Bush admits 30,000 Iraqi deaths

[kallend 2,027]

PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- A fledgling democracy in Iraq will take time to grow but will make the world safer from terrorists, President Bush said Monday while acknowledging more than 30,000 Iraqis have been killed since the U.S.-led invasion nearly three years ago.

Bush also said that he would do it again DESPITE there being no evidence of WMDs or that Iraq was an actual threat.


Meanwhile, from ABC News:

Only 44 percent of Iraqis say they believe things are going well in their country; 52 percent said they felt the country was "doing badly." Support for the U.S.-led invasion has dropped: In February 2004, 39 percent of Iraqis told us they believed the invasion was wrong, but today that number stands at 50 percent. Even among optimistic Iraqis it appears the U.S. gets little credit for any improvements in their lives. Fewer than one in five Iraqis believes that U.S. reconstruction efforts have been "effective." Most Iraqis now say they "disapprove strongly" of how the U.S. has operated in Iraq. Not surprisingly, the percentage of Iraqis today who oppose the U.S. presence has spiked — from 51 percent to 65 percent.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Well....... you know how Bush lies.

[philh 0]

Its one thing to make a mistake (invading a country to get rid of their WMDs when they dont have any) its quite amazing to see hed do it again knowing that he was in error. What an horrendous fellow Mr bush is. 15 times the number of people that died on Sep 11th are dead and Mr Bush says hed do it again. I wonder if iraq goes from a secular dictatorship to an Islamic dictattorship will he say the same?

[Darius11 12]

Wow I remember me saying that a few months ago. It always amazes me how long it takes this administration and it’s supporters to admit simple truths.

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Bush also said that he would do it again DESPITE there being no evidence of WMDs or that Iraq was an actual threat.

I wonder if he would feel the same if the 30000 or more killed were his family members or Americans.


Lets put that in to perspective. At the end of the nightly news they always show a fallen hero and talk about him/her for about 30 seconds. It would take 250 Hours to give the same respect to fallen Iraqis.

I know many will say that we are fighting for there freedom and they should pay the higher casualty but I don’t remember receiving an invitation or a call for help.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Iraqis are far more optimistic about their individual circumstances than when we last asked these questions; seven in 10 now say their lives are going well, and two in three believe things will improve in the coming year.

Such optimism covers nearly the entire range of living conditions — significant improvements are seen in medical care, water quality and even in terms of security. This last finding was perhaps most striking: six in 10 Iraqis now say they feel safe in their neighborhoods. The only real exceptions to this optimism in our quality-of-life metrics involve electricity and the availability of jobs.

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Yet there are ample reasons for optimism: The burgeoning commerce that now touches nearly all corners of the country; an economy growing, thanks in part to the high price of oil; per-capita income up 60 percent, to $263 per month; improvements in health care and education; and the widely held belief that next week's elections will make a positive difference. Seventy-six percent of Iraqis told us they were "confident" the elections would produce a "stable government" — and despite the sectarian divisions, few Iraqis express concern about civil war.

What a blatantly biased view you try to present. Anybody reading the entire article will not come away with the doom and gloom you posted. It seems to me that this is similar to polls done a few years ago in the US. When asked about how people were doing personally, the response was "great!" When asked how their neighbors were doing, people expressed concern.

This is no different than how the Iraqis feel about the future of their country.

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It is also worth noting that there are all sorts of jobs in Iraq today that simply did not exist before the overthrow of Saddam. The proliferation of media is an obvious example: there are no fewer than 10 commercial television stations, 50 radio stations and 100 independent newspapers and magazines now up and running. Obviously this is more important as an indicator of free speech — but it also opens up a small labor force that did not exist before. The same is true for theaters and production companies hiring actors and actresses, and paying them well. To take one small example: salaries for actors and actresses in television have increased from U.S. $200 for a 30-episode series to nearly $800.

Yeah, right, things seem really horrible.

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Today 74 percent of Iraqis say that schools have improved since Saddam Hussein's time; this appears in part a reflection of their happiness that Saddam himself no longer dominates the texts. But teachers are also better paid, and many schools have been spruced up with the help of reconstruction funds.

Nobody is saying thing in Iraq are great, but it's apparently not as bad as your "misleading" paragraph states either.

[kallend 2,027]

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Iraqis are far more optimistic about their individual circumstances than when we last asked these questions; seven in 10 now say their lives are going well, and two in three believe things will improve in the coming year.

Such optimism covers nearly the entire range of living conditions — significant improvements are seen in medical care, water quality and even in terms of security. This last finding was perhaps most striking: six in 10 Iraqis now say they feel safe in their neighborhoods. The only real exceptions to this optimism in our quality-of-life metrics involve electricity and the availability of jobs.

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Yet there are ample reasons for optimism: The burgeoning commerce that now touches nearly all corners of the country; an economy growing, thanks in part to the high price of oil; per-capita income up 60 percent, to $263 per month; improvements in health care and education; and the widely held belief that next week's elections will make a positive difference. Seventy-six percent of Iraqis told us they were "confident" the elections would produce a "stable government" — and despite the sectarian divisions, few Iraqis express concern about civil war.

What a blatantly biased view you try to present. Anybody reading the entire article will not come away with the doom and gloom you posted. It seems to me that this is similar to polls done a few years ago in the US. When asked about how people were doing personally, the response was "great!" When asked how their neighbors were doing, people expressed concern.

This is no different than how the Iraqis feel about the future of their country.

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It is also worth noting that there are all sorts of jobs in Iraq today that simply did not exist before the overthrow of Saddam. The proliferation of media is an obvious example: there are no fewer than 10 commercial television stations, 50 radio stations and 100 independent newspapers and magazines now up and running. Obviously this is more important as an indicator of free speech — but it also opens up a small labor force that did not exist before. The same is true for theaters and production companies hiring actors and actresses, and paying them well. To take one small example: salaries for actors and actresses in television have increased from U.S. $200 for a 30-episode series to nearly $800.

Yeah, right, things seem really horrible.

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Today 74 percent of Iraqis say that schools have improved since Saddam Hussein's time; this appears in part a reflection of their happiness that Saddam himself no longer dominates the texts. But teachers are also better paid, and many schools have been spruced up with the help of reconstruction funds.

Nobody is saying thing in Iraq are great, but it's apparently not as bad as your "misleading" paragraph states either.

You are the one presenting the biased viewpoint. A majority of Iraqis want us out and think things are worse now. A guy who lives in a nice white mansion in DC thinks otherwise and you think he's the cat's meow.

I wonder if the families of the 30k dead think things are better.

The new Bush doctrine is invade if we don't like them, even if they are NOT a threat and have NO WMDs. You like that?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Of course they want the US to leave. Who wouldn't?

If you would take the time to read the entire article, it would become abundantly clear that as conditions improve in Iraq, which they most certainly have, thre will be a greater desire for the US to leave. But to claim conditions in Iraq are horrible, or that Iraqi's aren't optomistic smacks of a mentality straight from the Democratic Underground or some other nonsensical left-wing rubbish. All of which is below you.

Here's another article from ABC News that presents quite a different scenario than the one you presented.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/PollVault/story?id=1389228

[kallend 2,027]

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Of course they want the US to leave. Who wouldn't?

Bush, Cheney.


From the link you provided:

Other views, moreover, are more negative: Fewer than half, 46 percent, say the country is better off now than it was before the war. And half of Iraqis now say it was wrong for U.S.-led forces to invade in spring 2003, up from 39 percent in 2004.

The number of Iraqis who say things are going well in their country overall is just 44 percent, far fewer than the 71 percent who say their own lives are going well. Fifty-two percent instead say the country is doing badly.

There's other evidence of the United States' increasing unpopularity: Two-thirds now oppose the presence of U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, 14 points higher than in February 2004. Nearly six in 10 disapprove of how the United States has operated in Iraq since the war, and most of them disapprove strongly. And nearly half of Iraqis would like to see U.S. forces leave soon.

Specifically, 26 percent of Iraqis say U.S. and other coalition forces should "leave now" and another 19 percent say they should go after the government chosen in this week's election takes office; that adds to 45 percent. Roughly the other half says coalition forces should remain until security is restored (31 percent), until Iraqi security forces can operate independently (16 percent), or longer (5 percent).

