Phosphorous in Fallujah (video)

[ViperPilot 0]

Yes and no. Depends on the situation. If you've got a platoon in the fight for their lives, those guys are certainly not going to wait and ask if they should use a grenade or not. If WP was used in a defensive situation as a last ditch, then they wouldn't ask. It's very situational dependent.

[Enrique 0]

Quote

Yes and no. Depends on the situation. If

Quote

you've got a platoon in the fight for their lives, those guys are certainly not going to wait and ask if they should use a grenade or not. If WP was used in a defensive situation as a last ditch, then they wouldn't ask. It's very situational dependent.

Agreed, but I don't think that the claims made by the media refer to a "last ditch" to save their own life, but rather the deliberate use of WP as a weapon.

[ViperPilot 0]

Quote

17 soldiers were removed from duty for abusing or killing inmates.

Well first of all, those guys are idiots. Second of all, how many of those inmates were 100% legitimately innocent people? I don't know, but there's a decent chance that a majority of them did something real nice to get there in the first place and on that note, I don't care if they get kicked around a bit to give some info. And how many inmate did these soldiers kill? Was it in self defense? Just would like a few more details, that's all.

Quote

At least three; I listed em a while back.

Well if that's true, then that's 3 complete idiots, but hardly the vast number that rebirth seemed to think there was.

Regarding the conversation...

Neither Rummy or the Gen are saying torture is ok. Rummy gives the politican shoe clerk reply of "report it, but don't get involved" where as the Gen gives the real man w/ a "fuck politics" attitude reply of "stop that shit where it stands!" No surprise there.

[ViperPilot 0]

Well claims made by the media involving war are wrong about 99.9% of the time. But if the guys on the ground were directly launching WP munitions into people, I'd like to know the reasoning and info surrounding the specific situation. Bet there's a lot of info the media so nicely twisted or just left out.

[ReBirth 0]

No problem...just so we're clear, you're one of those defending the torturing fuckers on our side. You don't see a problem with Pakistanis twisting arms of some people, but if pakistanis start twisting the arms of Americans, then it's bad.

US soldiers aren't innocent people. They're active combatants. So it's ok for the enemy to torture them for info? I don't think it is. You are the one justifying when torture is ok.

[Enrique 0]

I agree with you 99.999% Most of the time the media will twist things a bit to hook the public, just like some of the time the media is used by the government for other purposes such as getting their own version of things out there, or to distract the public from the truth, or to put the blame on someone else.

All that I am saying is that there are no saints in this situation. Not Iraq, not the USofA. I am sure that there is an agenda that is hidden from me and you (unless you have the security clearance to know something other than the regular public).

[ReBirth 0]

Quote

I don't know, but there's a decent chance that a majority of them did something real nice to get there in the first place

yeah..like defending their homeland from foreign invaders. They deserve torture!!!!

You asked for examples of people posting in favor of torture, and you post in favor of it yourself. Unreal.

I see no difference between those who support torture and those who support terrorism. They all support evil deeds commited against other humans. I don't make a distinction based on the geography of birth as to whether an action is good or bad, I judge the action.

[highfly 0]

Quote

Quote

What is the story that goes with this video?

Derek

It doesn't come with a story, aside from the voice recording that you hear on the back of the tape. It seems like an interview with some military official.

That section of video comes from this bit of film

http://ts.searching.com/directory.asp?mode=torrentdetails&id=470296&query=Fallujah

I f you want to downlaod it take the top torrent.
I watched this the other night.
I was appalled to see the choppers ejecting all that WP on the village.
There is no way they can say it was for illumination.
It was used for killing people.

If it wasnt , why would it be shot directly onto the village like it was? If it wasnt used as a Weopan to kill and maim where were the ground force at the time?

I guess they were sat right back on the sidelines waiting to go in and finish off the "insurgents"...

www.myspace.com/durtymac

[billvon 3,077]

> I don't care if they get kicked around a bit . . .

Make that four people who are OK with torture.

>but hardly the vast number that rebirth seemed to think there was.

If many are like you, then he's got a good point.

>Neither Rummy or the Gen are saying torture is ok.

From Newsweek:

". . .As a means of pre-empting a repeat of 9/11, Bush, along with Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and Attorney General John Ashcroft, signed off on a secret system of detention and interrogation that opened the door to such methods. It was an approach that they adopted to sidestep the historical safeguards of the Geneva Conventions, which protect the rights of detainees and prisoners of war. In doing so, they overrode the objections of Secretary of State Colin Powell and America's top military lawyers—and they left underlings to sweat the details of what actually happened to prisoners in these lawless places."

[ViperPilot 0]

Uh, no. I don't mind the Pakistanis twisting the arms of people like Zarqawi or Bin Laden (read, twisting arms does not mean hollowing out knee caps and pouring acid in). I do not condone the torturing to near death of a common soldier, terrorist or not. I'm talking about guys who know a lot, i.e. Zarqawi...sorry, but people like him gave up his rights long ago.

[highfly 0]

Quote

(read, twisting arms does not mean hollowing out knee caps and pouring acid in)..

Is that what they do?


Cool

www.myspace.com/durtymac

[valcore 0]

The people in that Video don't look like Iraqies to me.....



"Get over It it's War"

The most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I'm from the government and I'm here to help’. ~Ronald Reagan

30,000,000 legal firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

[rickjump1 0]

Quote

No problem...just so we're clear, you're one of those defending the torturing fuckers on our side. You don't see a problem with Pakistanis twisting arms of some people, but if pakistanis start twisting the arms of Americans, then it's bad.

US soldiers aren't innocent people. They're active combatants. So it's ok for the enemy to torture them for info? I don't think it is. You are the one justifying when torture is ok.

It's a little different for our guys. They fight to the death because they know if they are captured, they will loose their heads among other things. In contrast, the bad guys can simply raise their hands and it's over. What's the fuss over twisting arms? He didn't say breaking arms. Hell, they twisted my arms during escape and evasion training. If everything was on a college hazing level (my guess some of it is), people would still be screaming about American atrocities toward these pieces of shit.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

No problem...just so we're clear, you're one of those defending the torturing fuckers on our side. You don't see a problem with Pakistanis twisting arms of some people, but if pakistanis start twisting the arms of Americans, then it's bad.

US soldiers aren't innocent people. They're active combatants. So it's ok for the enemy to torture them for info? I don't think it is. You are the one justifying when torture is ok.

It's a little different for our guys. They fight to the death because they know if they are captured, they will loose their heads among other things. In contrast, the bad guys can simply raise their hands and it's over. What's the fuss over twisting arms? He didn't say breaking arms. Hell, they twisted my arms during escape and evasion training. If everything was on a college hazing level (my guess some of it is), people would still be screaming about American atrocities toward these pieces of shit.

But you fail to understand you are talking about a society that thinks spanking is child abuse and simply touching someone is assault.

[billvon 3,077]

> In contrast, the bad guys can simply raise their hands and it's over.

Except for the people we torture to death.

>What's the fuss over twisting arms? He didn't say breaking arms.

Cause that's what's really happening. Torture, murder, rape, you name it. But in our defense we didn't actually cut anyone's head off yet.

[ReBirth 0]

I took twisting arms to be a metaphor for hooking electrodes up to people's genitals. I haven't actually heard about any specific instances of the former, but the latter has been documented by our own gov't.

I don't give a shit about college hazing. I care that our vice president has been spending inoridinate amounts of time lobbying to keep torture by agents of out gov't from being criminalized. That's an atrocity in and of itself.

And I'm of the opinion that when the CIA keeps classified prisons in eastern european countries and the vp lobbies to keep it legal for the CIA to torture people, that there's a pretty good chance a little more is going on than literal arm twisting. Am I one of the few that can add one to one and get two?

I'm sorry that I don't consider humans who don't happen to be Americans to be less human than humans that are Americans. I thought this country was based on basic human rights that are inalienable. Not basic American rights...basic human rights. They apply to everyone, or you aren't honoring the foundation of our nation's existence.

[Trent 0]

Quote

The people in that Video don't look like Iraqies to me.....

Oh no, they can't be Iraqis... because all Iraqis are innocent victims, and in this video there were quite a few dudes wearing flak or ammo vests. Someone else must have killed them since US soldiers only kill innocent civilians. Right?

[/Sarcasm... for future Googlers.]

Oh, hello again!

[ViperPilot 0]

"getting kicked around a bit" does not mean torture. It's not torture to slap some shitbag around. Do you consider a little roughing around, a jab here and there torture? I don't think so. If that's what you do think, then by your definition everyone who's gotten in a fist fight, a bar fight, etc. has tortured someone. Give me a break.

Oh yes, Newsweek, the all-knowing, always correct 7th wonder of the world!

[Guest]

Willy Pete is a hotly (heh) debated topic.

In SEA, it was used for signaling, because it generates huge amounts of pure white smoke.

However, because it burns really hot, it can be used against soft targets (e.g., buildings, people).

The reason it's debated is because White Phosphorus is a chemical, so that technically makes munitions that contain Willy Pete "chemical weapons", even though it is more properly classed as an incendiary.

And yes, WP burns are nasty.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Botellines 0]

Quote

Do you always base your thoughts from video found on the internet that cites no source?

Why do you hate Americans so badly?

I spent a year there, and didnt once target any innocent civilians. In fact we saved quite a few lives. But, I understand that doesnt feed your hate. Maybe get your story straight. The vast majority of people over there are doing the right thing.

I think the U.S government has already admitted that they use White Phosporous, so the source of this video is not that important anymore.
You may not believe me, but i don´t hate the U.S. Being an European i am not fed with the nationalistic propaganda you are fed on a daily basis, so i look at the U.S with another eyes. If you take away blind patriotism, you will be able to judge the actions for what they are, not for who commits them. There is a constant double standards and "do what i say not what i do" going on in your country that it is amazing there is so many people that don´see it.
Kudos to you for saving lives, and i am sure most of the U.S army are decent people that are trying to do their best. I am sure as well that most of the Irakis are innocent decent people but that doesn´t stop the U.S army from increasing everyday the number of "collateral damage" because the few bad apples there is in Irak. The U.S has also bad apples, but somehow their bad apples are worst than your bad apples. Here we have again another case of blind patriotism and double standards.

[mr2mk1g 10]

It's becoming painful watching people run around like a bunch tards on this subject whacking themselves in the face with their ice-cream encrusted fingers.

The reason some people complain that WP is a chemical weapon is that when WP particles are dispersed in the air they form phosphoric acid which is then lands on or is inhaled by bods on the ground who suffer from chemical burns to their lungs just as if they'd inhaled mustard gas or any of the other nasties out there which we all abhor.

Now that is not the primary mechanism of injury or death but it will happen. The primary mechanism of injury is by causing serious burns as WP burns very hot and cannot be extinguished except by starving it of oxygen.

This means if you get a bit on your shoulder it will burn right through the skin, the shoulder bone, your lung, your kidneys, your intestines, then your hip bones and then out of your arse.

Sounds nasty but as it's a thermic reaction causing the injury it's not illegal - just nasty and nasty shit happens in war.

The illegal part comes if people are being subjected to chemical burns. WP can do that if you fire it at people. The PENTAGON has said US troops have fired it at people. Not as a marker. Not as illumination. As a weapon.

The Pentagon said US forces fired WP at insurgents as a weapon. Dispute that if you like, but you'll end up arguing with officials at the Pentagon about what they say their forces did... and once more you'll look like a tard.

Now is WP an illegal chemical weapon when fired at people? I don't know. I can see that it will cause chemical burns when fired at people... but they're probably not going to care that much because they're also on fire. I don't know if that means the chemical burns don't really matter - I can see why some would say so.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Another reason people are getting upset about US use of WP is that in 1995 the Pentagon produced a report entitled: "POSSIBLE USE OF PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS BY IRAQ".

I can understand that people will be somewhat upset that the Pentagon now says that US forces have also used WP. 10 years ago the Pentagon says that WP is a "chemical weapon" and condemn Saddam for its use. Now they say WP is not a "chemical weapon" and that the US should be applauded for its use.

I can understand some people's confusion on this point. I can understand why they want some answers. I can understand why some might be a little mad at the Pentagon et al about this flip-flop.

[rickjump1 0]

Quote

> In contrast, the bad guys can simply raise their hands and it's over.

Except for the people we torture to death.


>What's the fuss over twisting arms? He didn't say breaking arms.

Cause that's what's really happening. Torture, murder, rape, you name it. But in our defense we didn't actually cut anyone's head off yet.

I agree. Real torture, murder, rape, should be out, but quick and aggressive interrogation of prisoners must take place if our guys are to stay on top of the tactical situation.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[SudsyFist 0]

Quote

"getting kicked around a bit" does not mean torture. It's not torture to slap some shitbag around. Do you consider a little roughing around, a jab here and there torture? I don't think so.

I don't think it matters much how you define the term. The term has been defined for you, and that's what counts.

Whether you think it's acceptable is another matter. Do you think such behavior is acceptable in domestic law enforcement? Imagine there was a hit and run. Your car fit the description (actual guilt is irrelevant at this point), so you're pulled over, arrested, and hauled in. Should local law enforcement have the personal discretion to kick you around a bit? Why or why not?

Quote

If that's what you do think, then by your definition everyone who's gotten in a fist fight, a bar fight, etc. has tortured someone.

Bad analogy. In those cases, all the parties involved can defend themselves.

What would you call it, then, if someone in a bar got his buddies, strapped you into a chair with leather belts, then started going to town on you?

[nathaniel 0]

Quote

The reason it's debated is because White Phosphorus is a chemical, so that technically makes munitions that contain Willy Pete "chemical weapons", even though it is more properly classed as an incendiary.

TNT is a chemical too, I suppose that makes TNT a chemical weapon according to you.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?