i'm NOT christian... and proud of it!!!

[Royd 0]

Quote

It’s all about motive. You don’t have to perform the act to be guilty. You’ve thought about it."
If that were true and valid why not make our civil law on that basis? Someone thought about committing a crime, so why dont we arrest them and have a thought police?

It has already happened. They are classified as "hate" crimes.

[hairyjuan 0]

too bad paj, every post, you prove that religion is mind control. jesus couldn't have said what you claim because the whole story is a myth. you deny the truth and live in slavery to the fear your religion has instilled in you. love and fear cannot exist in the same time, space continuum. if you won't read what i have offered you it is double the proof that RELIGION IS MIND CONTROL

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[windcatcher 0]

Hairyjuan, just who are you trying to convince the Bible isn't God's word...us or yourself?

How do you know God's word ISN'T a myth? How can you deny the TRUTH that is in God's word?

Satan goes around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour...he comes to steal, kill and destroy. ( Bible quote)

Do you not believe he has power to deceive people from the truth? Do you not believe he wants to rip families apart, have people bound to sexual and drug addictions, commit suicide, encourage molestation?

Where do you think those things come from?

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[jakee 1,558]

Quote

How can you deny the TRUTH that is in God's word?

I deny it. <--- Just like that.

Quote

Do you not believe he has power to deceive people from the truth? Do you not believe he wants to rip families apart, have people bound to sexual and drug addictions, commit suicide, encourage molestation?

Of course not.

Quote

Where do you think those things come from?

People.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[shaiziel 0]

Quote

Quote

Where do you think those things come from?

People.

Yeah, last time I checked, Satan doesn't make anyone do anything. All that bad stuff you mentioned is, as you would put it, of our nature.

----------------------------------------
6.8% - Almost there!

[hairyjuan 0]

have you read the book i sent you, windcatcher? i'm not trying to convince anyone. i'm the messenger, telling everyone the truth about the lie that all religions are, if you choose to remain ignorant of the mythological nature of your religion, that is your problem. the pope told you the truth when he said, "what profit hath that FABLE OF CHRIST brought us." do unto others as you would have done to you-Xtianity"s 'golden rule'. do what thou will, but harm no one-wicca's 'golden rule. i find it quite amusing that you call wiccans 'satanists and the basic idea behind both is IDENTICAL.


windcatcher, you said you would read the books i send you, does your word have no honor? send your address and i,ll send them. it is the myth of all myths. jesus crucifixion and resurection is a very COMMON theme in ALL ancient religions. i forget the 'scriptural' site that the bibleis truebecause it is the bible, but that very notion is ABSOLUTELY, TOTALLY ABSURD. why don't you look into it, failure to look proves mind-control, lovely lady.

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[shaiziel 0]

Quote

"It’s because we aren’t capable of knowing the thought life of an individual. "
So if it were possible you would be happy to arrest people for their thoughts?

"Both free will and predestination can be shown to exist equally in scripture. Some call this a paradox because we can’t understand how they work together and that they appear to be mutually exclusive. They obviously exist together. We just don’t understand how. "

So what you are saying is that yes you recognise the contradiction between free will and determinism. But becuase that contradiction is in the bible and you believe the bible doesnt have contradictions then it cant be a contradiction. HHm see your circular reasoning? Its amazing how bible people just assume its all true and then get the result its all true!

Here is what I think he's missing.

The theory goes that god created man with the free will which is supposedly evident by the fact that one can choose to have faith in god or choose to deny god. While the only "logical" choice by christian reasoning is to choose to have faith, despite all reasoning, so you won't go to hell. It's fear based choice-making, but they call it love.

ANYWAY... the "paradox" arises when christians say that god is all-knowing. Specifically, this implies that god knows what choices we will make, whether to accept god or deny god. However, in human logic, for one to know which option an individual will choose, implies that the person who knows has some sort of control over the situation. But if god has control over the situation, then your will is not truly free. Logically, if god knows that you will never accept salvation, then there is nothing you can do to accept salvation. As such, you don't really have a choice to accept salvation. Since god knows and all. Popular example, man denies god all his life. He has a slow death and, on his deathbed, since god "knows the man's heart" god knows that the man will continue to deny the free gift of salvation. But how can god know what a man will choose if the man has free will?

A. God isn't all knowing
B. Man doesn't have free will

The trick to this is that if you choose option A, you're speaking blasphemy according to the church. If you choose option B, you're still speaking blasphemy according to the church. (However I do not know if it actually states in the bible that man has a free will. As far as I know, it doesn't.)

The christian answer, which you can only have available to you if you're a christian, is to say that god exists outside the confines of time so god can see into the future that you won't make the decision to accept salvation. If that doesn't compute with you, then essentially christians just say "Tough shit, have faith" or... more eloquently "I don't know, but I have faith in god's plan for me and everyone else."

COP OUT ANSWER!

You'll probably be reminded that using human logic to understand god will never work since god is not bound by logic. At that point, you should come to realize that you cannot, I repeat, CANNOT have a logical conversation with a christian for too long.

Hell it even defies logic for a christian to say "We can't understand/know the true nature of god. Our minds are too limited." Because you have, in the bible, things that are written, by people mind you, that explain attributes to the nature of god.

"We don't understand god, but we know that god is omnipotent, omnipresence, unbound by time and physics, and 100% perfect."

I mean, how in the fuck can you argue with that? You can't.

"This doesn't make sense can you explain it?"
"Well... no, but I can assure you it's right."

Anyway, long ago I accepted these ideas.

If god exists:

1. There is no hell, and heaven as it is taught probably isn't true.
2. Humans were never perfect and were never intended to be perfect, as such, the need for perfection, through salvation or otherwise, is unnecessary.
3. God does not know what choice you will make in the context of faith/denial in/of god. But god doesn't blame you for denial.. as god, in god's infinite wisdom, knows that a large portion of mankind will succumb to denial due to logical inconsistencies with what they have been taught about god.
4. In god's infinite mercy, you will not be punished outside of living a life without faith in god, if you consider that a punishment.
5. If god is all-powerful, then god has power over sin and can provide salvation without the need for sacrifice. In case you didn't notice, the idea of sacrifice to any god isn't exactly a selling point to any religion. Think of the story where god tells the man to kill his only son to show his faith. Yeah, that's barbarism and we dont do that any more. New and improved christianity lets you in to heaven, all you have to say is that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. Sweet deal! And you didn't even have to kill your child or an animal. New testament god rocks!

Some christians say that if god gave everyone salvation then they wouldn't have free will because god would effectively be making the decision for everyone. Well I think you'll find, many people would trade the ability to make this decision for an eternity in heaven. Besides, it's not like being bound to god's will or having free will made angels any more content. A third of them still went with satan.

Speaking of angels and satan.

There was a point I believed that if god existed, and god is as god is characterized in the old testament, the vengelful, tantrum throwing, murderous dude he is, I theorized that perhaps satan was kicked out for pointing out (and acting accordingly) to god that the way god was handling humanity (holding fallible humanity accountable to an infallible law, when man was created fallible) unethically (see: the flood, sodom and gomorrah.) It essentially made god out to be the bad guy and satan the good guy. After all, in the old testament, god wasn't very merciful (see: the canaanites and every other civilization god told his chosen people to eradicate) so it made sense.

But that was all back when I believed that god existed. Now I just have ideas about existence despite whether or not god exists.
Whatever, I'll wait for more responses.

EDIT: I should add this. If god is all-powerful, and not bound by time, and if god really wants every human being to go to heaven, then god should have no trouble inspiring everyone to make the right decision while not counteracting free will. Am I right? I mean god knows what choice we will make in the end and some how manages to not be in control of our choice.

If mankind is the child of god, and being the child, we are not capable of taking care of ourselves, then we are god's responsibility. God supposedly made us the way we are and apparently we are inaqequate without god. So if one man fails and is punished with an eternity spent in hell, seperated from his creator and all things love and joyful, who's fault is that? The man who, due to lacking the experiences and upbringing or whatever other variables, failed to "see the light?" Or the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present deity that created the man?

Does a parent let a baby stick objects in an electrical outlet after telling the baby "No." so that the baby may learn through experience? No parent that I wouldn't think twice to backhand. If we are as children in god's sight, and effectively prone to making child-like mistakes due to child-like understanding and capabilities, are we in any position to be responsible for our proposed eternal souls? Hardly.

I'm sorry, but if you're going to tell me my "eternal soul" is my responsibility when, according to your orthodoxy, I am wholly incapable of making correct decisions consistently, the fuck if I'm going to agree to being responsible for something I don't even understand. This is where you say "and that is why you need god. So that you can make the right decisions and follow his will."

Again, what of the people who, by being human, do not choose faith? Is not everyone entitled to a Saul-like experience. A man who killed christians with a passion turns into one of the greatest christians ever known? Is it not within god's capacity, and certainly, is it not god's responsibility, to do everything in all god's infinite power, to show someone the truth so that they may make the correct decision? If the cross can forgive the worst of sins, how can it not forgive the sin of making a mistake in denying god?

I think of this. If a man hates god, god didn't show the man enough of god's love. If god stops showing love due to the man having a "hardened heart", then that man's soul is on god's hands.

----------------------------------------
6.8% - Almost there!

[yourmomma 0]

Dude, please, for the love of the vengeful cunt in the sky capitalize the first letter in your sentences. Not using proper grammar(which I am guilty of myself )does nothing to bolster your position. I agree with what you say but reading your sentences make’s my fucking head hurt. Thank you and god bless.

[caspar 0]

Quote

How do you know God's word ISN'T a myth? How can you deny the TRUTH that is in God's word?

those kind of remarks are what make me really angry. no one can prove them so dont bring it up as part of your argument unless you have an answer to give (based on cold hard facts)

how do you know he isnt real and that there isnt a heaven? *........CRACK* .... bitch went down ....

(not a personal attack, just on people who use those questions in their arguments.)

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[caspar 0]

Quote

Quote

How can you deny the TRUTH that is in God's word?

I deny it. <--- Just like that.

Quote

Do you not believe he has power to deceive people from the truth? Do you not believe he wants to rip families apart, have people bound to sexual and drug addictions, commit suicide, encourage molestation?

Of course not.

Quote

Where do you think those things come from?

People.

perfect reply

this thread has reminded me how angry christians make me. its like trying to explain something to a retarded person and youre not allowed to go unti they get it. we have logic, you have blind faith.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[JackC 0]

Good post there Shaiziel, nail --> head.

Quote

You'll probably be reminded that using human logic to understand god will never work since god is not bound by logic. At that point, you should come to realize that you cannot, I repeat, CANNOT have a logical conversation with a christian for too long.

Ain't that the truth!

[Royd 0]

Quote

Both free will and predestination can be shown to exist equally in scripture. Some call this a paradox because we can’t understand how they work together and that they appear to be mutually exclusive. They obviously exist together. We just don’t understand how. "

Romans8:28-30And we know that all things work together for good to them that loveGod, to them who are THE CALLED according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he callled, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Chew on this, all you unbeleivers. Unless God reaches down and touches you, you will continue to rant against something that you say doesn't even exist.

[jakee 1,558]

Quote

Chew on this, all you unbeleivers. Unless God reaches down and touches you, you will continue to rant against something that you say doesn't even exist.

Three cheers for a first class missing of the point.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[JackC 0]

Quote

Chew on this, all you unbeleivers. Unless God reaches down and touches you, you will continue to rant against something that you say doesn't even exist.

So you're saying I'm destined for hell as an infidel because of Gods incompetance in the PR department?

Pure genius.

[shaiziel 0]

According to the calvinist view, no matter what you do, if you are not called by god, you will not be saved. You can love god and have faith in god and live a life for god all you want, in the end, you won't be saved. Of course they say that if you're not called, you won't have faith in god so the problems are mutually exclusive.

This view provides a severe discredit to the nature of god as a merciful and gracious being. Let's recap.

God created you the way you are, tells you to be totally different, punishes you eternally if you don't make the correct decision while being supplied meager, at best, evidence for god's existence.

You're created with free will but gods will is that you worship/serve god which is counter to the will of your sinful nature. So if you exercise your free will, and make a choice god would not have you make, you get punished eternally.

And now Royd has brought to our attention, the notion that god created everyone, but not everyone will be chosen by god to be saved. So for some of us out here, we might as well just kill ourselves now because, unknowingly, we are incapable of accepting god's eternal prize of salvation, which would logically say that in fact, we do not have free will. We cannot choose heaven over hell because god did not choose us. Why did he not choose us? Because god knows the nature of our hearts and, as the movie "Dogma" illustrates, god can't be proved wrong or else really bad things start happening. Remember, god's will be done, not yours. So why in the hell do you even bother with having free will. You're damned or you're not, and there's about jack shit you can do about it.

Ladies and gentlemen, what we have here is a logical meltdown. It doesn't make any sense. Why love a god who will not choose to accept someone into his fold, and who, by making a choice, overrides your ability to make a choice?

I present to you the idea of a god, if god exists, that wants nothing more from you than an effort to seek the truth and maybe, after seeking, having "faith" in it. But this god doesn't punish you for making a mistake or failing. Because this god has an all-encompassing and infinite love for it's creation; even the worst among us.

Yeah, forget it. Too good to be true. Lets stick with god the loving murderer (justified in his actions of course) who sends to eternal damnation the very thing he created because it didn't turn out right.

I ask, does it seem like we've spent more time in history making god in our image just because we say we're made in his? Cause what we've been left with is an all-powerful being with a child's temper and the incapacity to behave logically. I couldn't imagine a more dangerous and horrible human being, let alone, a god.

----------------------------------------
6.8% - Almost there!

[hairyjuan 0]

In their 'divinely inspired word of god' says that only 144,000 are the 'chosen', the rest are servants to the chosen. What a wonderful place the mythical kingdom of borg will be. Once again, there are ABSOLUTELY no corroborating writnings from the time that mention the existance of this mythical character. no bible thumper can prove ANYTHING to prove this false, all they can do is say, "The bible is the divinely inspired word of god, it must be true. the bible was written by men. if they were 'divinely-inspired' they were what we call psychics today!

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[Rebecca 0]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just everyone.

