Mike111 0 #101 November 4, 2005 Must admit that seems a pretty good idea - the border bit. Actually there was something else (you probs know about) that protecting the borders - Drugs - Sometown in texas-newlavuado or something like that where there are murders eveyrday and where cocaine is shipped into the USA on an hourly rate pretty much Just thought id add thatIs that the right name - new lavuado or soemthing? basically i just thought id add another benefit of troops on border - stop drug trafficking, and as an exmaple gave Nev Lavuado - but i didnt know the correct name for the > I forgot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #102 November 4, 2005 Are you drunk....cause I wish you could type since I don't know what the hell you just said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #103 November 4, 2005 >I rather break a moral code and stay alive . . . . That's the point. Torture doesn't work. It does not result in usable information. It does not 'uncover the truth.' So your choice is not torture someone and die, or torture someone and die. Which do you choose? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #104 November 4, 2005 lol ooops point - no i aint drunk. hang on Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #105 November 4, 2005 If it's appropriate, why was this Gulag kept secret? How do we know the CIA was not involved in the Kennedy assassination? . . . . . . . . . . . Because he's dead.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #106 November 4, 2005 Sorry do you mean "torture someone and die, or torture someone or die". I do not wish to appear arrogant or stubborn, but torture has given people information in the past - everyoen cracks EVENTUALLY. noone can last forever, some can last longer than others. Im not into inflicting pain at all, but sometimes, i think it is necessary to grit ones teeth and say well weve tried everything else - weve frozen accounts blah blah got info from spies and intelligence agencies - just talking to these masterminds in a ncei way or puttimh them in jail wouldn't do it EITHER. Youre more likely option is to scare them.Although some are prepared for death/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #107 November 4, 2005 I never supproted the assination of Kennedy, never have and never will.. Why kept secret - because th media would make a fuss and force the governent to stop it , so in the end they wouldn't get the info cos people would be going on about human rights etc etc. Like I said before, it CANT BE MORALLY JUSTIFIED, btu it CAN still be done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,588 #108 November 4, 2005 Quotetorture has given people information in the past And sometimes guessing has given people information. Intelligence is the most likely -- where were they when caught? What did they say willingly? Where is the most likely place? Who knows them that might be willing to talk about what they know willingly? If you ask them (no, no politely, but without torture) they might give you the answer. If you torture, you're doing the wrong thing. If you do it once, it can be from heat. But if you make it a practice (and it doesn't take much for it to become a practice), then you're not the kind of person I want protecting me or my son. And, well, you could paste your replies into a program that does spell-checking and then paste them back in Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #109 November 4, 2005 Hence why i said i do not support it for ordinary soldiers or on a regular basis. I did quite clearly say that. Personally i rather have someone looknig after me who would do what is necessary to protect us. and if they the terrorists are forcing it on us , then boy would I want it pushed back on them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #110 November 4, 2005 I love this thread !!! Reading this is very educational, thanks for starting it !!! We have Americans arguing that it is right for them to employ the tactics of those they despise. God I hope they never successfully run for office - these are not the people you want running the country. OOPS - forgot, these tactics are being employed by the current government... oh well America was a nice dream while it lasted"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #111 November 4, 2005 Very well put indeed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #112 November 4, 2005 Well, I believe Mike is from your mother country. Speaking of Mike:Quote I do not wish to appear arrogant or stubborn, but torture has given people information in the past - everyoen cracks EVENTUALLY. noone can last forever, some can last longer than others. Yes, everyone breaks and tells the interrogators WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR. Torturers don't stop until they get the info they are looking for. The victims of torture evenutally figure that out and tell them what they want to hear. Doesn't make it truthful or useful in the slightest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #113 November 4, 2005 QuoteWell, I believe Mike is from your mother country. I believe he's from yours too! Unless it was a virgin birth "Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #114 November 4, 2005 Your percption of the US is wrong - by other countries standards it is a very moral and upstanding country. Maybe a check into the Uk vs IRA side argument - they, the soldiers, actually let IRA groups murder other provisional groups - i saw the report and everyting - ok it was a documentary but proven people there at the time - they were watching while they killed each other. But oh shit "we have a duty" Yet that is from the UK. nicey nicey doesn;t always bloody work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #115 November 4, 2005 >but torture has given people information in the past - everyoen >cracks EVENTUALLY. Yes. And when they do, they will tell you whatever they can to make you stop. They will tell you the sky is green. They will tell you that 100,000 screaming arabs in little canoes are about to take over New York City. It works if you want to cause someone pain and make them say stuff. If you think it works to get good intelligence, you may have been watching too much Alias. Let's take an example. During the Salem witch trials, people were tortured until they admitted they were witches. They were then executed. Was that a good thing or a bad thing? Do you think that they got good information, and thus stopped a threat as serious to them as terrorism is to us? (witchcraft) Or did their fear make interrogators do something really stupid? A more recent example - at least one Abu Ghraib prisoner admitted to being Osama Bin Laden after being tortured for days. Think that helped us? That's not to say that no one ever confesses under torture. But the great majority of information we get is shit, and will do absolutely nothing - other than prevent us from finding out what's really happening, of course. Torturing prisoners for information hurts the US in more ways than one. A few articles on this issue: http://www.philosophersnet.com/cafe/archive_article.php?id=25&name=provocations http://www.cdi.org/friendlyversion/printversion.cfm?documentID=3143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #116 November 4, 2005 Let me get one thing very clear, my intention is not to want pain to be inflicted. Salm witchtrials - yes ive read about them. The difference is these terrorists