Being Recruited to the Right! Help!

[karenmeal 0]

My brother is a born again Christian (thanks to his wife) and a Southern Baptist. His church recently got a new minister who has gotten my brother really excited about witnessing. My brother has good intentions about trying to "save me" but I'm an atheist and am not interested in hearing him quote the bible. Besides, I feel that I do not need to believe in a higher power to be a good, and ethical person.

Have any of you dealt with a family member or a close friend trying to push you into a religion?

I don't want to ruin our already shaky relationship, so I agreed to having bible discussions with him. I explained to him that I cannot have faith, I need proof. He is going to search the bible for historical proof and try to support it with secular historical texts. (If he can.) My job is to search other major world religions and find the same kind of so-called "evidence." Any help would be appreciated because hes flooding my answering machine and inbox with "proof."

Links to good websites.. Arguments you've used in the past.. Things you remember from a college religion class.. etc.

Or if you can't help me with what I am looking for.. how do I get him to quit worrying about me going to hell and leave me alone about religion?

I am looking for responses only from people outside of the Christian religion or Christians who will give objective responses (Basically, don't try to get me to convert, it ain't happenin'.)

-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[GTAVercetti 0]

Please refer to the first 50 pages of "I am a Christian...and proud of it."

The rest of the pages are just silly fluff...mostly.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[SudsyFist 0]

Role reversal. Ask him how he'd feel if you were constantly pushing atheism on him (in the same way that he is doing to you), and how it would impact your relationship.

[jakee 1,536]

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The rest of the pages are just silly fluff...mostly.

A-Hah!

So you do think the numbers are silly

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[GTAVercetti 0]

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The rest of the pages are just silly fluff...mostly.

A-Hah!

So you do think the numbers are silly

DAMN!!!

Found out!

Or am I? Could it be that I want you to THINK I think that the numbers are silly only to drive you away from using their inherent power?

Hmmmm? Hmmmm?

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Tell him you're a devoted Pastafarian and that he's going to Pasta hell for his heretical views about the One true God - the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Read up on this here: http://www.venganza.org/ ad here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Send him copies of sacred documents detailing the creation of the world such as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FSM_himself.jpg

Send him copies of the graphs proving how FSM'ism is a real force such as this one: http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.jpg

Then calm him down and explain how when you pushed FSM'ism on him he felt the same things you feel when he pushes Christianity onto you.

[ReBirth 0]

I'd avoid the whole topic with him. Tell him that you're not interested and that if he pushes it it will straing the relationship. If you start debating it with him it WILL strain the relationship.

[GTAVercetti 0]

That is actually probably the best advice.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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so I agreed to having bible discussions with him

This is a mistake. No amount of secular evidence will ever sway the religious away from their beliefs. All one needs to do is open one of the religious threads on here to see that.

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Or if you can't help me with what I am looking for.. how do I get him to quit worrying about me going to hell and leave me alone about religion?

I've seen some of your posts on DZ.COM and you've got a good head on your shoulders. Stand up to him telling him to respect you for who you are and to not have him judge you because of your differences. Tell him you don't need him to save you because well you've already been saved. You jump from airplanes right? Is that salvation?

I wish I could give you better advise, but the religious and secular world will never agree when it comes to the topic of religion.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Dougiefresh 0]

My uncle tried to recruit me into his cult. I think it was called "catholicism". He tried to explain to me that there is no way that animals could have ever evolved eyes, because without eyes they'd fall out of trees. Therefore, they had eyes from the start and ergo the world is only 6000 years old. Q.E.D.

I just stared at him with my mouth open, as I realized just how brainwashed he really was. This is a guy who was once as athiest as they come, having sworn off any possibility of a loving god after seeing untold horrors in Vietnam.