It's just striking me as so silly that anyone can claim to know anything definitive about God by looking outside themselves.

"I have the answer because [insert book] told me!"

"You're wrong! It's just a book, so I know it can't be right!"

"But [insert Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, or other person with something good to say] said so! He was right, so the others were wrong!"

"You're all wrong because my versions of logic and common sense tell me so."

"I just can't communicate with any of you."


Babel anyone?

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[masterblaster72 0]

Quote

have you read the book i sent you, windcatcher? i'm not trying to convince anyone. i'm the messenger, telling everyone the truth about the lie that all religions are, if you choose to remain ignorant of the mythological nature of your religion, that is your problem. the pope told you the truth when he said, "what profit hath that FABLE OF CHRIST brought us." do unto others as you would have done to you-Xtianity"s 'golden rule'. do what thou will, but harm no one-wicca's 'golden rule. i find it quite amusing that you call wiccans 'satanists and the basic idea behind both is IDENTICAL.


windcatcher, you said you would read the books i send you, does your word have no honor? send your address and i,ll send them. it is the myth of all myths. jesus crucifixion and resurection is a very COMMON theme in ALL ancient religions. i forget the 'scriptural' site that the bibleis truebecause it is the bible, but that very notion is ABSOLUTELY, TOTALLY ABSURD. why don't you look into it, failure to look proves mind-control, lovely lady.

Dude, do you really think she's going to read the books you send her? This is the same person telling us that satan goes around the world tempting people into doing bad things. She's going to equate your books with satan. She's not going to read them. Don't waste your postage.

What I would recommend to windcatcher is that she do some kind of volunteer work to show the world that she's about action and not just empty mantras like "my lord and saviour jesus..." Action is more convincing than words that mean absolutely nothing to others.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[hairyjuan 0]

you cannot find the answers to the Great Questions by looking outside yourself. the answers are within you. that.s why religion, of any brand is WRONG!

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[shaiziel 0]

I think even the christians could agree with this statement. Fascinating.

----------------------------------------
6.8% - Almost there!

[Rebecca 0]

Quote

you cannot find the answers to the Great Questions by looking outside yourself. the answers are within you. that.s why religion, of any brand is WRONG!

You've got it partly right, vitriolic one.

It's man's attempt at applying the concepts that religions were based on that is flawed.

The basic founding messages of all major religions can only be properly understood and applied after an acceptance and forgiveness of self which leads to the kind of self-love which allows you to "love your neighbor as yourself".

If you don't love yourself first, you will not be able to treat anyone any better, and all this "religion" will be just another load of crap someone's trying to shove down your throat.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[SpeedRacer 1]

Why does it seem that the loudest & angriest ranters & ravers seem to be on the atheist side?

There just seems to be a lot more Atheists screeching that we MUST NOT believe in Christianity than there are Christians attempting to convince athiests to believe.

Maybe the atheists should start going door-to-door like the Jehovah's Witnesses if they feel so strongly about it.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[hairyjuan 0]

believing in SUNjesus as a physical manifestion is idol worship, plain and simple.

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[windcatcher 0]

Quote

Quote

have you read the book i sent you, windcatcher? i'm not trying to convince anyone. i'm the messenger, telling everyone the truth about the lie that all religions are, if you choose to remain ignorant of the mythological nature of your religion, that is your problem. the pope told you the truth when he said, "what profit hath that FABLE OF CHRIST brought us." do unto others as you would have done to you-Xtianity"s 'golden rule'. do what thou will, but harm no one-wicca's 'golden rule. i find it quite amusing that you call wiccans 'satanists and the basic idea behind both is IDENTICAL.


windcatcher, you said you would read the books i send you, does your word have no honor? send your address and i,ll send them. it is the myth of all myths. jesus crucifixion and resurection is a very COMMON theme in ALL ancient religions. i forget the 'scriptural' site that the bibleis truebecause it is the bible, but that very notion is ABSOLUTELY, TOTALLY ABSURD. why don't you look into it, failure to look proves mind-control, lovely lady.

Dude, do you really think she's going to read the books you send her? This is the same person telling us that satan goes around the world tempting people into doing bad things. She's going to equate your books with satan. She's not going to read them. Don't waste your postage.

What I would recommend to windcatcher is that she do some kind of volunteer work to show the world that she's about action and not just empty mantras like "my lord and saviour jesus..." Action is more convincing than words that mean absolutely nothing to others.

Okay, I have already sent hairyjuan my address, waiting for the material. Yes, I will read it, but I doubt it will change my mind.
Masterblaster, it is amazing to me how people become so angry at Christians. I wish you knew me, but you don't and insist that I don't live out my faith--I'm just all talk.

The message of the Cross DOES seem foolish; but when you have faith and accept Christ, God confirms His truth in many, many ways.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[wmw999 2,517]

You spend an awful lot of time on this. It must be worth a lot to you.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)