Whatcha got? Even some of our most brilliant scientists can't discount the possibility. I have no idea what that lot means but I suggest you read up on what a scientific theory actually is and why scientists provide caveats even to the best of them. Regarding evolution, there is a wealth of evidence to suggest that evolution and natural selection is the way life has developed on this earth. You can watch evolution at work in the lab. As a scientific theory, natural selection is the absolute best theory we have. You can read about it in The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins, here's the complete book so you don't even have to buy it. Could the theory be wrong? Of course it could but even if it is, it still does amazingly well at explaining the diversity of life on this planet. But apparently this mountain of evidence is not good enough for you. Instead you are choose to believe a copy of a translation of a 2000 year old chinese whisper that might have been told about a bloke who might have existed and might have been the son of god if god even exists (for which there is no evidence at all). But none of that is my point. My point is that even if I could prove that god is fictional so that no sane, rational, logical thinking person could ever doubt me, you'd still cling on to your godidit beliefs. That just seems so mind bogglingly off the scale nutty that I just can't beleive anyone could actually feel that way. Yet apparently you do and I have absolutely no idea why you would want to do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #615 July 12, 2006 QuoteMy point is that even if I could prove that god is fictional so that no sane, rational, logical thinking person could ever doubt me, You can't. Added: Have you taken the test below? How'd you do? Where will you be going when you die? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #616 July 12, 2006 QuoteThis is belief from within himself, confirmed by the teachings of others who believed the same way. What justification does he have for believing that he has not been decieving himself of that he has not attributed the wrong cause to whatever feeling caused him to think this way? To not even be open to the possibility of being incorrect is a dangerous place to be in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #617 July 12, 2006 QuoteWhat justification does he have for believing that he has not been decieving himself of that he has not attributed the wrong cause to whatever feeling caused him to think this way? To not even be open to the possibility of being incorrect is a dangerous place to be in my opinion. Thankfully, I do not have to rely on feelings. Feelings can be deceiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #618 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat justification does he have for believing that he has not been decieving himself of that he has not attributed the wrong cause to whatever feeling caused him to think this way? To not even be open to the possibility of being incorrect is a dangerous place to be in my opinion. Thankfully, I do not have to rely on feelings. Feelings can be deceiving. Magic Mushrooms, then?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #619 July 12, 2006 QuoteIt's the one you don't see coming that will get you. I like your sig line. I agree. QuoteBut of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #620 July 12, 2006 Having spent 8 years ina Hebrew school I can assure the word ratsach means kill, not specifically "intentional killing without cause" as you say. There are many words in Hebrew that mean kill and they are used interchangably in the Torah. But you dont have to take my word for it. Take for example Numbers 35 27And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood: here the hebrew word ratsach is used and it very clearly states that the slayer -ratsach- is not guilty. So im sorry your argument falls apart. "The Canaanites had forsaken God and were performing acts such as burning their children as sacrifices to pagan gods. They were considered wicked by God and the order was given. The Canaanites were not innocent and deserved God’s righteous judgment. " Where is your evidence that the Cananites burnt their children?Lets be clear here, you are justifying genocide because the Cananites didnt have the correct religious beliefs. You are a Chiristian, all Jews by definition , reject Christ. So in your crazy logic you must agree with the Holocaust. I suggest that anyone who thinks genoicde is just is the lowest of the low. Quite frankly I would sooner hook up with the devil than a god that wants to comit genocide against a population becuase of their religion. The distinction you make betwen the moral law and the civil law, is one you have made up. The bible does not make any such distinction. Its very clear that the 10 commandments were given to the people of Isreal not to the whole world. As were the punishments for such transgressions. There is nothing in the text to treat them differnelty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #621 July 12, 2006 Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions: râtsach (Strong's H7523) to murder, slay, kill (Qal) to murder, slay premeditated accidental as avenger slayer (intentional) (participle) (Niphal) to be slain (Piel) to murder, assassinate murderer, assassin (participle) (substantive) (Pual) to be killed QuoteThe verse translated "Thou shalt not kill" in the KJV translation, is translated "You shall not murder" in modern translations - because these translations represents the real meaning of the Hebrew text. The Bible in Basic English translates the phrase, "Do not put anyone to death without cause." The Hebrew word used here is ratsach, which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause (unless indicated otherwise by context). Thou Shalt Not Kill: Does God Violate His Own Commandment? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #622 July 12, 2006 QuoteHave you taken the test below? How'd you do? Where will you be going when you die? Have you taken this test? Do you know what kind of sports car you are? Sorry, but I don't see any difference in a little Internet test that tells me where I'll be going when I die and a little Internet test that tells me what kind of sports car I am. They're both just silly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #623 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteHave you taken the test below? How'd you do? Where will you be going when you die? Have you taken this test? Do you know what kind of sports car you are? Sorry, but I don't see any difference in a little Internet test that tells me where I'll be going when I die and a little Internet test that tells me what kind of sports car I am. They're both just silly. And his response will be that one is from the Bible and the other is not.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #624 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteThis is belief from within himself, confirmed by the teachings of others who believed the same way. What justification does he have for believing that he has not been decieving himself of that he has not attributed the wrong cause to whatever feeling caused him to think this way? To not even be open to the possibility of being incorrect is a dangerous place to be in my opinion. You seem to be assuming that faith precludes any questioning or acceptance of an alternative, i.e. there is nothing to believe in. Am I right that you see faith and belief in a higher power as blind submission? If I am right, that's where I think the flaw lies. When you have this kind of faith and belief, there is constant questioning because there is constant challenge, both from outside and inside (how I really know? Do I trust myself, do I trust that God really is there?) But for every one of those questions, if you look 1. Deep within your own heart and find confirmation because it "feels" right, 2. To your logic and reason to know this choice is right (for you and for the world, not mutually exclusive), 3. To your reference of choice for perspective and confirmation, Then you have already questioned yourself and found you are doing what's right for you. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #625 July 12, 2006 QuoteWhere is your evidence that the Cananites burnt their children? QuoteDo not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of you God. I am the Lord. Leviticus 18:21 The Canaanites sacrificed infants to their gods as part of their religious rites. This practice was strictly forbidden by God. QuoteLets be clear here, you are justifying genocide because the Cananites didnt have the correct religious beliefs. I'm not justifying anything. I'm just telling you what God said. I don't think it was as simple as they didn't have the correct religious beliefs. I think it was because they were unrighteous. They were guilty of breaking God's moral law just like you and I are. QuoteYou are a Chiristian, all Jews by definition , reject Christ. So in your crazy logic you must agree with the Holocaust. Just for the record, I emphatically do not. QuoteI suggest that anyone who thinks genoicde is just is the lowest of the low. Quite frankly I would sooner hook up with the devil than a god that wants to comit genocide against a population becuase of their religion. 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hairyjuan 0 #604 July 11, 2006 infinite love exclude the mind control tool, the bible. why do you keep quoting out of context, the same thing you chide me for, exodus 20 i am a jeolous god. that excludes love totally. or luke 19:27 bring all unbelievers before me and slay them. INFINITE LOVE, MY ASS www.truthbeknown.comwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #605 July 11, 2006 Quoteinfinite love exclude the mind control tool, the bible. why do you keep quoting out of context, the same thing you chide me for, exodus 20 i am a jeolous god. that excludes love totally. or luke 19:27 bring all unbelievers before me and slay them. INFINITE LOVE, MY ASS Commandment #2 QuoteYou shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or one the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:4-6 In this verse, the word jealous is not used in the sense that God is envious of something that someone else has. There is nothing that God “needs” or “has to have.” He is complete. We are not here because he needs us. We are here only as an expression of his glory. In the context of Exodus, God is speaking of people making and bowing down to idols instead of giving him the worship that he deserves. He isn’t jealous of what someone else has. He is jealous of what already belongs to him. There is a big difference. QuoteThe Parable of the Ten Minas While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.' "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.' "He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. "The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.' " 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.' "The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.' "His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.' "Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.' "His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?' "Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.' " 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!' "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." Luke 19:11-27 - It explains that God's kingdom will not appear immediately - It predicts that the Lord's reign will be rejected by many - It describes the role of a disciple between the Lord's departure and his return - It describes the reckoning that awaits all Christians - It describes the punishment awaiting those who do not submit to the King. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #606 July 11, 2006 over and over and over and over, you prove that religion is mind control! the bible is not a historical record. in any way ,shape, or form. again, you take it out of context. provide me with exigent records from other writers of the time, excluding pliny, suetonius, josephus, because they are PROVEN FORGERIES. there are none! no reasonably intelligent person would accept the statement that the bible proves itself! in exodus it says i am a jealous god.. jealousy is the root of fear. STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT was stated at the very beginning of this thread, religion is the cause of division, still the truth.we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #607 July 12, 2006 Its a serious question. Is your resposnse a lazy way to doddge it? "You’d be guilty of breaking the 6th Commandment and God will hold it against you. " This is a laughable comment quite frankly. There are countless commands by god to kill in the bible. So are you saying that everyone who follows gods commands are also breaking gods laws? I have already shown you the passage in the bible that tells us the punishment for blasphamey is death. Its not the only death penalty in the bible, Im sure you know that. God commanded the death penalty for adultery: Leviticus 20:10-12 10And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Those that claim some of the vile laws in the OT only apply to OT Isreal should tell us why the 10 commandments should be treated differently, after all they were given to OT Isreal as well. Lets not forget what jesus said: Mathew 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. He had the chance to say unambigously -I have come to tear the old laws up, that they dont apply that one shouldnt execute blasphemeres, gays, adulterers and sabbath breakers- but he didnt. So he is at worst a tryant and at best contradictory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #608 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteWow. No evidence at all, not even in principle. I wish I could think of a nicer way of saying it but it would be a waste of time for anyone to try to tell you anything then. My wife tells me that... Sometimes... Well at least you have a sense of humour about it. But seriously, even if I could provide proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that god was fictional, you'd still beleive the superstitions of a bunch of bronze age nomads over your own eyes? Surely you can't be serious? Can people really have their minds so completely welded shut by that book of yours? I can't even imagine why anyone would want to do that. Why would you do that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #609 July 12, 2006 Not trying to speak for Pajarito, but here's my perception: It's not someone or something else that he's believing. This is belief from within himself, confirmed by the teachings of others who believed the same way. There seems to be a cart vs. horse disagreement here. Faith and love and God are the horse, the bible and moral law and all the other "how we should do things", is the cart. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #610 July 12, 2006 QuoteThis is a laughable comment quite frankly. There are countless commands by god to kill in the bible. So are you saying that everyone who follows gods commands are also breaking gods laws? I have already shown you the passage in the bible that tells us the punishment for blasphamey is death. Its not the only death penalty in the bible, Im sure you know that. Just some background: The Hebrew word used in 6th Commandment is ratsach which translates “intentional killing without cause” (e.g. murder). Hebrew law recognized accidental killing as not punishable. In these instances, the Hebrew word nakah is used. For God (or anyone else) to be guilty of murder, the killing would have to be unjustified or without cause. This is never the case with God or for anyone he commanded to kill. God is always completely holy and just. When God ordered Joshua, for example, to kill the people of Canaan, Joshua was completely justified in his actions. The Canaanites had forsaken God and were performing acts such as burning their children as sacrifices to pagan gods. They were considered wicked by God and the order was given. The Canaanites were not innocent and deserved God’s righteous judgment. The penalty for your sin today has not changed since then. God is merely withholding judgment and giving you the time to repent and trust in him. QuoteGod commanded the death penalty for adultery: Leviticus 20:10-12 10And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. This is righteous judgment. The ultimate penalty is the same now as it was then. Anyone with sin on their record when called to accountability on the Day of Judgment will be put to death. Righteous judgment was immediately delivered in those days for sins against God. It has been withheld now due to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. In those days, people could only be justified before God through their faith. It had to be great faith measured by God himself. QuoteThose that claim some of the vile laws in the OT only apply to OT Isreal should tell us why the 10 commandments should be treated differently, after all they were given to OT Isreal as well. Because they are different. Quote The commands of the Old Testament are divided generally into moral law, ceremonial law and civil law. The moral law (i.e. the 10 commandments) remain in effect and few people would question that. The ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not binding anymore. The civil law (stoning for adultery, etc.) was the law of the nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and is not the civil law of any other nation. QuoteLets not forget what jesus said: Mathew 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Exactly! And that is precisely why you, as an unbeliever, are still under the weight of the law and will be held accountable to it on the Day of Judgment. It is why it is still as valid today as it was when it was given. He wasn’t speaking of the laws of a particular nation or those which applied to a particular ceremony of a people. He was talking about God’s laws (e.g. His laws). The fulfillment of the law is through him and only him. You can’t say that you’ve kept the 10 Commandments or that it is even possible for you to do so. He is the atoning sacrifice for your having broken the law, being under penalty of death, and unable to pay your own fine. QuoteHe had the chance to say unambigously -I have come to tear the old laws up, that they dont apply that one shouldnt execute blasphemeres, gays, adulterers and sabbath breakers- but he didnt. The punishment for the transgression of the law that you mentioned has not changed. It is death. As you stated above, however, Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it. There is a New Covenant with God through his atoning sacrifice. Judgment has been withheld but not forever. You will have to answer for every thought and deed done during your lifetime. QuoteSo he is at worst a tryant and at best contradictory. You just broke Commandment # 3. Quote "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain." Exodus 20:7 Quote But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. Romans 2:5 Where will you be going when you die? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #611 July 12, 2006 QuoteBut seriously, even if I could provide proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that god was fictional, you'd still beleive the superstitions of a bunch of bronze age nomads over your own eyes? If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass-a-hoppin (maybe it will evolve some eventually). Whatcha got? Even some of our most brilliant scientists can't discount the possibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #612 July 12, 2006 more proof that the bible is a fraud! The stories in exodus are totally false If the events were real, the locusts, the deaths of the first-born, the rivers turning to blood, etc., Egyptian historians would have recorded them also. The now translated hieroglyphics make no mention of the catastrophies mentioned in exodus, nor do they refer to any Hebrew slaves. Once again, everyone who claims the bible is true, prove by that statement, that RELIGION IS MIND CONTROL.we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #613 July 12, 2006 Quotemore proof that the bible is a fraud! The stories in exodus are totally false If the events were real, the locusts, the deaths of the first-born, the rivers turning to blood, etc., Egyptian historians would have recorded them also. The now translated hieroglyphics make no mention of the catastrophies mentioned in exodus, nor do they refer to any Hebrew slaves. Once again, everyone who claims the bible is true, prove by that statement, that RELIGION IS MIND CONTROL. Interesting article concerning this topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #614 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteBut seriously, even if I could provide proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that god was fictional, you'd still beleive the superstitions of a bunch of bronze age nomads over your own eyes? If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass-a-hoppin (maybe it will evolve some eventually). Whatcha got? Even some of our most brilliant scientists can't discount the possibility. I have no idea what that lot means but I suggest you read up on what a scientific theory actually is and why scientists provide caveats even to the best of them. Regarding evolution, there is a wealth of evidence to suggest that evolution and natural selection is the way life has developed on this earth. You can watch evolution at work in the lab. As a scientific theory, natural selection is the absolute best theory we have. You can read about it in The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins, here's the complete book so you don't even have to buy it. Could the theory be wrong? Of course it could but even if it is, it still does amazingly well at explaining the diversity of life on this planet. But apparently this mountain of evidence is not good enough for you. Instead you are choose to believe a copy of a translation of a 2000 year old chinese whisper that might have been told about a bloke who might have existed and might have been the son of god if god even exists (for which there is no evidence at all). But none of that is my point. My point is that even if I could prove that god is fictional so that no sane, rational, logical thinking person could ever doubt me, you'd still cling on to your godidit beliefs. That just seems so mind bogglingly off the scale nutty that I just can't beleive anyone could actually feel that way. Yet apparently you do and I have absolutely no idea why you would want to do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #615 July 12, 2006 QuoteMy point is that even if I could prove that god is fictional so that no sane, rational, logical thinking person could ever doubt me, You can't. Added: Have you taken the test below? How'd you do? Where will you be going when you die? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #616 July 12, 2006 QuoteThis is belief from within himself, confirmed by the teachings of others who believed the same way. What justification does he have for believing that he has not been decieving himself of that he has not attributed the wrong cause to whatever feeling caused him to think this way? To not even be open to the possibility of being incorrect is a dangerous place to be in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #617 July 12, 2006 QuoteWhat justification does he have for believing that he has not been decieving himself of that he has not attributed the wrong cause to whatever feeling caused him to think this way? To not even be open to the possibility of being incorrect is a dangerous place to be in my opinion. Thankfully, I do not have to rely on feelings. Feelings can be deceiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #618 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat justification does he have for believing that he has not been decieving himself of that he has not attributed the wrong cause to whatever feeling caused him to think this way? To not even be open to the possibility of being incorrect is a dangerous place to be in my opinion. Thankfully, I do not have to rely on feelings. Feelings can be deceiving. Magic Mushrooms, then?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #619 July 12, 2006 QuoteIt's the one you don't see coming that will get you. I like your sig line. I agree. QuoteBut of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #620 July 12, 2006 Having spent 8 years ina Hebrew school I can assure the word ratsach means kill, not specifically "intentional killing without cause" as you say. There are many words in Hebrew that mean kill and they are used interchangably in the Torah. But you dont have to take my word for it. Take for example Numbers 35 27And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood: here the hebrew word ratsach is used and it very clearly states that the slayer -ratsach- is not guilty. So im sorry your argument falls apart. "The Canaanites had forsaken God and were performing acts such as burning their children as sacrifices to pagan gods. They were considered wicked by God and the order was given. The Canaanites were not innocent and deserved God’s righteous judgment. " Where is your evidence that the Cananites burnt their children?Lets be clear here, you are justifying genocide because the Cananites didnt have the correct religious beliefs. You are a Chiristian, all Jews by definition , reject Christ. So in your crazy logic you must agree with the Holocaust. I suggest that anyone who thinks genoicde is just is the lowest of the low. Quite frankly I would sooner hook up with the devil than a god that wants to comit genocide against a population becuase of their religion. The distinction you make betwen the moral law and the civil law, is one you have made up. The bible does not make any such distinction. Its very clear that the 10 commandments were given to the people of Isreal not to the whole world. As were the punishments for such transgressions. There is nothing in the text to treat them differnelty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #621 July 12, 2006 Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions: râtsach (Strong's H7523) to murder, slay, kill (Qal) to murder, slay premeditated accidental as avenger slayer (intentional) (participle) (Niphal) to be slain (Piel) to murder, assassinate murderer, assassin (participle) (substantive) (Pual) to be killed QuoteThe verse translated "Thou shalt not kill" in the KJV translation, is translated "You shall not murder" in modern translations - because these translations represents the real meaning of the Hebrew text. The Bible in Basic English translates the phrase, "Do not put anyone to death without cause." The Hebrew word used here is ratsach, which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause (unless indicated otherwise by context). Thou Shalt Not Kill: Does God Violate His Own Commandment? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #622 July 12, 2006 QuoteHave you taken the test below? How'd you do? Where will you be going when you die? Have you taken this test? Do you know what kind of sports car you are? Sorry, but I don't see any difference in a little Internet test that tells me where I'll be going when I die and a little Internet test that tells me what kind of sports car I am. They're both just silly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #623 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteHave you taken the test below? How'd you do? Where will you be going when you die? Have you taken this test? Do you know what kind of sports car you are? Sorry, but I don't see any difference in a little Internet test that tells me where I'll be going when I die and a little Internet test that tells me what kind of sports car I am. They're both just silly. And his response will be that one is from the Bible and the other is not.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #624 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteThis is belief from within himself, confirmed by the teachings of others who believed the same way. What justification does he have for believing that he has not been decieving himself of that he has not attributed the wrong cause to whatever feeling caused him to think this way? To not even be open to the possibility of being incorrect is a dangerous place to be in my opinion. You seem to be assuming that faith precludes any questioning or acceptance of an alternative, i.e. there is nothing to believe in. Am I right that you see faith and belief in a higher power as blind submission? If I am right, that's where I think the flaw lies. When you have this kind of faith and belief, there is constant questioning because there is constant challenge, both from outside and inside (how I really know? Do I trust myself, do I trust that God really is there?) But for every one of those questions, if you look 1. Deep within your own heart and find confirmation because it "feels" right, 2. To your logic and reason to know this choice is right (for you and for the world, not mutually exclusive), 3. To your reference of choice for perspective and confirmation, Then you have already questioned yourself and found you are doing what's right for you. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #625 July 12, 2006 QuoteWhere is your evidence that the Cananites burnt their children? QuoteDo not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of you God. I am the Lord. Leviticus 18:21 The Canaanites sacrificed infants to their gods as part of their religious rites. This practice was strictly forbidden by God. QuoteLets be clear here, you are justifying genocide because the Cananites didnt have the correct religious beliefs. I'm not justifying anything. I'm just telling you what God said. I don't think it was as simple as they didn't have the correct religious beliefs. I think it was because they were unrighteous. They were guilty of breaking God's moral law just like you and I are. QuoteYou are a Chiristian, all Jews by definition , reject Christ. So in your crazy logic you must agree with the Holocaust. Just for the record, I emphatically do not. QuoteI suggest that anyone who thinks genoicde is just is the lowest of the low. Quite frankly I would sooner hook up with the devil than a god that wants to comit genocide against a population becuase of their religion. Reference Job 38 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
