pajarito 0 #376 July 3, 2006 Quote This isn't personally directed at anyone but you have to remember... you can ask questions like that to people who believe in the eternal nature of one's personal existence, but for people who disregard that as a non-truth, the question serves no real purpose. I believe that everyone (even atheists) deep down at the most basic level realizes deep down (even though they might not understand or even if they are rebelling against the notion and won’t admit it) that their soul is eternal and does not just end when we die. I also believe that everyone has an internal will to live that kicks in when the realization hits that we are going to die one day (maybe soon). Especially if they come to realize that they are in big trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaiziel 0 #377 July 3, 2006 I think there is a better way to phrase this. I believe that everyone, at one point or another (even atheists) deep down at the most basic level, feels that they want their spirit to be eternal and not just end when we die. I think that is, ironically, a stronger statement. Most people do not want to die. It's one of the primary reasons humans survive. Their is a will to survive. And the feelings you have of a hoped-for eternal existence are not surprising when you look at the context of the people/society/nature in and of our lives. You don't have to be a christian to want to live forever.---------------------------------------- 6.8% - Almost there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #378 July 3, 2006 Quote I believe that everyone (even atheists) deep down at the most basic level realizes deep down (even though they might not understand or even if they are rebelling against the notion and won’t admit it) that their soul is eternal and does not just end when we die It doenst matter how many time you say deep down, you are wrong in that belief.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #379 July 3, 2006 Quote Quote I believe that everyone (even atheists) deep down at the most basic level realizes deep down (even though they might not understand or even if they are rebelling against the notion and won’t admit it) that their soul is eternal and does not just end when we die It doenst matter how many time you say deep down, you are wrong in that belief. How can you categorically say that I'm wrong? You would have to possess all knowledge to make such a statement. As would any atheist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #380 July 3, 2006 Quote How can you categorically say that I'm wrong? You're the one who claimed absolute knowledge! : " believe that everyone " Quote You would have to possess all knowledge to make such a statement All I affirm is that at least 1 (me in case I need to spell things out) person doesnt fall into your presumption.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #381 July 3, 2006 Quote How can you categorically say that I'm wrong? We can not say that you are wrong anymore than you can say that you are right. Your beliefs are based upon words written in a book that many of us don't believe in. It's as simple as that. As far as I'm concerned, "The Burble" and "The Holy Ka-boom" all belong in the fiction section of the library and/or book stores. The universe is too vast with too much unknown about it to believe in a series of man-made religious texts written before humans had a real understanding of science and the universe we live in. But your Burble continues to teach people that the world was created in 7 days and that everything revolves around us and our puny little star which happens to give us life and all we need to do is believe in some fictional character and we will live forever in paradise. And if we don't accept this fictional character as our Lord and Savior, we end up burning in hell for eternity. Sounds like fiction to me ... but it's all reality to people like you. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #382 July 3, 2006 Quote How can you categorically say that I'm wrong? You would have to possess all knowledge to make such a statement. As would any atheist. I can categorically say you are wrong because I have knowledge of myself. I do not believe at any depth that there is a soul - therefore I disprove your statement. Besides, we've had this conversation - I think that most christians deep down know that death is the end, crying at funerals yada yada yada.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #383 July 4, 2006 jakee, this is not directed at you, at all, just the convenience to post. THE BIBLE IS A MYTH AS ARE ANY AND ALL RELIGIONS. THE PLAIN AND SIMPLE TRUTH ABOUT IT IS THIS-IT IS AN ALLEGORY FOR SUN WORSHIP ANDNEVER, EVER MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #384 July 4, 2006 A point in every direction is the same as no point at all. What movie is that from??? linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #385 July 4, 2006 Quote Quote Quote I believe that everyone (even atheists) deep down at the most basic level realizes deep down (even though they might not understand or even if they are rebelling against the notion and won’t admit it) that their soul is eternal and does not just end when we die It doenst matter how many time you say deep down, you are wrong in that belief. How can you categorically say that I'm wrong? You would have to possess all knowledge to make such a statement. As would any atheist. You would have to know everyone in order to make your claim. I seriously doubt that you do.