are proven terrorist, a lto of the victims then were innocent. Yes of course it doesnt always give greta information but you may have overlooked one thing - they behead people , OUR PEOPLE. If I was leader, I would od my best to try and get things resolved peacefulyl and in a most humane way as possible, but if my people were being BEHEADED, yes BEHEADED, then maybe I would start to think otherwise. Well tell me then why most interrogation untis use it then? the KGB - no answer needed, MI5/6. Course they would use it. Yes it does hurt, when Its gets out. Thats what I was annoyed about - the paper didnt realise the harm ti would do to the US. It "might have been wrong" but causing more damage is ponitless. Maybe relaease it at a later date when times are less volatile. Edit - Im assumnig now, but if youve got me down as a sadistic cold hearted fucker, well I just thougth i would say politely of course, youre wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #117 November 4, 2005 QuoteThe difference is these terrorists are proven terrorist Really? I must have missed the trials. When was anyone in any of these prisons, the open ones or the covert ones, "proven" to be a terrorist? You make a big deal about beheading, as if you're more dead when beheaded then by being say, trampled by elephants. Dead is dead, the method doesn't much matter to the dead guy. QuoteWell tell me then why most interrogation untis use it then? Because they are ill informed, and human. They want revenge and they think they are doing the right thing. Thinking they are right doesn't make them right. QuoteIt "might have been wrong" but causing more damage is ponitless. Maybe relaease it at a later date when times are less volatile. So in addition to condoning torture, you also condone suppression of free speach and the press. You might want to look into moving to the middle east. They've got just the kind of gov'ts you're looking for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #118 November 4, 2005 QuoteSo that's what you would tell someone who is unsure if the US is systematically abusing arabs? No, but we should put into perspective that in the US, we have approximately 2.03 million people in prison. The average homicide rate in these prisons is 4 per 100,000 prisoners PER YEAR. That means 81 homicides are comitted in our normal prisons. Compare that to the 26 people killed in 3 years between Afghanistan and Iraqi prisons. Not that we have 2 million people in prison in Afghanistan and Iraq, or that the US regularly kills their domestic prisoners as a policy (non-death penalty anyway). I just don't think that there is evidence of a POLICY that encourages the violent abuse and murder of detainees. We'd probably see tons more deaths if that were the case. It would be interesting to see how much the abuse and deaths decreased AFTER the Abu Grhaib shit went down. I bet it's a lot less, not that it really matters to people who want to continue to bash the US. Also, someone always mentions that torture does not reveal any good info. While I'd agree that zapping testicles and shoving bamboo under the fingernails will get people to say anything to stop the pain, I DO think that sensory deprivation, intimidation, and use of drugs will get you some intel and I do not consider that to be torture. I'm sure people here will, though. As far as having covert prisons, I've already stated why I don't see it as a huge problem in this thread. I'd just hope that they reserve them for people that get caught pretty red-handed or are already wanted and valuable captures. Keeping an average Joe in those prisons is a waste of time and my tax dollars.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #119 November 4, 2005 QuoteAlso, someone always mentions that torture does not reveal any good info. While I'd agree that zapping testicles and shoving bamboo under the fingernails will get people to say anything to stop the pain, I DO think that sensory deprivation, intimidation, and use of drugs will get you some intel and I do not consider that to be torture Neither do I. But those things are going on in gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan, in the open. You don't think the tactics are harsher in the covert, hidden from scrutiny prisons? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #120 November 4, 2005 Absolute bullshit. WTF are you on about? Im not restricting free speech, but in war there is censorship - im saying release it when it will cause LESS DAMAGE. I AM FULLY OPEN TO FREE SPEECH, but sometimes tactfulness is required. no beheading someone is the same as shooting someone - what planet are you on???? Jesus. Middle east eh? Im glad youre not in govt, you'd invite the terrorists for tea and biscuits. If you read carefully, what I wrote then youll see the point. And are they guilty - give me a fucking break will you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #121 November 4, 2005 >The difference is these terrorists are proven terrorist, a lto of the >victims then were innocent. ?? Every report we've seen from Abu Ghraib, Gitmo etc reveal that most of the people there are innocent. Perhaps you recall we just released 500 prisoners from Abu Ghraib after holding them for years, because we could find absolutely nothing on them? >Yes of course it doesnt always give greta information but you may >have overlooked one thing - they behead people , OUR PEOPLE. And we rape their women and torture their children. THEIR CHILDREN. (see Taguba's report and the link below.) >If I was leader, I would od my best to try and get things resolved > peacefulyl and in a most humane way as possible, but if my people > were being BEHEADED, yes BEHEADED, then maybe I would start to > think otherwise. And if your children were being arrested, imprisoned and tortured? If it was your women who were being raped? What then? The cycle of "we can be more barbaric than them" leads to only one place. They can ALWAYS one-up us. >Edit - Im assumnig now, but if youve got me down as a sadistic >cold hearted fucker, well I just thougth i would say politely of course, > youre wrong. See, that's what worries me. Of course 'sadistic fuckers' want to torture people. But now normal people who should know better are defending it, and that's scary. http://www.sundayherald.com/43796 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #122 November 4, 2005 Ok whatever mate, Im a sadistic fucker. Rock on. (I did give £100 to the Pakistan Earthquake appeal) Course that makes me one you know!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #123 November 4, 2005 >Im a sadistic fucker. I just said you weren't! Did you even read . . . What the hell. Never mind. Have a good weekend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #124 November 4, 2005 my fault ,misread, Sorry. PM sent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #125 November 4, 2005 I have no sympathy for terrorists, but most of the people in these prisons ARE NOT terrorists. Otherwise why did we just release hundreds of them as a good will gesture to cellebrate the end of Ramadan? Because we don't mind releasing guilty terrorists? These are fucking people we're talking about. The vast majority of which didn't do jack shit except try to defend their home from an invading foreign force. To label them all as terrorists is naive and weakens the term terrorist to the point that it could apply to anyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites