Death Penalty for drugs in Singapore?

[Lindsey 0]

You argue that the fact that a person committed a crime does not change that taking a person's life is wrong, that killing is wrong whether sanctioned by the state as a form of punishment or not. Why then does the fact that a person committed a crime change that holding a person captive is wrong?

Using that line of reasoning as your argument, any person can say with equal validity that it's wrong for the state to uphold any form of punishment.... The strength of that argument doesn't hold water, imho.

linz

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[billvon 2,989]

>Really? What's the difference?

We accept that committing a crime deprives you of certain rights. For example, if a man killed a police officer here in the US, he might be deprived of his liberty (i.e. jail) or even his life (i.e. capital punishment.) We can argue about which is more appropriate, but no one seriously espouses the idea that such people should be freed.

Being jailed or executed because you live in the same village as an assasin is _not_ accepted, at least here. We assume that such a person has basic rights that cannot be removed because someone else committed a crime.

[kallend 2,026]

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>If the state has the moral authority to execute people
>without question, how does that NOT apply to pre-2003 Iraq?

Because there is a difference between executing someone for murder one, or even selling drugs, and executing someone for living in a certain town.

The premise here is that the government has the moral authority to kill people for those things it deems illegal. Murder, heroin, or spitting on the sidewalk.

I don't agree with that premise, but for those that do, following it to its logical conclusion Saddam Hussein represented the legal government of Iraq and ipso facto was morally and legally entitled to be a despot.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ReBirth 0]

Killing is ultimate, final and cannot be reversed, corrected, or mitigated. When someone is killed their existence is destroyed. No other form of punishment can go to that extreme. It's impossible. Therefore, you can't apply my opinions or argument against killing to any other form of punishment, because they are not the same.

How do you feel about a society that punishes a rapist by ruling that his sister be gang raped? If my argument doesn't hold any water, then any punishment that the gov't deems suitable must be equally valid.

[SudsyFist 0]

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Using that line of reasoning as your argument, any person can say with equal validity that it's wrong for the state to uphold any form of punishment.... The strength of that argument doesn't hold water, imho.

I don't think that that's the argument; you're getting mired in absolutes.

Conversely, then would the stance of one who supports the law and punishment also advocate that there's nothing wrong with a certain Middle Eastern government's sanctioning of a husband's killing his wife simply for dishonor?

The argument is against the taking of life, not against punishment. I thought Rebirth was pretty clear about that.

[RhondaLea 4]

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How do you feel about a society that punishes a rapist by ruling that his sister be gang raped? If my argument doesn't hold any water, then any punishment that the gov't deems suitable must be equally valid.

What you just wrote looks like word salad to me. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

However:

You punish the rapist by allowing the rapist to be gang-raped, not his sister.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[jakee 1,489]

Just a thought, I remember a few threads a while back where people were going apeshit about 'zero tolerance' rules, along the lines of "kids will be suspended if they swear" etc etc. Phrases like "Zero tolerance, zero intelligence" were being thrown all over the place.'

Now we have a situation where a country has a 'zero tolerance' death penalty and the responses we get are 'Oh well, he knew the punishment.

Strike anyone else as odd?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RhondaLea 4]

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The argument is against the taking of life, not against punishment. I thought Rebirth was pretty clear about that.

That's the problem. He hasn't been clear about that at all.

I went back and read his posts again, and I still don't see it.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[ReBirth 0]

Once again, I never said anyone should be freed. I said the gov't should never be permitted to kill. For Rhonda...no, I didn't previously make that statement, but not making a statement isn't the same as advocating it.

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Being jailed or executed because you live in the same village as an assasin is _not_ accepted, at least here.

But in Iraq it was. So...what's the difference?

[ReBirth 0]

Well, I've clarified...three times now. Need a fourth?

[SudsyFist 0]

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Being jailed or executed because you live in the same village as an assasin is _not_ accepted, at least here.

But in Iraq it was. So...what's the difference?

And I'll add that when I served, we were subject to group punishment left and right. Guilt by association: one fucker fucked up, we all paid. So that's not as foreign a concept as it may seem given the example here, and, in fact, it very well can serve a practical purpose.

Disclaimer: I don't universally support the notion of group punishment, but I brought it up for bugger all I don't know what.

[Lindsey 0]

I don't disagree that taking life is wrong. I also don't disagree that taking away someone's freedom is wrong. I'm not sure how I feel about the death penalty. But I certainly see the difference between capital punishment and murder. They're not the same....especially when people know what the likely consequences of their actions are going to be. I see the difference between being sentenced to death by the state, as a punishment for a crime, and being killed as a follow-up on a threat made by another citizen.

You say that killing is wrong...as though it's an a priori truth...and that using it as a punishment doesn't mitigate that. I also say that locking a person up is wrong. Why is it not wrong when used as punishment? Once a person has committed a crime, the rules change. Best to know in what ways they're likely to change before doing something like smuggling heroin in Singapore.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[ReBirth 0]

I'm done with this. Maybe some of you should go witness an execution. Or visit someone on death row. If you're willing to advocate the termination of other people's lives, don't you think you should make a little effort to understand it?

By the way....a man got out of jail a couple months ago who had been locked up for 21 years for killing his girlfriend's baby. Except it turns out, he didn't do it. At least they don't have to dig him up and reincarnate him.

[RhondaLea 4]

From my links collection:

Centurion Ministries

The Innocence Project

Wrongfully Convicted

Which leads us to several thorny philosophical issues complete with analogies about fat men in caves.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Lindsey 0]

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I'm done with this. Maybe some of you should go witness an execution. Or visit someone on death row. If you're willing to advocate the termination of other people's lives, don't you think you should make a little effort to understand it?

By the way....a man got out of jail a couple months ago who had been locked up for 21 years for killing his girlfriend's baby. Except it turns out, he didn't do it. At least they don't have to dig him up and reincarnate him.

And maybe you should see the little 3 y/o whom I treated in the ER a week ago. I promise you I've seen people die. I've seen gruesome. I've been the one to treat people that someone else tried to kill, and I've been the one to treat the person who did the killing. I've seen what I think is evil. I don't care to visit someone on death row. But I do have enough experience where the rubber meets the road to form legitimate opinions on things like the death penalty.

I do not have a strong opinion about the death penalty, but my thoughts are not haphazard about it either. I think a lot of innocent people are convicted of crimes and sentenced. It's horrible that people are convicted wrongly.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[rasmack 0]

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However:

You punish the rapist by allowing the rapist to be gang-raped, not his sister.

I realize you were replying to an equally outrageous statement, but your statement contains one very important piece of information. Apparently you think that punishment is dealt out for the victim of a crime to get revenge and nothing else. I see no other reason to even remotely consider what you wrote there or putting people to death. When they are locked away, they cease to be a problem.

I invite you to look up criminal rehabilitation. It is the concept upon which most civilized societies claim that they base their penal code.

You told ReBirth you didn't want to live in his world. I pray that I will never live in a society based upon the values you preach in this context.

The death penalty is an abhorrent judicial anachronism best left in medieval times where it belongs.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[RhondaLea 4]

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However:

You punish the rapist by allowing the rapist to be gang-raped, not his sister.

I realize you were replying to an equally outrageous statement,

Apparently not, or you wouldn't have then run with it as if it were a genuine point of view.

As for the rest of your comments:

I've got one word for you: recidivism.

By the way. I have a 21-year old daughter. She spent five months in the county jail as part of the plea bargain for three felonies (that she didn't actually commit--but she took the plea because she didn't trust the criminal justice system, and she didn't want to risk a minimum 7.5 year prison term). She has been rehabilitated, and she will bear the scars of it for the rest of her life.

Apart from that, I have worked in the legal system, including several criminal practices, for 20 years. Please don't tell me what I think. I really do know what I think, and some of it does conflict, because my empathy is at war with my logical thought.

I'm don't think I was preaching anything. ReBirth, on the other hand, only once mentioned locking people up. The rest of the time, it sounded like an argument for anarchy. I don't like the idea of anarchy. And I think that the idea that we can lock people up and come back later to fix it if we discover a mistake was made is bullshit. Believe me, it can't be fixed. It's just a sop to the conscience of a wimp. Stop bitching about the death penalty and find some way to fix the legal system so that innocent people are not subject to punishment.

Finally, I am well aware of the problems with the death penalty, but if they can be solved, I do absolutely believe that some people are better dead.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[ReBirth 0]

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I've got one word for you: recidivism.

I've got three for you: life in prison.

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Please don't tell me what I think.

Please don't tell others what I think. I never once said no one should ever be punished. I said, repeatedly, no one should be KILLED by the state. You jumped to the rest of your assumptions, but don't try to pawn that off on me.

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It's just a sop to the conscience of a wimp. Stop bitching about the death penalty and find some way to fix the legal system so that innocent people are not subject to punishment.

