President Bush Fires Back Against Critics

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>you are calling John McCain a liar . . .

So that would be saying that someone who says that someone who says someone is a liar, is a liar, is a liar?

In any case, McCain is merely mistaken. If he later says "I never said that!" then he would be either a liar or a victim of a defective memory.

I agree with you Bill. But you and I are using a different defiition of a lie than Kallend. By his definition, McCain is a liar.

He IS a politician, and a Republican, so who would be surprised?

Ahh.. the Al Franken style of debate again?

So are you willing to go on record as stating McCain is a liar? A yes or no would do.

[billvon 2,991]

You know, one thing that seems interesting here is the dramatic shift in how the White House is approaching this. For years now their approach has been "we didn't screw up; everything is going great. They're welcoming us with open arms, we're turning the corner, mission accomplished, the insurgency is in its last throes!"

Lately their plan of attack has shifted. They are saying OK, maybe we did screw up, but everyone else screwed up more! They've gone on a blame offensive; sort of a Speaker's Corner approach to responsibility. Which would be entertaining if not for the thousands of US soldiers who have died, and the thousands who will die while democrats and republicans play political games and blame each other for everything from insurgent attacks to bird flu.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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You know, one thing that seems interesting here is the dramatic shift in how the White House is approaching this. For years now their approach has been "we didn't screw up; everything is going great. They're welcoming us with open arms, we're turning the corner, mission accomplished, the insurgency is in its last throes!"

Lately their plan of attack has shifted. They are saying OK, maybe we did screw up, but everyone else screwed up more! They've gone on a blame offensive; sort of a Speaker's Corner approach to responsibility. Which would be entertaining if not for the thousands of US soldiers who have died, and the thousands who will die while democrats and republicans play political games and blame each other for everything from insurgent attacks to bird flu.

I don't see it that way. The White House isn't saying "they screwed up more", they are tired of the unrelenting attacks by the hypocrits on the left who try to blame it all on Bush without accepting responsibility for their own part. I see many of the statements by the Kerry,Reid, Pelosi cabal as actually encouraging the war at the time. Now they want to run for cover and blame all of it on Bush. No money, no war, they voted to approve the money which makes them complicit.

I also disagree that nothing is being done because Reps. and Dems are blaming each other.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051116/D8DT7MJG3.html

[billvon 2,991]

>The White House isn't saying "they screwed up more" . . .

>they are tired of the unrelenting attacks by the hypocrits on the left who try
>to blame it all on Bush without accepting responsibility for their own part.

Without accepting responsibility? Just one example:

Edwards:
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I was wrong.

Almost three years ago we went into Iraq to remove what we were told -- and what many of us believed and argued -- was a threat to America. But in fact we now know that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction when our forces invaded Iraq in 2003. The intelligence was deeply flawed and, in some cases, manipulated to fit a political agenda.

It was a mistake to vote for this war in 2002. I take responsibility for that mistake.
------

>Now they want to run for cover and blame all of it on Bush.

And Bush, who was once pushing this war as the greatest thing since sliced bread, is now blaming it on _them_.

>No money, no war, they voted to approve the money which makes them
>complicit.

I would too. If the president decides to start a war, the stupidest thing you could do would be to underfund the troops. Soldiers die that way. And no matter what your politics, that's unacceptable.

[Gravitymaster 0]

They aren't aiming at the Dems who accept responsibility like Edwards. Only the hypocrits like Kerry, Reid, Pelosi and others who have not accepted the same responsibility as Edwards.

They used to be able to get away with this BS but the Internet is a wonderful time machine that allows us to go back and see what they said on the record at the time. I have more respect for those who opposed the war at the time and still do, than the hypocrits who try to hide and pretend like they were hoodwinked by Bush.

