Radical Islam Opinion

[SudsyFist 0]

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You mean this one?

No, but this one might be more along the lines of that about which I was thinking.

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I understand you're playing devil's advocate, Suds... and yes, the violence can beget more violence, but I still feel that after years of deliberate suicide bombings targeted against civilians, that the Palestinians will have to rein them in before anyone will take them seriously.

As much as we'd all like to see this happen, it just won't. Why? Trying walking into a bar in, say, Waco and announcing that the rest of the world isn't going to look favourably upon the U.S. until it stops its imperialistic bullying. One of humanity's greatest weaknesses: we're right and they're wrong. There just isn't enough humility to go around.

[Michele 1]

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I call bullshit on this one. You need to read up on the history of Zionism and the Jews struggle to create a national home. It started waaaay before the holocaust. The holocaust just helped accelerate it.

Well.

See, now.

You're welcome to call bullshit as much as you'd like on my education and opinion. Where you're incorrect is that I am not as well read as you'd like me to be. I have done my homework, I understand the concepts of Zion and the Diaspora, I've known the history of the jews. I am pretty clear about the last century's actions and promises made; I am also clear that there are far more interpolitical aspects to this story than the simple "the Palestinians were there first so it's theirs" argument.

I am equally clear that there are many people on this board who believe that the jews, as a whole, are people who should be anihilated and wiped from the face of the earth (as in let the state of Israel disappear). I am also clear that there is precious little I can say, sitting behind my keyboard, to educate and to inform those that their hatred for jews is something which is not new; not original to them; and is clearly reflected in the Imam's statement at the beginning of the thread (at least he has a bit of history under his belt, torqued as it may be...). And it's fascinating and sad for me to sit here and see the same things the Imam said come from the mouths (er, keyboards) of some posters here.

What is interesting, in a clinical sort of way, is that the Imam is being agreed with...and how sad that is. How terribly sad and horrific.

So no, Beowulf, I disagree with your opinion of bullshit. I know whereof I speak; I know of pogroms, of exiles, of murders uncountable. I know of Diaspora, of hatred, of more (far more) than 6,000,000 people (men, women and children killed in a matter of 6ish years). I've done the reading; I've done the research. I've done the thinking...

If we have a different opinion, so be it. Life will, at least for you and I, continue.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Michele 1]

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LOL Michele there is many of us who have pointed out why we don’t agree or support Israel, but I guess people decide to see what they want.

Oh, Darius, I see those posts, and don't discount them. I just have a different opinion and far different life experiences than some, it would seem. That's all right, isn't it? To have a different opinion? Or should I not think for myself? Research for myself? Learn about things, process that information and come to my own conclusions for myself? Why is that a bad thing? Because I don't agree with you?

Reminds me of my father. He's a liberal Democrat (similar to BV but older). Smart as a whip. Brilliant person, very much loved and respected by me. But my brother and I turned out to be reublican - me more liberal than my brother. My father was bemoaning that fact one day a few years ago...as in "where did I go wrong? Where, someone tell me where..." when I reminded him that he taught my brother and I to think for ourselves, to do our homework; to not follow the crowd simply because it was in motion; to consider all aspects of things, and make up our own minds about things. And so we did...and came to different conclusions than Dad. It didn't mean he was wrong; it simply meant he did a damned fine job as a father.

It's the same here. I can come to a different conclusion without someone thinking that I'm stupid or misled or... whatever other term you want to use for it. Could it be that I've seen everything that people have pointed out and still have a different, and just as valid, opinion than someone? If not, why not?

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If you ever want to know who is right or get a better idea of the conditions the Palestinians are forced to live in just google it. You can read accounts from Christians and Jews who have posted the diaries on line.
They treat the Palestinians like dogs odd how a race who seem to bring up their unjust treatment that occurred more then 50 years ago has no problem doing it to others.

I have...and it hurts me to read that. The same way it hurts me to read about the bombings in Israel. The same way it hurts me to read of a 9 year old being a suicide bomber. It saddens me to read the injustice man perpetrates on man, in any circumstance.

I've also seen the heads of people who were blown up in suicide bombings. I've seen the bits of flesh being picked up off the sidewalks and wiped off the walls of cafes. I've seen the carnage...and it hurts me to see that.

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IMOP If the Israelis were allowed to live in peace that would be a huge injustice they do not deserve it until they change there ways.

Just wondering why you think it's only the Israelis who should "change their ways" before the other will stop?

In my life, if I want a change, I am the instigator of that change. It would do me no good to sit down and whine about how thus-and-such should be changed, and let a government/family/neighbor/stranger make that change. To make the statement "I'll change when circumstances change" prevents circumstances from ever changing.