There IS no argument that will even register on your brother. Just play along and act convinced, and get him out of your house before he says something that makes your brain short-circuit and fry itself. If he lies awake at night worrying about your immortal soul, well, that's his perogative.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[karenmeal 0]

He won't accept that I don't want to talk about it. He is a stubborn guy, he is not the most rational person, and not entirely capable of objective thought.

So from his angle, I tell him to leave me alone about it and he thinks, I can't have my little sister going to hell, her eternal salvation is worth me making her angry. And he will keep going and going..

I have to go to school now.. so If I don't reply, I will be back checking in after 5:00.

-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[billvon 3,031]

> My job is to search other major world religions and find the same
>kind of so-called "evidence."

Try the creation angle. Christianity's creation myth is a composite of many earlier myths. Take these:

Egyptian - the earth rose out of water (which no doubt came from their experiences with the Nile flooding.) Then one day a dry hill emerged from the waters. The sun rose on it, and this was the first day.

Babylonian - the earth rose from the waters, much like the Genesis myth. The Galgamesh story then goes on to talk about a worldwide flood that one of the Gods brought out of anger; one man, Ut-Napishtim, was ordered to build a boat and stock it with all the animals he could find. He did, and the boat rode out the flood. It struck ground at the base of a mountain in the Middle East somewhere, and Ut-Napishtim (and his family, and all the animals) were saved.

Greek - in Greek mythology, Deucalion and Pyrra survived a flood by hopping in a boat and hiding in it for weeks until it came to rest against a mountain. The flood wat brought about by Neptune and Jupiter, who had become angry with man.

Indian - A terrible flood left only one survivor - a saint named Manu, who was saved by Vishnu in the form of a fish.

BTW it looks like all these Noah myths grew out of a real event - the flooding of the Black Sea when the Mediterranean broke through a land bridge and flooded a massive area. It must have seemed like the end of the world to the people living there.

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As a final question, ask him if animals or man were created first. Genesis 1 lists livestock first, then man. Genesis 2 lists man then livestock. This is likely because Genesis 1 and 2 were originally two (very similar) earlier myths that were combined.

[karenmeal 0]

One more thing before I leave...

I am not trying to sway his religious belief. He accepts that I am someone who needs proof. If I can show him that there is not enough proof in Christianity for me personally, then I am hoping that he will get exhausted and leave me alone.

Probably won't work.. but I've atleast got one meeting with him next week.

We've gone months without talking over stuff like this before because I refused to even listen to him or talk about it. If the only way I get to keep my brother in my life is to listen to him talk about religion and discuss it with him, well, I am willing to do that for my brother.

CYA,
-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Rebecca 0]

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Greek - in Greek mythology, Deucalion and Pyrra survived a flood by hopping in a boat and hiding in it for weeks until it came to rest against a mountain. The flood wat brought about by Neptune and Jupiter, who had become angry with man.

Psst: Poseidon and Zeus are the Greek names. They were originally angry with Prometheus for the whole fire debacle. He got the liver-eating vulture treatment, and man got Pandora and her box, which fucked things up so much they decided to start over. Hence the flood.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[mailin 0]

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He won't accept that I don't want to talk about it. He is a stubborn guy, he is not the most rational person, and not entirely capable of objective thought.

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We've gone months without talking over stuff like this before because I refused to even listen to him or talk about it. If the only way I get to keep my brother in my life is to listen to him talk about religion and discuss it with him, well, I am willing to do that for my brother.

Not to sound cold - but your relationship sounds very one sided. I'm currently going through the same thing with my family and have finally decided after 10+ long years that enough is enough - if they won't do for me, at least what I do for them, they're not worth my time.

Best of luck, but I agree with others, debating this will only strain an already lopsided relationship.


Jen

Arianna Frances

[SudsyFist 0]

Quote

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Greek - in Greek mythology, Deucalion and Pyrra survived a flood by hopping in a boat and hiding in it for weeks until it came to rest against a mountain. The flood wat brought about by Neptune and Jupiter, who had become angry with man.