[rushmc 23]

Bill Clinton, in 1998 stated that SH was building WMD's

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

See, now you change your angle. I point out that the Dems were saying the same things about Iraq that Bush was saying. But instead of saying they all had bad intel (and that is another debate) and Bush did not "lie" you say

well............well..................ahh...................but the rest of them did not send troops into war

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ReBirth 0]

Maybe Bush should try taking SOME responsibility instead of trying to shift all of it to others. No matter who voted for what, Bush is the one who brought up the issue in the first place. No one in congress was chomping at the bit to invade Iraq until Bush pushed for it....along with the statement "if you're not with us you're against us".

[mnealtx 0]

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Maybe Bush should try taking SOME responsibility instead of trying to shift all of it to others. No matter who voted for what, Bush is the one who brought up the issue in the first place. No one in congress was chomping at the bit to invade Iraq until Bush pushed for it....along with the statement "if you're not with us you're against us".

And so we come full circle to "It's all Bush's fault!" again...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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And so we come full circle to "It's all Bush's fault!" again...

Okay, asnwer me this...Who made the final decision that Iraq needed to be invaded? Who made the final decision to send in the troops?

[kallend 2,026]

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See, now you change your angle. I point out that the Dems were saying the same things about Iraq that Bush was saying. But instead of saying they all had bad intel (and that is another debate) and Bush did not "lie" you say

well............well..................ahh...................but the rest of them did not send troops into war

Bush lied almost every time he opened his mouth on 2002-2003.

Congress does NOT get the same intel as the President.

Congress cannot exert pressure on the CIA like the President can.

Bush lied about WMDs.

Bush lied about Iraq and 9/11.

Bush lied about the deficit.

Bush lied about Social Security being a priority.

Bush lied about veterans' affairs.

Bush lied about lying about the war.

And YOU make excuses. Is he a relative of yours?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Maybe Bush should try taking SOME responsibility instead of trying to shift all of it to others.

And so we come full circle to "It's all Bush's fault!" again...

I guess we should all take the time to look up the definition of "some". I will give us five minute, then it is nap time.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[mnealtx 0]

No, it's just a repeat of NO... everyone screaming about 'it's all Bush's fault' whenever anyone mentioned the mayor or governor....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,026]

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>you are calling John McCain a liar . . .

So that would be saying that someone who says that someone who says someone is a liar, is a liar, is a liar?

In any case, McCain is merely mistaken. If he later says "I never said that!" then he would be either a liar or a victim of a defective memory.

I agree with you Bill. But you and I are using a different defiition of a lie than Kallend. By his definition, McCain is a liar.

He IS a politician, and a Republican, so who would be surprised?

Ahh.. the Al Franken style of debate again?

So are you willing to go on record as stating McCain is a liar? A yes or no would do.

Why do you think he isn't a liar?

Eisenhower lied to Congress
Kennedy lied
Johnson lied big time
Nixon lied big time and lied about lying.
Ford slept
Carter lied
Reagan lied big time and then had memory lapses when put under oath
GHWB lied
Clinton lied
What makes you think W didn't lie when his statements turned out to be false so often, on so many different topics from the war to the economy? Do you really believe is is a total bumbling incompetent, which is the other explanation. Maybe that's what McCain believes sincerely.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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No, it's just a repeat of NO... everyone screaming about 'it's all Bush's fault' whenever anyone mentioned the mayor or governor....

Except for the fact that ReBirth said some, not all, it almost makes....ummm... no sense in context. But, hey, at least you got your anti-slogan downpat. 2 bonus points and a cookie

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Wopelao 0]

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So are you willing to go on record as stating McCain is a liar? A yes or no would do.

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Why do you think he isn't a liar?

Eisenhower lied to Congress
Kennedy lied
Johnson lied big time
Nixon lied big time and lied about lying.
Ford slept
Carter lied
Reagan lied big time and then had memory lapses when put under oath
GHWB lied
Clinton lied
What makes you think W didn't lie when his statements turned out to be false so often, on so many different topics from the war to the economy? Do you really believe is is a total bumbling incompetent, which is the other explanation. Maybe that's what McCain believes sincerely.

And you hope a "professor" would understand a simple question. This response is more like a politician would make.

[Gravitymaster 0]

And you hope a "professor" would understand a simple question. This response is more like a politician would make.

[kallend 2,026]

I don't know enough about McCain to judge whether he was lying about Bush, or whether he genuinely believes Bush to be a bumbling incompetent incapable of telling truth from falsehood. Either explanation fits the facts.


Personally I believe that even bumbling incompetents get things right some of the time, which suggests the "liar" explanation for "W" is most probable. Maybe McCain thinks the "bumbling incompetent" explantion is correct.

The fact is that "W" and his cabinet have made an enormous number of statements, on a variety of topics, that later turned out to be false. Then they turned around and denied making those statements at all. What do you call that behavior?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Except for the fact that ReBirth said some, not all, it almost makes....ummm... no sense in context. But, hey, at least you got your anti-slogan downpat. 2 bonus points and a cookie

Admittedly, there at least is SOME mention of Congress having some responsibility... and as I recall, ReBirth did mention responsibility of the mayor/governor over Katrina.

My apologies, ReBirth... I didn't specify that I was speaking in a general sense and not to you, specifically...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,026]

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And you hope a "professor" would understand a simple question. This response is more like a politician would make.

Apparently, to him Bush being a liar isn't so bad since he considers all politicians liars.

[rehmwa 2]

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>You had better go find all of thier quotes.

I've seen them.

Let's take another example. I'm in the front of an Otter. The pilot says something to me and points at the EGT gauge. I turn and say "Engine failure! Bail out! Bail out!" You hear me and jump from the plane, which is just passing 1500 feet.

On the ground, you get busted for opening below 2000 feet. "But he said bail out!" you claim. I reply "Well, it's true I did say bail out, but I didn't say you had to. And the engine was running a little hot. The pilot agrees it _might_ have failed, but it turned out there was no imminent threat of failure. But YOU jumped."

Should you be grounded?

I don't know, but since the plane didn't crash, Kallend now thinks you're a liar - or totally incompetent.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AlexCrowley 0]

I respect McCain a lot, however I did hear him misrepresent the truth on an NPR interview back in 2003 regarding weapons inspectors being kicked out of Iraq - which the interviewer pushed the point on and McCain claimed ignorance.

So either he wasnt fully informed or like most people gets his information from the mainstream press.

For some reason there's this entire concept on this forum that all politicians are demi-gods who are omniscient in all things rather than being as fallible and human as the rest of us.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[kallend 2,026]

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>You had better go find all of thier quotes.

I've seen them.

Let's take another example. I'm in the front of an Otter. The pilot says something to me and points at the EGT gauge. I turn and say "Engine failure! Bail out! Bail out!" You hear me and jump from the plane, which is just passing 1500 feet.

On the ground, you get busted for opening below 2000 feet. "But he said bail out!" you claim. I reply "Well, it's true I did say bail out, but I didn't say you had to. And the engine was running a little hot. The pilot agrees it _might_ have failed, but it turned out there was no imminent threat of failure. But YOU jumped."

Should you be grounded?

I don't know, but since the plane didn't crash, Kallend now thinks you're a liar - or totally incompetent.

IF that happened, AND Bill claimed not to have made a statement that we all heard him make, THEN those would be reasonable conclusions.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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IF that happened, AND Bill claimed not to have made a statement that we all heard him make, THEN those would be reasonable conclusions.

IMO - I think your position has modified over time. A year ago, the IF/AND/THEN didn't exist.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GTAVercetti 0]

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IF that happened, AND Bill claimed not to have made a statement that we all heard him make, THEN those would be reasonable conclusions.

IMO - I think your position has modified over time. A year ago, the IF/AND/THEN didn't exist.

Not defending kallend's stance, but where does this idea that everyone has to have the same ideas day in and day out? It seems we never want anyone to change...ever.

I certainly know that I thought different about varying topics a year ago. new info, new perspectives, new ideas have all changed my view.

We really need to get out of the idea that changing your opinion is a bad thing. It is not always true. Its when you change RAPIDLY back and forth that a problem exists.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.