Ghandi said it best. "Be the change you want to see in the world." When more people really, internally, inherently, emotionally understand that, there will be the opportunity for change in so many ways...but until people realize that the change needs to start with them, they will continue to follow the crowd - simply because it is already in motion, whether or not it is true for them.

How fascinating for me to read through this thread and hear the Imam's positions articulated here...how sad, and how fascinating.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Darius11 12]

Every one is entitled to their own opinion, and should do there own research. I was pointing out the Only reasoning you stated that you saw was “ This is my Holy land”. I wanted to point out that you must have missed many posts that had a lot more reasons then this is my holy land.

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Just wondering why you think it's only the Israelis who should "change their ways" before the other will stop?

Simple if you come and take over my house with force why should I compromise with you. You have no right in my house. The right thing would be for you to get the hell out and apologize not for me to give you a room for your self.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rehmwa 2]

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There just isn't enough humility to go around.

or donuts

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,991]

>Simple if you come and take over my house with force why should
>I compromise with you.

Because she (or her parents) once owned the house that _you_ took over and now call your own.

There are a lot of sides to this argument, but one thing it is not is simple. It will take compromise to reach a solution that ends the violence, if any such solution exists at all.

[rehmwa 2]

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Ghandi said it best. "Be the change you want to see in the world." When more people really, internally, inherently, emotionally understand that, there will be the opportunity for change in so many ways...but until people realize that the change needs to start with them, they will continue to follow the crowd - simply because it is already in motion, whether or not it is true for them.

It's always the other guy who has to take the first step is what he's saying - and that we can't wait for the other guy before we take our first step. But in that area of the world, if either side takes the 'first' step, the other side won't reciprocate, they'll just demand they take a few more steps. Look at Darius' last post for proof. And not to just pick on D, but you see the same on the other side of the argument too.

Eventually one side or the other will cross the line so far that the rest of the world separates them. We can hope diplomacy is the tool, but this is too personal on both sides and it will likely be military. Hope not.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SudsyFist 0]

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Simple if you come and take over my house with force why should I compromise with you.

Because they are now occupying your house.

It takes two,
It takes two,
Me and you...

EDIT: Screw you, Bill.

[pajarito 0]

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This is as simple as I can put it, Israel did not exists 50 years ago the land was occupied by Palestinian (not just Muslim Palestinians but Christians as well), With our support Israel was able to have settlements and when they had the military power again thanks to us they decided to take more and more land.

Problem is....it's just not that simple.

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A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.

The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises:
1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land;
2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people;
3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and
4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.

Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the Land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.

The Crusaders massacred many Jews during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century — years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement — more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.1 The 78 years of nation-building, beginning in 1870, culminated in the reestablishment of the Jewish State.

Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel's admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel's people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence.

Jews claim to Israel

Also,

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No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine.

Palestine has never been a state

[Darius11 12]

The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises:

1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 1st they kicked out the Palestinians.

2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people;


I don’t think they had the Palestinians interest in mind do you?

3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and
How can you have a defensive war when you are defending a land that you just kicked its citizens out of?

4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.

According to whos god? You see Islam has no problem with Jews or Christians we believe in Moses and Jesus were not the one saying we and only we are the chosen ones.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[pajarito 0]

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How can you have a defensive war when you are defending a land that you just kicked its citizens out of?

Citizens of what?

[beowulf 1]

You might want to check out this book "One Palestine Complete" by Tom Segev It gives a very interesting view on the history of Palestine from 1917 to 1948.

[Darius11 12]

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How can you have a defensive war when you are defending a land that you just kicked its citizens out of?

Citizens of what?

Palestine.

Yes the Palestinians lived on the land that is now occupied by Israel.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[pajarito 0]

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How can you have a defensive war when you are defending a land that you just kicked its citizens out of?

Citizens of what?

Palestine.

Yes the Palestinians lived on the land that is now occupied by Israel.

This is also interesting:

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Palestinian claims to be related to the Canaanites are a recent phenomenon and contrary to historical evidence. The Canaanites disappeared from the face of the earth three millennia ago, and no one knows if any of their descendants survived or, if they did, who they would be.

Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia, said the Palestinians' ancestors had only been in the area for 1,000 years.9 Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews. In testimony before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, for example, they claimed a connection to Palestine of more than 1,000 years, dating back no further than the conquest of Muhammad's followers in the 7th century.10 And that claim is also dubious. Over the last 2,000 years, there have been massive invasions that killed off most of the local people (e.g., the Crusades), migrations, the plague, and other manmade or natural disasters. The entire local population was replaced many times over. During the British mandate alone, more than 100,000 Arabs emigrated from neighboring countries and are today considered Palestinians.

By contrast, no serious historian questions the more than 3,000-year-old Jewish connection to the Land of Israel, or the modern Jewish people's relation to the ancient Hebrews.

MYTH: “The Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites and were in Palestine long before the Jews.”

[beowulf 1]

I fail to see how that bolsters their claim to Isreal. Just be because the were there so many years ago doesn't mean it should always be theirs. Just because it says it is theirs in one of their books doesn't help either.

Their claim is very weak.

[Michele 1]

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I fail to see how that bolsters their claim to Isreal. Just be because the were there so many years ago doesn't mean it should always be theirs. Just because it says it is theirs in one of their books doesn't help either.

Their claim is very weak.

How is the Palestinians' claim any stronger?

And Rehmwa, I know what D was pointing out. I was pointing out that when one takes responsibility to make the change, the change can be made...but if one waits until someone else makes the change, the change will never be made.

For example, the Israelis opened up the Gaza strip - evicted it's own citizens and transplanted them earlier this year...but that hasn't done anything at all for peace in the region...there are still bombings, still massive unrest...and it's sad. But the opportunity is there. I'd like to see it taken advantage of, in the proper way. But I don't know that it will. I can only hope.

I agree - if they can't do it themselves, then the world will do it for them. And what a pity that will be.

Again, I find it sad, horrific, and fascinating that there are some on these boards agreeing with the Imam the OP linked. I wonder why. If the nouns were changed, would they still agree? Or is it such a cultural hatred of the jews that no matter what the jews will be hated, feared, resented, and persecuted...as it's been for at least the last 3,000 years.

I'd also say that according to what I've read and heard, not just here but all over the 'net and in speaking with folks from all backgrounds, the Holocaust can indeed happen again. Sad and sad and sad.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[beowulf 1]

The government for that area should have been created on the premise of equal representation by the different people living there. It isn't that way. I don't really side with either group. The Palestinians would get more with diplomacy then terrorism, the Israelis were wrong to begin with.

[pajarito 0]

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I fail to see how that bolsters their claim to Isreal. Just be because the were there so many years ago doesn't mean it should always be theirs. Just because it says it is theirs in one of their books doesn't help either.

Their claim is very weak.

They've always been there and they were there before the Palestinians. That's the point.

[AlexCrowley 0]

If only they had flags.

It was due to the cunning use of flags that the British Empire was able to expand so rapidly, considering there were only 14 Britons at the time.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[pajarito 0]

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If only they had flags.

It was due to the cunning use of flags that the British Empire was able to expand so rapidly, considering there were only 14 Britons at the time.

Flags would be good.

[beowulf 1]

They were a minority and the Arabs were the majority. While the Ottoman Turks held that territory. Then the British pushed out the Turks during WWI. During the British mandate Jews were allowed to immigrate to Palestine with very little restraint. There was a very big push by the Zion commission to bring as many Jews to that area in order to take over and make Palestine the Jewish national home. The Arabs complained to British about this and the British denied that that was happening.

Just because there were Jews living there doesn't mean that they were in control and didn't give them the right to take over like they did.

[pajarito 0]

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They were a minority and the Arabs were the majority. While the Ottoman Turks held that territory. Then the British pushed out the Turks during WWI. During the British mandate Jews were allowed to immigrate to Palestine with very little restraint. There was a very big push by the Zion commission to bring as many Jews to that area in order to take over and make Palestine the Jewish national home. The Arabs complained to British about this and the British denied that that was happening.

Just because there were Jews living there doesn't mean that they were in control and didn't give them the right to take over like they did.

There has never been an independent Arab or Palestinian state in Palestine.

[beowulf 1]

Right but that doesn't mean it was ok to setup such a one sided Gov. that only favored the Jews.

[Gawain 0]

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There just isn't enough humility to go around.

or donuts

or coffee

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[waltappel 1]

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The Anus: I've never thought of the anus as an ethnic group. Is this a typo?

Not anus as in rectal. Anu as in the tribe; I mayn't have pluralized it properly, thus the confusion.

I'm clear that you don't see yourself as an anti-semite. I'm clear that you see yourself as anti-whiner. But I'd suggest you hang out with some jews; you'll find they are far less "whiney" than you believe...and a tad more dignified about things than you perceive.

Ciels-
Michele

I've hung out with a few Jews and realize that they come in all flavors.

One thing I've never figured out though is why many Jews wave their Jewishness like a flag. I personally don't give a flying fuck if someone is Jewish or not.

edited to add:
I find your love for cats far more interesting than whatever your religion or ethnicity is. Cats are cool. So are people who like cats or just like animals in general.

Walt