mikkey 0 #1 December 6, 2005 I have thought a few times how it would be to be caught up by accident in the Gitmo / CIA rendering type of situation. Not much fun when the worlds only super power and so called "home of the free" - discards with the principles of due process, human rights and anti-torture (well or just redefines what torture is).... See link for a German guy who got caught up and now is suing the CIA. I know the reaction here already... "bad luck, oh well, price of freedom, shit happens etc." I don't think the US has had a lower standing in international opinion since Vietnam. Something that will not be in the US interests and something that will not be helpful in "the war on terror". The whole spin coming from the US administration reminds me of US claims during the Vietnam war of having saved a village by destroying it. http://us.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/06/cia.rendition.ap/index.html QuoteWASHINGTON (AP) -- A German man filed a lawsuit Tuesday claiming he was held captive and tortured by U.S. government agents after being mistakenly identified as an associate of the September 11 hijackers. Khaled el-Masri, who is being represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, said he was arrested while attempting to enter Macedonia for a holiday trip and flown to Afghanistan. During five months in captivity he was subjected to "torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment," says a lawsuit he filed in U.S. District Court in suburban Alexandria, Virginia. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #2 December 6, 2005 >During five months in captivity he was subjected to "torture and other > cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment," says a lawsuit he filed in > U.S. District Court in suburban Alexandria, Virginia. He must be lying. Dr. Rice just said we don't torture people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #3 December 6, 2005 Quote>During five months in captivity he was subjected to "torture and other > cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment," says a lawsuit he filed in > U.S. District Court in suburban Alexandria, Virginia. He must be lying. Dr. Rice just said we don't torture people. Depends how you define torture. According to official Pentagon statements "water boarding" and other torture methods are not torture...--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #4 December 6, 2005 I agree, the bastard is lying, only looking to make millions on a law suit so he can continue not having to work. I bet he will also sue do to the fine meals he recieved which caused him to gain weight and therefore subjected him to possible heart failure in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #5 December 6, 2005 QuoteMrs Merkel said the United States acknowledged making a mistake in detaining Mr Masri. While refusing to comment on the case directly, Ms Rice said the US sought to rectify any mistakes made. Both told reporters that intelligence work was an essential part of the war on terror, but should not break international law. Before she left the US, Ms Rice admitted that terror suspects were flown abroad for interrogation but denied they were tortured. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4504292.stm Why would you fly people to secret jails in countries with flawed human rights if you do not intend to use methods illegal in the US?--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #6 December 6, 2005 Quote>During five months in captivity he was subjected to "torture and other > cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment," says a lawsuit he filed in > U.S. District Court in suburban Alexandria, Virginia. He must be lying. Dr. Rice just said we don't torture people. Just be VERY clear on the semantics, Condi's recent statement very very carefully used the present tense in most places. Nothing can be deduced, strictly speaking, about what the US did last week or last month. If the Bush administration indeed is obeying laws against torture, then why is it battling McCain's proposal?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #7 December 6, 2005 Quote>During five months in captivity he was subjected to "torture and other > cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment," says a lawsuit he filed in > U.S. District Court in suburban Alexandria, Virginia. He must be lying. Dr. Rice just said we don't torture people. Yep. Dr. R. is in Germany to see Dr. M. Dres. don't lie. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #8 December 6, 2005 Interesting calling an innocent man "bastard" who was wongly abducted, detained for 5 month in secret without access to laywers or family while being abused....... - even Condi has admitted it was "a mistake". Here is another story how the CIA broke Italian law and obstructed justice there.... http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/italy-furious-over-cia-terror-kidnap/2005/12/06/1133829595923.html QuoteIn fact, according to Italian court documents and interviews with investigators, the CIA's tip was a deliberate lie, part of a ruse designed to stymie efforts by the Italian anti-terrorism police to track down the cleric, Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, an Egyptian refugee known as Abu Omar. The strategy worked for more than a year until Italian investigators learned that Nasr had not gone to the Balkans after all. Instead, prosecutors