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #386 July 4, 2006 Paj, I don't know about you, but I'm ready to knock the clay off my cleats and move on... 'til the next thread starts, anyway! See ya' there.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #387 July 4, 2006 Quote Quote Quote Quote I believe that everyone (even atheists) deep down at the most basic level realizes deep down (even though they might not understand or even if they are rebelling against the notion and won’t admit it) that their soul is eternal and does not just end when we die It doenst matter how many time you say deep down, you are wrong in that belief. How can you categorically say that I'm wrong? You would have to possess all knowledge to make such a statement. As would any atheist. You would have to know everyone in order to make your claim. I seriously doubt that you do. do you think that maybe if hairyjuan posts the same links ONE MORE TIME, they will become true? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #388 July 4, 2006 Quote Paj, I don't know about you, but I'm ready to knock the clay off my cleats and move on... 'til the next thread starts, anyway! See ya' there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #389 July 4, 2006 Quote You don't have to be a christian to want to live forever. I agree and that is what I was talking about. Regardless of whether you're religious or not, however, it should compel one to seek answers to the big questions. If I am honest with a self-examination of my own nature, I am forced to admit that I've lied, stolen, committed adultery (in my mind), been disobedient to my parents, hated others, to name a few. I personally base that on a standard greater than myself. I'm forced to admit to myself that my nature is not good. That doesn't mean that I don't do things which I would consider good "by my standards" or by what your standard of goodness might be. It means that, at its root, my nature is one of selfishness. That indicates to me that something is wrong. Even without being religious, one should realize there are big problems with the equation of our being. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #390 July 4, 2006 Quote It means that, at its root, my nature is one of selfishness. That indicates to me that something is wrong. Even without being religious, one should realize there are big problems with the equation of our being. Pretty much every creature on the planet is selfish by nature. The fact that we can think in an abstract way about what might be good and evil is what makes us human, but i see no reason why that should imply the existense of a deity.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #391 July 4, 2006 Quote It means that, at its root, my nature is one of selfishness. That indicates to me that something is wrong. Even without being religious, one should realize there are big problems with the equation of our being. I find it interesting that you believe the fact that we are imperfect means we were designed by something that is perfect.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #392 July 4, 2006 "I believe that everyone (even atheists) deep down at the most basic level realizes deep down (even though they might not understand or even if they are rebelling against the notion and won’t admit it) that their soul is eternal " I can asure you, that you are wrong. I dont believe in a soul let alone an eternal one. Neither does Remster so thats at least two of us, I suspect there might be more. Its very arrogant of you to tell other people what they believe deep down. Are you sure you are not just projecting your own beliefs onto other people? Some people are compelled to seek answers to the big questions as you put it, some are not, so what? " I am forced to admit that I've lied, stolen, committed adultery (in my mind), been disobedient to my parents, hated others, to name a few. I personally base that on a standard greater than myself. I'm forced to admit to myself that my nature is not good." i think you are being too harsh on yourself. Youve committed adultery in your mind, what are you on about? If i see a nice car and wish it were mine have ai committed theft in my mind? when i recall a film I saw in the cinema am I committing video piracy in my mind. I don't think so. All animlas are capable fo both selfish and co operative behaviour. I think co operative behaviour in animlas(including humans) is more common than you think. One only has to be aware that tit for tat consitently beat always defect in prisoner dilema simulations to see evidence for that. Even if it were true that we were by nature selfish, if you believe a god created us then its clearly his fault, dont blame yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #393 July 4, 2006 Your reply is to pajarito, not me. I don't believe in soul either.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #394 July 4, 2006 Quote I find it interesting that you believe the fact that we are imperfect means we were designed by something that is perfect. We were created in His image/likeness. If a perfect painter painted a painting, would the painting that he painted have to be perfect like the painter who painted it? ...that was fun. I don't think so. We have free will to choose. That's how it is possible to have a relationship with something. It has to have the choice to not want a relationship with you for there to be any real meaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #395 July 4, 2006 Quote Pretty much every creature on the planet is selfish by nature. The fact that we can think in an abstract way about what might be good and evil is what makes us human, but i see no reason why that should imply the existense of a deity. I agree. That is what differentiates us from the animals. We are self-aware and know right from wrong. When we sin, we do it with knowledge that it is wrong. It's called our conscience (with-knowledge). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #396 July 4, 2006 Quote You don't have to be a christian to want to live forever. I agree and that is what I was talking about. Regardless of whether you're religious or not, however, it should compel one to seek answers to the big questions. If I am honest with a self-examination of my own nature, I am forced to admit that I've lied, stolen, committed adultery (in my mind), been disobedient to my parents, hated others, to name a few. I personally base that on a standard greater than myself. I'm forced to admit to myself that my nature is not good. That doesn't mean that I don't do things which I would consider good "by my standards" or by what your standard of goodness might be. It means that, at its root, my nature is one of selfishness. That indicates to me that something is wrong. Even without being religious, one should realize there are big problems with the equation of our being. Added:The problem comes in when we consider the idea of absolute right and wrong. If it exists, can some of one exist in or with the other? The Bible makes it clear that it cannot and that justice demands payment for breaking this absolute morality. Given the enormity of what we're talking about with regard to God and the infinite gulf between good and evil, the penalty is death and the separation is complete. But that is just putting it into a term we can understand. The reality is that it is incomprehensibly worse. I think it's something very important for all of us to consider given that we are all going to die. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #397 July 4, 2006 Quote That is what differentiates us from the animals. We are self-aware and know right from wrong. Don't know much about cats, do you?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #398 July 4, 2006 Quote i think you are being too harsh on yourself. Youve committed adultery in your mind, what are you on about? It’s all about motive. You don’t have to perform the act to be guilty. You’ve thought about it. You have the ability to do it. Jesus said, "You have heard it said by them of old, Thou shalt not commit adultery, but I say unto you, that whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her, has committed adultery already with her in his heart." That’s not speaking about within the confines of marriage. He sees your thought life and the quality of your soul. He sees the depth of your goodness which is to say the lack thereof. Quote If i see a nice car and wish it were mine have ai committed theft in my mind? Desiring something that belongs to someone else is called coveting and is wrong. Desiring to have one like that other person when it is within your means to achieve it is not. Also, desiring that something above all else would be considered idolatry. Quote when i recall a film I saw in the cinema am I committing video piracy in my mind. I don't think so. I don’t believe there is any commandment against the act of watching a movie. The movie content may add some problems, though. Quote All animlas are capable fo both selfish and co operative behaviour. I think co operative behaviour in animlas(including humans) is more common than you think. One only has to be aware that tit for tat consitently beat always defect in prisoner dilema simulations to see evidence for that. Even if it were true that we were by nature selfish, if you believe a god created us then its clearly his fault, dont blame yourself. Free will in order to have relationship. A robot would not make a very meaningful companion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #399 July 4, 2006 Quote Quote That is what differentiates us from the animals. We are self-aware and know right from wrong. Don't know much about cats, do you? I own 3. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #400 July 4, 2006 Quote All animlas are capable fo both selfish and co operative behaviour. I think co operative behaviour in animlas(including humans) is more common than you think. One only has to be aware that tit for tat consitently beat always defect in prisoner dilema simulations to see evidence for that. Quote Quote For example, some people wrote to me saying, ‘isn’t what you call the Moral Law simply our herd instinct and hasn’t it been developed just like all our other instincts?’ Now I do not deny that we may have a herd instinct: but that is not what I mean by the Moral Law. We all know what it feels like to be prompted by instinct – by mother love, or sexual instinct, or the instinct for food. It means that you feel a strong want or desire to act in a certain way. And, of course, we sometimes do feel just that sort of desire to help another person: and no doubt that desire is due to the herd instinct. But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you ought to help whether you want to or not. Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires – one a desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides which should be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them. You might as well say that the sheet of music which tells you, at a given moment, to play one note on the piano and not another, is itself one of the notes on the keyboard. The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys. --C.S. Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