People who are willing to allow the state to kill for them are the wimps. Why don't you get a job as an executioner if you are so in favor of the death penalty. Stand there and take the life with your own two hands instead of getting someone else to do the dirty work for you.

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Finally, I am well aware of the problems with the death penalty

Yet you're willing to allow the mistaken killing to continue.

[RhondaLea 4]

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I've got one word for you: recidivism.

I've got three for you: life in prison.

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Please don't tell me what I think.

Please don't tell others what I think. I never once said no one should ever be punished. I said, repeatedly, no one should be KILLED by the state. You jumped to the rest of your assumptions, but don't try to pawn that off on me.

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It's just a sop to the conscience of a wimp. Stop bitching about the death penalty and find some way to fix the legal system so that innocent people are not subject to punishment.

People who are willing to allow the state to kill for them are the wimps. Why don't you get a job as an executioner if you are so in favor of the death penalty. Stand there and take the life with your own two hands instead of getting someone else to do the dirty work for you.

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Finally, I am well aware of the problems with the death penalty

Yet you're willing to allow the mistaken killing to continue. That disgusts me. How would you like it if your daughter was accused of something worse and got the death penalty?

You really have a problem constructing analogies, don't you?

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[ReBirth 0]

You quoted my entire post (that doesn't have any analogies in it) to say that?

[artistcalledian 0]

its funny isn't it... but every person who goes to prison (even for 5 months) seems to be innocent, we have a system of prisons full of the wrong people

i believe in the death penalty for certain crimes and not others.... what we really need is life in prison to actually mean life, and no chance of perole, like what happens in this country.

if you're convicted of murder in England, you get a mandatory life sentence with a recommended number of years to serve by the judge, so life actually doesn't mean life

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[RhondaLea 4]

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You quoted my entire post (that doesn't have any analogies in it) to say that?

You have worn me out.

Your position: No death penalty.

My position: The death penalty has a place, if we can find a way to avoid putting innocents to death.

All the rest of it is a lot of horseshit, obfuscation, and rigamarole.

What passes for argument in this forum is appalling. Cheers to Lindsey for at least knowing how to construct and understand an argument--even and especially when she doesn't necessarily agree with the point of view being expressed.

I lost patience. That's what I'm saying. This isn't discussion, it's not about examining something, it's just about who can manufacture the most bullshit and who can overpower the other guy.

Some of my own tactics in this thread were pretty shitty, and I deserve to be walloped for them, but I don't argue like that all of the time, because it's demeaning.

If "winning the argument" is out-sliming the competition, you're welcome to it.

rl

P.S. No, there wasn't an actual analogy in it. You merely invited me to analogize using my daughter as the subject of a death penalty argument. I refer you to my diatribe above.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[seedy 0]

Back a few pages you accused me of lacking empathy. I have empathy.....for the young wife with two small children who saw their young father gunned down for a few bucks by crackheads. I have empathy......for the families of elementary school children who now have to deal with young addicts because of scumbags like the criminal whose life you value so highly. I have empthy.......for the parents of the young girl who was raped, tortured and dismembered.


I have no empathy for the animals who perpetrate evil on this world.


I think your loyalties are in the wrong place and that was the whole purpose of what I was trying to drag out of you. I don't want to know what you believe, but WHY you believe.

I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.

[ReBirth 0]

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what we really need is life in prison to actually mean life, and no chance of perole, like what happens in this country.

I agree with that completely. Same problem here. Lifers are usually paroled. And that all goes back to one of my original statements in this thread. Part of the cause of violent crime here is that so many kNOWN violent criminals are wallking the streets. Even though we have the 2nd highest incarceration rate in the world. We need to stop locking up drug abusers in prison, treat them instead, that way we can keep the violent criminals behind bars. The current incarceration is unmanageable and as a result, we end up releasing sociopaths to make room for stoners.

[ReBirth 0]

I empathize with them as well. But not to the point of sanctioning execution of prisoners. Should they have justice? Yes. Revenge at the hands of the state? No.

I'll try to clarify further why I believe this way. The State...any State is basically a beuracracy empowered by the people. I don't think a beuracratic system can EVER not make mistakes. There should be no margin of error when dealing with the taking of human life. If, and that's a big if, there were a way to guarantee that no innocent person were ever executed ever, then I may agree with the death penalty for certain and specific crimes. I just don't think that hypothetical situation will ever be possible, and therefore, don't believe the risk to an innocent individual is worth it. I also empathize with them.