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Could you knock it off with the red type? It reminds me of the apt. I used to have in DC above a bar.

Nothng new in the paragraphs you quoted I haven't said already. Over 70 say their lives are better since the US invasion, but they worry about the country. Pretty normal. US pollsters get the same phenomenon when they aske people about the economy. Try reading the whole article instead of just skimming for the negative parts.

[rushmc 23]

Your post seems to indicate that the allied forces killed all 30,000..........

That is quite misleading .....don't you think?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,991]

>Your post seems to indicate that the allied forces killed all 30,000..........

Where do you get that? Had the post said "Bush admits to killing 30,000 Iraqis" then that might make sense. As it is, it's pretty clear that the _war_ killed 30,000 Iraqis, including Iraqis intentionally killed by the US, unintentionally killed by the US, and intentionally and unintentionally killed by the Iraqis and insurgents. Heck, go to www.iraqbodycount.org, a site that is regularly attacked by right-wingers. You'll note that they explicitly state "Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq" and that their number closely matches Bush's.

[kallend 2,027]

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Your post seems to indicate that the allied forces killed all 30,000..........

That is quite misleading .....don't you think?

Bush misled a reporter? Say it ain't so.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[markd_nscr986 0]

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President Bush said Monday while acknowledging more than 30,000 Iraqis have been killed since the U.S.-led invasion nearly three years ago.

30K?
Probably much less than Saddam accounted for in a
years' time

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

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[kallend 2,027]

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Could you knock it off with the red type? It reminds me of the apt. I used to have in DC above a bar.

Nothng new in the paragraphs you quoted I haven't said already. Over 70 say their lives are better since the US invasion, but they worry about the country. Pretty normal. US pollsters get the same phenomenon when they aske people about the economy. Try reading the whole article instead of just skimming for the negative parts.

Maybe you'd get this in a poll of US people too:


There's other evidence of the United States' increasing unpopularity: Two-thirds now oppose the presence of U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, 14 points higher than in February 2004. Nearly six in 10 disapprove of how the United States has operated in Iraq since the war, and most of them disapprove strongly.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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>Your post seems to indicate that the allied forces killed all 30,000..........

Where do you get that? Had the post said "Bush admits to killing 30,000 Iraqis" then that might make sense. As it is, it's pretty clear that the _war_ killed 30,000 Iraqis, including Iraqis intentionally killed by the US, unintentionally killed by the US, and intentionally and unintentionally killed by the Iraqis and insurgents. Heck, go to www.iraqbodycount.org, a site that is regularly attacked by right-wingers. You'll note that they explicitly state "Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq" and that their number closely matches Bush's.

Bush said, and this is from the original post "President Bush said Monday while acknowledging more than 30,000 Iraqis have been killed since the U.S.-led invasion nearly three years ago"

But, I guess you can read that the US killed 30,000

I am not saying the number isn't sad, bad or deplorable but, he did not say that US forces killed 30,000 . The fact is a large number of those killed have been killed by the insurgants so. kallend's post is very misleading but I am not surprised, as you get your technique from your primary news sources..........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,991]

>Bush said, and this is from the original post "President Bush
>said Monday while acknowledging more than 30,000 Iraqis have
> been killed since the U.S.-led invasion nearly three years ago"

>But, I guess you can read that the US killed 30,000.

You must have a screen there that shows you what you imagine other people are writing. It turns "30,000 civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq" into "The US killed 30,000 people." Must make it easier to debate people!

[rushmc 23]

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Could you knock it off with the red type? It reminds me of the apt. I used to have in DC above a bar.

Nothng new in the paragraphs you quoted I haven't said already. Over 70 say their lives are better since the US invasion, but they worry about the country. Pretty normal. US pollsters get the same phenomenon when they aske people about the economy. Try reading the whole article instead of just skimming for the negative parts.

Maybe you'd get this in a poll of US people too:


There's other evidence of the United States' increasing unpopularity: Two-thirds now oppose the presence of U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, 14 points higher than in February 2004. Nearly six in 10 disapprove of how the United States has operated in Iraq since the war, and most of them disapprove strongly.