Psst: Poseidon and Zeus are the Greek names. They were originally angry with Prometheus for the whole fire debacle. He got the liver-eating vulture treatment, and man got Pandora and her box, which fucked things up so much they decided to start over. Hence the flood.

*swoooooooooooooooooooooon*

[kallend 2,070]

Ask him why his church names its most important festival after a pagan goddess.

www.angelfire.com/ca6/sunnysweb/ostar.html

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,031]

>Poseidon and Zeus are the Greek names.

oops, you're right. So many creation myths, so little time . . .

[rehmwa 2]

1- I'm not sure what the thread title has to do with your issue, it's a religious thing, not right or left.

2 - These guys are always pretty pushy, maybe you have to decide just how much of a relationship you really want here. I love my brothers and sisters, but I'd never hang out with any of them if we met as strangers - nothing in common. No big deal. And the relationship is always shaky.

So you can say you love him and support him in anything he chooses in his life - even stuff you disagree with. And - (not but, 'and') he has to decide if he's willing to do the same for you. If not, you don't want to have anything but a 'Thankgiving and Christmas' polite get together each year type of relationship.

Edit: but the trick here is to respect his beliefs and not belittle them - even a little bit. And expect the same in return (my wife's family is pretty religious - if they eat at my house, I'll pause and let them pray at my table and stay quiet out of respect to THEM, not the religion itself - it is NOT necessary to turn every little thing into a fight). Even if you do disagree - like much of the postings above seem to think it is cool to mock and argue. It's not about whether you have the same beliefs, it's whether you are willing to respect each other, including that you disagree on some pretty fundamental things.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Rebecca 0]

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>Poseidon and Zeus are the Greek names.

oops, you're right. So many creation myths, so little time . . .

Aww yeah!!

I miss studying mythology...

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[wmw999 2,485]

Rehmwa is right. What you see as proof he won't. I know you want to have a good relationship with your brother where you just don't talk about this, but the new minister is leading him to think that the most loving thing he can do is convert you to his way of thinking. And the fact that he wants to convert you is proof that he loves you, in its own way.

The minister may end up leaving (hallelujah!), or your brother may lose some of his fervor. If you really really have to talk about it with him, set a time limit -- tell him you'll talk for 15 minutes, that you will promise not to resolve anything in that time, and that you'll listen to what he has to say. You don't even have to debate him point by point.

If you set a time limit, it might help. Yes, it's artificial, but it might be better than the alternative.

Then make some cookies. Cookies make a lot of things better
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Rebecca 0]

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Cookies make a lot of things better

Yes. Yes they do.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[skytripper 0]

My family is Anglican and my boyfriend's is LDS. We end up getting pressure from both sides - mainly because they love us and want to be reunited with us after our earthly deaths (their fear not mine).

His folks have been trying to convert me for almost 7 years. They're wonderful people and I respect and love them, but I won't budge because I've chosen an alternate route. I am more agnostic than anything else so we can go to church with his family or mine during the family visits with no worries and sometimes we don't go with little or no hassle.

We always have healthy debates and I have no problem pointing out the holes in the scriptures or where and when I have an ideological beef with their opinions or customs.

If you have a strong mind, you can keep your opinions and he can keep his while learning more about one another as humans. Plus, learning about the "scriptures" is quite helpful when you want to have a a truly informed position about why you think they're wrong.

You say you "need proof". Well, if you study the bible, you'll have plenty of opportunities to back up your perspective up with specific chapters and verses. Then you can play on a level field.

Just another opinion.

Life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving! ~ Patrick Dennis' Auntie Mame

[Shotgun 1]

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>Poseidon and Zeus are the Greek names.

oops, you're right. So many creation myths, so little time . . .

Wow, you did it again. Now I am going to have to revoke my opinion about you never admitting when you are wrong.

[billvon 3,031]

>Now I am going to have to revoke my opinion about you never admitting when you are wrong.

Well, I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken.