jeiber 0 #76 December 6, 2005 Quoteso someone, in your opinion, who murders another person, has no redeeming qualities at all and will not ever have any in the future? Not my opinion at all, actually. I've made alot of broad assumptions regarding the circumstances of this crime. I'd rather debate the issue of forgiveness, rather than go over the exact details of this particular crime. My point is, I can only imagine the pain of losing something as loved as a child. Knowing that two boys drove an ice axe into his head, only because they didn't like the way he looked... well, you read my prevous post.... call it revenge, call it justice, call it what you like, but forgiveness will come after their bodies are cold. JShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #77 December 6, 2005 QuoteSo, this kinda takes away any hint of universality in your approach. So, does confronting that as a possibility change your mind at all, or do you just stick out your chin and grin and indulge in hypocrisy? Huh? There's no hypocrisy there... it's extremely universal - universal to the extent of saying any possible contradictions (on my part) are based purely on emotion, not logic... for me to dismiss this is to say that I never act out of emotion. QuoteSweet method, it is. That it is, but only when used correctly! Quoteperhaps come up with a better, more universal approach to the whole thing. Yes, if we were analyzing the philosophy of justice from a utilitarian perspective, that's a good starting point. However, it doesn't answer, 'could you forgive somebody who murders your loved one?'. Oh, in regards to 'rehabilitation' - great idea, our previous sex offenders have now learned to kill their victims when they're done raping them... JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #78 December 6, 2005 QuoteWhat I really do not understand is that talking about forgiving. Why the hell should I ever forgive a person which killed someone I loved?! Never, ever. I would love to join that guy to the hot chair, to look into his eyes, to share his last seconds with him. No pity. I would do that too... however, some condemned killers wouldn't be fazed in the least... Anybody remember that cold-blooded look Timothy McVeigh had when he was about to be executed... pure evil... "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #79 December 6, 2005 QuoteHuh? There's no hypocrisy there... it's extremely universal - universal to the extent of saying any possible contradictions (on my part) are based purely on emotion, not logic... for me to dismiss this is to say that I never act out of emotion. Whether emotionally driven or not, if you would have different if the "bad person" in question was your son, then there's no universality there: it's hypocritical. QuoteHowever, it doesn't answer, 'could you forgive somebody who murders your loved one?'. It certainly can help with the answer. If you consider your wife was the murderer, would you want her forgiven by those from whom she took someone away? If so, why? Considering these kinds of questions is difficult at best, but it helps tremendously in evaluating one's own ethics, particularly with regard to universality (and hypocrisy). QuoteOh, in regards to 'rehabilitation' - great idea, our previous sex offenders have now learned to kill their victims when they're done raping them... It was a general throwout as one of many possibilities, not a fix-all. I'm not one to be strawmanned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #80 December 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhat I really do not understand is that talking about forgiving. Why the hell should I ever forgive a person which killed someone I loved?! Never, ever. I would love to join that guy to the hot chair, to look into his eyes, to share his last seconds with him. No pity. I would do that too... however, some condemned killers wouldn't be fazed in the least... Anybody remember that cold-blooded look Timothy McVeigh had when he was about to be executed... pure evil... Devil 1 3. God 0. Hot damn! Not much for me to do here; y'all sell yourselves! I'm beginning to like this job... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jeiber 0 #81 December 6, 2005 QuoteWhether emotionally driven or not, if you would have different if the "bad person" in question was your son, then there's no universality there: it's hypocritical. Your trying to cross emotion with logic... The foundations of logical thinking are based on the concept of the 'sound mind'. This has been widely accepted back to the day of Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle, and it holds true now. My statement of 'good' and 'bad' is not hypocritical because it never changes. If, at some point in my life I am NOT of sound mind, such as when under extreme mental duress, I will likely have illogical thoughts. I guess you've never made a bad decision based on emotion? It doesn't make you a hypocrit, as long as you can acknowledge you made a mistake. QuoteI'm not one to be strawmanned. I just don't care too much for 'rehabilitation' these days. JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #82 December 6, 2005 QuoteYour trying to cross emotion with logic... The foundations of logical thinking are based on the concept of the 'sound mind'. This has been widely accepted back to the day of Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle, and it holds true now. Even those guys took into account that emotion played a part in ethics, even Aristotle, who was probably the least flexible of them all. Let's take a quick look Aristotle's teleological views, for instance. Virtue is key. Hate, along with a slew of other negative emotions, absolutely works against virtue, and is absolutely wrong. Under Aristotle's framework, your approach isn't virtuous, and therefore wrong. There are other approaches, however, which are just as valid, deontology among them. Me likey Kant. An act is right if and only if you would will that it would become universal law. And going by what you've described thus far, your approach fails this test, too. Utilitarianism, however, is a different beast. You sound like someone who'd like Mill's work. End justifies means. The more people are happy with the outcome, the more good it is. Your approach may fit this one nicely. Be careful, though, utilitarianism has a tendency to bite one in the ass. Hard. QuoteI guess you've never made a bad decision based on emotion? It doesn't make you a hypocrit, as long as you can acknowledge you made a mistake. Certainly have. But what I consider, "bad," is likely different than yours. If I make a decision based on emotion which I regret for its being bad, then yes, I acknowledge it as a mistake. If, however, emotion influences a decision I make, and I would have anyone else do the same thing in my position, then I don't see it as a bad thing at all. QuoteI just don't care too much for 'rehabilitation' these days. Indeed, it's a tough subject, rife with issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Merkur 1 #83 December 6, 2005 QuoteWithout having been put in that specific situation, I'm pretty confident that I can say, "Yes, I could." Having been there I have to say : " I can't!" The guy in question just escaped my plan to kill him by jumping from a bridge a couple of hours after he killed my girlfriend. As this has happened 15 years ago now, I still think that i would try to kill him if he would come out of prison today but I am probalby not as sure anymore as I was at that time. Do I still hate him? No, as I don't want to give this person any influence in my life. But writing this I`m not so sure if this not might still be a yes. Did I forgive him: Definitely no and I never will for he has nearly destroyed also my life through the pain I had at that time. M.vSCR No.94 Don't dream your life - live your dream! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #84 December 6, 2005 QuoteHaving been there I have to say : " I can't!" I'm really sorry you had to go through that, man. I truly hope that someday you can find peace, even in that memory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jeiber 0 #85 December 7, 2005 QuoteLet's take a quick look Aristotle's teleological views Aristotle believed that someone under extreme duress is not responsible for his actions. QuoteMe likey Kant. Talk about inflexible.... Sheesh, Kant is the posterchild for Corporate America! QuoteYou sound like someone who'd like Mill's work. Yes I do, but as you know, the majority isn't always right. As you pointed out, Mill is flawed - almost to the degree of Kant! I actually try to live my life in accordance with the golden mean. Aristotle's emphasis on 'virtue' is where things really start falling apart for him. Your 'analysis' of me was close though! Look me up if you're in FL, I'd love to continue this over a beer! JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #86 December 7, 2005 QuoteLook me up if you're in FL, I'd love to continue this over a beer! And likewise if you ever find yourself in San Diego. I'll have a cranberry, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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SudsyFist 0 #80 December 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhat I really do not understand is that talking about forgiving. Why the hell should I ever forgive a person which killed someone I loved?! Never, ever. I would love to join that guy to the hot chair, to look into his eyes, to share his last seconds with him. No pity. I would do that too... however, some condemned killers wouldn't be fazed in the least... Anybody remember that cold-blooded look Timothy McVeigh had when he was about to be executed... pure evil... Devil 1 3. God 0. Hot damn! Not much for me to do here; y'all sell yourselves! I'm beginning to like this job... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jeiber 0 #81 December 6, 2005 QuoteWhether emotionally driven or not, if you would have different if the "bad person" in question was your son, then there's no universality there: it's hypocritical. Your trying to cross emotion with logic... The foundations of logical thinking are based on the concept of the 'sound mind'. This has been widely accepted back to the day of Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle, and it holds true now. My statement of 'good' and 'bad' is not hypocritical because it never changes. If, at some point in my life I am NOT of sound mind, such as when under extreme mental duress, I will likely have illogical thoughts. I guess you've never made a bad decision based on emotion? It doesn't make you a hypocrit, as long as you can acknowledge you made a mistake. QuoteI'm not one to be strawmanned. I just don't care too much for 'rehabilitation' these days. JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #82 December 6, 2005 QuoteYour trying to cross emotion with logic... The foundations of logical thinking are based on the concept of the 'sound mind'. This has been widely accepted back to the day of Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle, and it holds true now. Even those guys took into account that emotion played a part in ethics, even Aristotle, who was probably the least flexible of them all. Let's take a quick look Aristotle's teleological views, for instance. Virtue is key. Hate, along with a slew of other negative emotions, absolutely works against virtue, and is absolutely wrong. Under Aristotle's framework, your approach isn't virtuous, and therefore wrong. There are other approaches, however, which are just as valid, deontology among them. Me likey Kant. An act is right if and only if you would will that it would become universal law. And going by what you've described thus far, your approach fails this test, too. Utilitarianism, however, is a different beast. You sound like someone who'd like Mill's work. End justifies means. The more people are happy with the outcome, the more good it is. Your approach may fit this one nicely. Be careful, though, utilitarianism has a tendency to bite one in the ass. Hard. QuoteI guess you've never made a bad decision based on emotion? It doesn't make you a hypocrit, as long as you can acknowledge you made a mistake. Certainly have. But what I consider, "bad," is likely different than yours. If I make a decision based on emotion which I regret for its being bad, then yes, I acknowledge it as a mistake. If, however, emotion influences a decision I make, and I would have anyone else do the same thing in my position, then I don't see it as a bad thing at all. QuoteI just don't care too much for 'rehabilitation' these days. Indeed, it's a tough subject, rife with issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Merkur 1 #83 December 6, 2005 QuoteWithout having been put in that specific situation, I'm pretty confident that I can say, "Yes, I could." Having been there I have to say : " I can't!" The guy in question just escaped my plan to kill him by jumping from a bridge a couple of hours after he killed my girlfriend. As this has happened 15 years ago now, I still think that i would try to kill him if he would come out of prison today but I am probalby not as sure anymore as I was at that time. Do I still hate him? No, as I don't want to give this person any influence in my life. But writing this I`m not so sure if this not might still be a yes. Did I forgive him: Definitely no and I never will for he has nearly destroyed also my life through the pain I had at that time. M.vSCR No.94 Don't dream your life - live your dream! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #84 December 6, 2005 QuoteHaving been there I have to say : " I can't!" I'm really sorry you had to go through that, man. I truly hope that someday you can find peace, even in that memory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jeiber 0 #85 December 7, 2005 QuoteLet's take a quick look Aristotle's teleological views Aristotle believed that someone under extreme duress is not responsible for his actions. QuoteMe likey Kant. Talk about inflexible.... Sheesh, Kant is the posterchild for Corporate America! QuoteYou sound like someone who'd like Mill's work. Yes I do, but as you know, the majority isn't always right. As you pointed out, Mill is flawed - almost to the degree of Kant! I actually try to live my life in accordance with the golden mean. Aristotle's emphasis on 'virtue' is where things really start falling apart for him. Your 'analysis' of me was close though! Look me up if you're in FL, I'd love to continue this over a beer! JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #86 December 7, 2005 QuoteLook me up if you're in FL, I'd love to continue this over a beer! And likewise if you ever find yourself in San Diego. I'll have a cranberry, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
jeiber 0 #81 December 6, 2005 QuoteWhether emotionally driven or not, if you would have different if the "bad person" in question was your son, then there's no universality there: it's hypocritical. Your trying to cross emotion with logic... The foundations of logical thinking are based on the concept of the 'sound mind'. This has been widely accepted back to the day of Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle, and it holds true now. My statement of 'good' and 'bad' is not hypocritical because it never changes. If, at some point in my life I am NOT of sound mind, such as when under extreme mental duress, I will likely have illogical thoughts. I guess you've never made a bad decision based on emotion? It doesn't make you a hypocrit, as long as you can acknowledge you made a mistake. QuoteI'm not one to be strawmanned. I just don't care too much for 'rehabilitation' these days. JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #82 December 6, 2005 QuoteYour trying to cross emotion with logic... The foundations of logical thinking are based on the concept of the 'sound mind'. This has been widely accepted back to the day of Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle, and it holds true now. Even those guys took into account that emotion played a part in ethics, even Aristotle, who was probably the least flexible of them all. Let's take a quick look Aristotle's teleological views, for instance. Virtue is key. Hate, along with a slew of other negative emotions, absolutely works against virtue, and is absolutely wrong. Under Aristotle's framework, your approach isn't virtuous, and therefore wrong. There are other approaches, however, which are just as valid, deontology among them. Me likey Kant. An act is right if and only if you would will that it would become universal law. And going by what you've described thus far, your approach fails this test, too. Utilitarianism, however, is a different beast. You sound like someone who'd like Mill's work. End justifies means. The more people are happy with the outcome, the more good it is. Your approach may fit this one nicely. Be careful, though, utilitarianism has a tendency to bite one in the ass. Hard. QuoteI guess you've never made a bad decision based on emotion? It doesn't make you a hypocrit, as long as you can acknowledge you made a mistake. Certainly have. But what I consider, "bad," is likely different than yours. If I make a decision based on emotion which I regret for its being bad, then yes, I acknowledge it as a mistake. If, however, emotion influences a decision I make, and I would have anyone else do the same thing in my position, then I don't see it as a bad thing at all. QuoteI just don't care too much for 'rehabilitation' these days. Indeed, it's a tough subject, rife with issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merkur 1 #83 December 6, 2005 QuoteWithout having been put in that specific situation, I'm pretty confident that I can say, "Yes, I could." Having been there I have to say : " I can't!" The guy in question just escaped my plan to kill him by jumping from a bridge a couple of hours after he killed my girlfriend. As this has happened 15 years ago now, I still think that i would try to kill him if he would come out of prison today but I am probalby not as sure anymore as I was at that time. Do I still hate him? No, as I don't want to give this person any influence in my life. But writing this I`m not so sure if this not might still be a yes. Did I forgive him: Definitely no and I never will for he has nearly destroyed also my life through the pain I had at that time. M.vSCR No.94 Don't dream your life - live your dream! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #84 December 6, 2005 QuoteHaving been there I have to say : " I can't!" I'm really sorry you had to go through that, man. I truly hope that someday you can find peace, even in that memory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #85 December 7, 2005 QuoteLet's take a quick look Aristotle's teleological views Aristotle believed that someone under extreme duress is not responsible for his actions. QuoteMe likey Kant. Talk about inflexible.... Sheesh, Kant is the posterchild for Corporate America! QuoteYou sound like someone who'd like Mill's work. Yes I do, but as you know, the majority isn't always right. As you pointed out, Mill is flawed - almost to the degree of Kant! I actually try to live my life in accordance with the golden mean. Aristotle's emphasis on 'virtue' is where things really start falling apart for him. Your 'analysis' of me was close though! Look me up if you're in FL, I'd love to continue this over a beer! JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #86 December 7, 2005 QuoteLook me up if you're in FL, I'd love to continue this over a beer! And likewise if you ever find yourself in San Diego. I'll have a cranberry, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