Post up the link to this poll. (not the news article) Harris or another. When you look at polls this skewed the demographics of those polls shows why the numbers are what they are..... I think you may have gone back a little or went to a moveon.org poll

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jeiber 0]

I'm interested in knowing how that number is broken down:

How many enemy combatants were killed during the invasion?
How many insurgents were killed after the invasion?
How many civilians were accidentally killed by US/Allies during the invasion?
How many civilians were accidentally killed by US/Allies after invasion?
How many civilians were killed by insurgent attacks/bombings/kidnappings?

Then again.... who cares, it's easier to hop on the 'Bush hating bandwagon' and make assumptions to support your view.

In regards to polls about Iraqi's wanting us out of there, I have one word: DUH! of course they do. It's a loaded question - of course they want us gone, but I would imagine they want us gone when we're done cleaning up hostiles and rebuilding, they don't want us gone before the country stabilizes a little more.

Here's an interesting article about Afghanistan. I bet a few years ago, they felt the way the Iraqi's do today. Now look at the results!

More than three-fourths of the people living in Afghanistan say living conditions, security from crime and freedom of expression have improved from the days when they were living under Taliban rule

Almost nine in 10 _ 87 percent _ say the U.S.-led overthrow of the Taliban in 2001 was a good thing

The optimism comes in a country where people say by a 2-1 margin that their own economic situation is bad

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/07/AR2005120702039.html

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Bush also said that he would do it again DESPITE there being no evidence of WMDs or that Iraq was an actual threat.

I think that supports what we've been saying all along. Saddam needed to be removed from power for many reasons, not just one or two.... (see link below) You keep using this false premise to support a conclusion that you insist is true. The logical construct of your argument is flawed, but you always fall back on the 'no WMD's found = lie' view.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1967350#1967350

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[rushmc 23]

You want to play post the poll?

OK, lets go a pollin....

http://abcnews.go.com/International/PollVault/story?id=1389228

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

How about another.

This one shows when the "other" side starts to defend themselves the public comes back fast that it (went) left.....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177333,00.html

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dropoutdave 0]

Dont panic people, Bush has an exit strategy and it's his best one yet!

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/1032/

------------------------------------------------------
May Contain Nut traces......

[kallend 2,027]

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Could you knock it off with the red type? It reminds me of the apt. I used to have in DC above a bar.

Nothng new in the paragraphs you quoted I haven't said already. Over 70 say their lives are better since the US invasion, but they worry about the country. Pretty normal. US pollsters get the same phenomenon when they aske people about the economy. Try reading the whole article instead of just skimming for the negative parts.

Maybe you'd get this in a poll of US people too:


There's other evidence of the United States' increasing unpopularity: Two-thirds now oppose the presence of U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, 14 points higher than in February 2004. Nearly six in 10 disapprove of how the United States has operated in Iraq since the war, and most of them disapprove strongly.

Post up the link to this poll. (not the news article) Harris or another. When you look at polls this skewed the demographics of those polls shows why the numbers are what they are..... I think you may have gone back a little or went to a moveon.org poll

You'd better ask Gravitymaster - he posted the link I quoted from.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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I'm interested in knowing how that number is broken down:

How many enemy combatants were killed during the invasion?
How many insurgents were killed after the invasion?
How many civilians were accidentally killed by US/Allies during the invasion?
How many civilians were accidentally killed by US/Allies after invasion?
How many civilians were killed by insurgent attacks/bombings/kidnappings?

Ask Bush - it was his statement I quoted. Don't like it, try complaints@whitehouse.gov.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[MooChooser 0]

What makes any of you think that abc news paints an accurate picture of how things are in Iraq anyway?

[kallend 2,027]

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I am not saying the number isn't sad, bad or deplorable but, he did not say that US forces killed 30,000 . The fact is a large number of those killed have been killed by the insurgants so. kallend's post is very misleading but I am not surprised, as you get your technique from your primary news sources..........

Only you seem able to read what I didn't write. Do you hear voices too?

Yes, the number is DEPLORABLE. All the more so since the White House now acknowleges (unlike some who post here) that Iraq neither had forbidden weapons nor did it pose a threat. And, of course, the entire justification for the invasion and subsequent fiasco turned out to be false.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.