say he was abducted in Milan by a team of CIA operatives who took him to two US military bases in succession and then flew him to Egypt, where he was interrogated and allegedly tortured by Egyptian security agents before being released to house arrest. Italian judicial authorities publicly disclosed the CIA operation in the northern spring. But a review of recently filed court documents and interviews in Milan offers fresh details about how the CIA allegedly spread disinformation to cover its tracks and how its actions in Milan damaged an Italian investigation. "The kidnapping of Abu Omar was not only a serious crime against Italian sovereignty and human rights, but it also seriously damaged counterterrorism efforts in Italy and Europe," said prosecutor Armando Spataro in Milan. "In fact, if Abu Omar had not been kidnapped, he would now be in prison, subject to a regular trial, and we would have probably identified his other accomplices." --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #9 December 6, 2005 QuoteQuote>During five months in captivity he was subjected to "torture and other > cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment," says a lawsuit he filed in > U.S. District Court in suburban Alexandria, Virginia. He must be lying. Dr. Rice just said we don't torture people. Depends how you define torture. According to official Pentagon statements "water boarding" and other torture methods are not torture... Hi Mikky Plausable deniability "I never had sex with that women" The sad thing is some people will belive what the politicians "is" saying. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #10 December 6, 2005 Yep... This is how America makes friends and influences people. Apparently it's been a week of mistakes for the CIA in The War on Error! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #11 December 6, 2005 Here's a quote from a post I made back in June, 2004: Quote I'm fed up with the "Criminal Defense Attorney" tactics of the Bush administration with regards to torture. What I mean is this - criminal defense attorneys try to duck, dodge and weave throughout a law, arguing for exceptions and other things. Ultimately, they hope to take a valid law and make it either invalid or unenforceable. On the one hand, you've got a Pentagon memo arguing that torture is allowable at Gitmo because it is US soil, and the applicable laws apply only to activities outside of US territory. On the other hand, you've got the Attorney General memos arguing that torture is allowed at Gitmo because the applicable laws forbid torture on US soil, and Gitmo is in Cuba, and therefore can be allowed. Fundamentally, I'm fed up with the intellectual and political dishonesty of the whole affair. By the way, here's the Presidential Oath of Office: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States." Fundamental to the Constitution (well, not the original Constitution, but since 1791) is the right to due process, "No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" as seen in the 5th Amendment. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DexterBase 1 #12 December 6, 2005 QuoteFundamental to the Constitution (well, not the original Constitution, but since 1791) is the right to due process, "No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" as seen in the 5th Amendment. The Constitution protects citizens of America. If you're a terror suspect and not an American, you are afforded no protection by the US Constitution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #13 December 6, 2005 QuoteBy the way, here's the Presidential Oath of Office: That would assume your president is in office to look outf or the best interest of Americans.....unfortunately, it shows more and mroe that he is in office for the best interest of himself, his family and his closest allies.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #14 December 6, 2005 QuoteThe Constitution protects citizens of America. If you're a terror suspect and not an American, you are afforded no protection by the US Constitution. Does that mean that when I am in America and I am not an American I am also not bound by US law? I am flying to NYC tomorrow morning....I'll try that out, see how it works... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DexterBase 1 #15 December 6, 2005 No, it means exactly what I typed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #16 December 6, 2005 QuoteThe Constitution protects citizens of America. From where do you get that notion? It outlines the legal framework of our nation as the "supreme Law of the Land" -- it doesn't protect anyone, citizen or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DexterBase 1 #17 December 6, 2005 The document maps out which laws are allowed and the framework of our federal system. I'd say that the bill of rights pretty much covers what protection the constitution affords us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #18 December 6, 2005 QuoteI'd say that the bill of rights pretty much covers what protection the constitution affords us. The Bill of Rights is a group of amendments to the Constitution. If you read them, you'll see things like, "Congress shall make no law," and, "In all criminal prosecutions," and, "In Suits at common law." In fact, the word, "citizen," isn't even used until the 11th amendment (after the Bill of Rights). If the Bill of Rights only pertained to citizens, then unnaturalized immigrants could kiss speedy trials goodbye, for starters. EDIT: Stupid singular/plural crap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #19 December 6, 2005 QuoteInteresting calling an innocent man "bastard" who was wongly abducted, detained for 5 month in secret without access to laywers or family while being abused....... - even Condi has admitted it was "a mistake". HE IS BROWN MIKKEY we don't care about brown people. We only want freedom and human rights for US citizens no matter what the cost it is to the rest of the world..........oh did I mention we are hated because we are free and jealousy and no other reason what so ever.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,534 #20 December 6, 2005 Nope, not that he's brown most likely. Maybe a little bit, but not mostly. It's the "you wouldn't have been accused if you weren't guilty of something" mindset instead. If one is really "with" the government, then one will put up with and support any indignity. Or something like that Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #21 December 6, 2005 QuoteHE IS BROWN MIKKEY we don't care about brown people. But being brown does have its advantages. After all, I can repeatedly say, "nigger," with impunity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,534 #22 December 6, 2005 QuoteAfter all, I can repeatedly say, "nigger," with impunityYeah, but you can't say "hollywood defines beautiful" can you Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #23 December 6, 2005 QuoteYeah, but you can't say "hollywood defines beautiful" can you I can say, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful," though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ReBirth 0 #24 December 6, 2005 QuoteThe Constitution protects citizens of America. Bzzzzzt...try again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #25 December 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteFundamental to the Constitution (well, not the original Constitution, but since 1791) is the right to due process, "No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" as seen in the 5th Amendment. The Constitution protects citizens of America. If you're a terror suspect and not an American, you are afforded no protection by the US Constitution. As I stated earlier, take a valid law or concept (note that the 5th Amendment states "No person" and try to poke holes and weave exceptions into it, leaving it useless and without meaning or power. Frankly, I'd like to see the Constitution read by its plain meaning and original intent, i.e., when it says, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" it means what it says. Under your line of thought, the Third Amendment could be read differently. It says, "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." Ah, the Amendment says nothing about Marines or Airmen, or even the Coast Guard. So, we'll find that exception and weave it in. Therefore, since there is no proscription of it, let's have them all (except Soldiers) quartered in private residences. Come on. We can all tell what they meant with it. Post-hoc reasoning and flippant semantics, once the tools of the left, now seem to have a firm foothold in the right-wing, as well. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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DexterBase 1 #17 December 6, 2005 The document maps out which laws are allowed and the framework of our federal system. I'd say that the bill of rights pretty much covers what protection the constitution affords us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #18 December 6, 2005 QuoteI'd say that the bill of rights pretty much covers what protection the constitution affords us. The Bill of Rights is a group of amendments to the Constitution. If you read them, you'll see things like, "Congress shall make no law," and, "In all criminal prosecutions," and, "In Suits at common law." In fact, the word, "citizen," isn't even used until the 11th amendment (after the Bill of Rights). If the Bill of Rights only pertained to citizens, then unnaturalized immigrants could kiss speedy trials goodbye, for starters. EDIT: Stupid singular/plural crap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #19 December 6, 2005 QuoteInteresting calling an innocent man "bastard" who was wongly abducted, detained for 5 month in secret without access to laywers or family while being abused....... - even Condi has admitted it was "a mistake". HE IS BROWN MIKKEY we don't care about brown people. We only want freedom and human rights for US citizens no matter what the cost it is to the rest of the world..........oh did I mention we are hated because we are free and jealousy and no other reason what so ever.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,534 #20 December 6, 2005 Nope, not that he's brown most likely. Maybe a little bit, but not mostly. It's the "you wouldn't have been accused if you weren't guilty of something" mindset instead. If one is really "with" the government, then one will put up with and support any indignity. Or something like that Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #21 December 6, 2005 QuoteHE IS BROWN MIKKEY we don't care about brown people. But being brown does have its advantages. After all, I can repeatedly say, "nigger," with impunity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,534 #22 December 6, 2005 QuoteAfter all, I can repeatedly say, "nigger," with impunityYeah, but you can't say "hollywood defines beautiful" can you Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #23 December 6, 2005 QuoteYeah, but you can't say "hollywood defines beautiful" can you I can say, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful," though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ReBirth 0 #24 December 6, 2005 QuoteThe Constitution protects citizens of America. Bzzzzzt...try again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #25 December 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteFundamental to the Constitution (well, not the original Constitution, but since 1791) is the right to due process, "No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" as seen in the 5th Amendment. The Constitution protects citizens of America. If you're a terror suspect and not an American, you are afforded no protection by the US Constitution. As I stated earlier, take a valid law or concept (note that the 5th Amendment states "No person" and try to poke holes and weave exceptions into it, leaving it useless and without meaning or power. Frankly, I'd like to see the Constitution read by its plain meaning and original intent, i.e., when it says, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" it means what it says. Under your line of thought, the Third Amendment could be read differently. It says, "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." Ah, the Amendment says nothing about Marines or Airmen, or even the Coast Guard. So, we'll find that exception and weave it in. Therefore, since there is no proscription of it, let's have them all (except Soldiers) quartered in private residences. Come on. We can all tell what they meant with it. Post-hoc reasoning and flippant semantics, once the tools of the left, now seem to have a firm foothold in the right-wing, as well. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
wmw999 2,534 #22 December 6, 2005 QuoteAfter all, I can repeatedly say, "nigger," with impunityYeah, but you can't say "hollywood defines beautiful" can you Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #23 December 6, 2005 QuoteYeah, but you can't say "hollywood defines beautiful" can you I can say, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful," though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ReBirth 0 #24 December 6, 2005 QuoteThe Constitution protects citizens of America. Bzzzzzt...try again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #25 December 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteFundamental to the Constitution (well, not the original Constitution, but since 1791) is the right to due process, "No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" as seen in the 5th Amendment. The Constitution protects citizens of America. If you're a terror suspect and not an American, you are afforded no protection by the US Constitution. As I stated earlier, take a valid law or concept (note that the 5th Amendment states "No person" and try to poke holes and weave exceptions into it, leaving it useless and without meaning or power. Frankly, I'd like to see the Constitution read by its plain meaning and original intent, i.e., when it says, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" it means what it says. Under your line of thought, the Third Amendment could be read differently. It says, "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." Ah, the Amendment says nothing about Marines or Airmen, or even the Coast Guard. So, we'll find that exception and weave it in. Therefore, since there is no proscription of it, let's have them all (except Soldiers) quartered in private residences. Come on. We can all tell what they meant with it. Post-hoc reasoning and flippant semantics, once the tools of the left, now seem to have a firm foothold in the right-wing, as well. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
ReBirth 0 #24 December 6, 2005 QuoteThe Constitution protects citizens of America. Bzzzzzt...try again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #25 December 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteFundamental to the Constitution (well, not the original Constitution, but since 1791) is the right to due process, "No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" as seen in the 5th Amendment. The Constitution protects citizens of America. If you're a terror suspect and not an American, you are afforded no protection by the US Constitution. As I stated earlier, take a valid law or concept (note that the 5th Amendment states "No person" and try to poke holes and weave exceptions into it, leaving it useless and without meaning or power. Frankly, I'd like to see the Constitution read by its plain meaning and original intent, i.e., when it says, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" it means what it says. Under your line of thought, the Third Amendment could be read differently. It says, "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." Ah, the Amendment says nothing about Marines or Airmen, or even the Coast Guard. So, we'll find that exception and weave it in. Therefore, since there is no proscription of it, let's have them all (except Soldiers) quartered in private residences. Come on. We can all tell what they meant with it. Post-hoc reasoning and flippant semantics, once the tools of the left, now seem to have a firm foothold in the right-wing, as well. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
