Nightingale 0 #1 December 13, 2005 Gov.Schwarznegger denied the clemency plea for Stanley "Tookie" Williams. He's scheduled to be executed at 12:01 am tonight. So, at 12:01 am, California is going to execute a man who has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize five times. He was also nominated for the Nobel Prize in Literature once. He's written numerous children's books encouraging kids to stay out of gangs, and has brokered gang peace treaties from his prison cell. Yes, he committed murders. However, this is a man who has truly turned his life around. Execution serves no purpose at this point and would reinforce the distrust gang members have for the government, undoing a lot of the positive work he's done with the gang members. There's so much more positive work he could do. I am disgusted with California and the governor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
highfly 0 #2 December 13, 2005 Its not all the Californians fault. Dont forget who pulled the trigger.............. www.myspace.com/durtymac Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 December 13, 2005 So if you kill people with out a care, create a violent street gang that is now responsible for hundreds of deaths but you go "oops, sorry, I'm really really sorry now" then your punishment should be let go and everyone should hug, huh?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #4 December 13, 2005 And he wonders why his constituents aren't happy with him anymore. I agree with you Kris, this is a travesty. This is what happens when we elect our leaders solely for their celebrity.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #5 December 13, 2005 Just because someone atones for the wrong they've done does not mean that person gets a free pass as to the consequences of their actions. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #6 December 13, 2005 Nobel nominations aren't a valid attestment of one's character, IMHO. Hell, even winning the Nobel Peace price doesn't really hold a lot of water with me. That being said, I'm no fan of our governor, but in this case, he's doing his job: faithfully executing the law. I vehemently disagree with capital punishment, but it's not the place of the governor to rewrite or sidestep the law; his job is to execute it. His office has reviewed the case and has determined that the court system has handled the case properly according to the law, so even though I'd much rather see death sentences go the way of the dodo, I don't fault Schwarzenegger in his decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #7 December 13, 2005 Quote. . . who has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize five times. He was also nominated for the Nobel Prize in Literature once. None of which has to do with Williams, and all of which has to do with bringing Death Penalty law into the limelight. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
highfly 0 #8 December 13, 2005 Its not the first time that a celebrity got voted in and done his job incorrectly (according to the voters). www.myspace.com/durtymac Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #9 December 13, 2005 I'm not saying he should get a free pass. Clemency is not the same as a pardon. Clemency means he gets life in prison instead. I think the death penalty is wrong in every situation. However, I think that with everything Tookie has done to reform his life, it's even more despicable. To respond to a PM: Most of us who believe clemency should be granted base it on our belief that the death penalty is wrong. What you're hearing is the reasons why this execution is even MORE wrong. We figure you've heard the other arguments before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #10 December 13, 2005 If it isn't the governor's place to grant clemency, we wouldn't have a clemency procedure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FireMedicJumper 0 #11 December 13, 2005 The biggest travesty in the Tookie Williams case is that he was allowed to live on death row for the past 26 years. That is absolutely no justice to the four people who he brutally murdered. He should have been executed years ago and saved the taxpayers the money it cost to keep him alive, and freed up a slot on death row for some other butcher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #12 December 13, 2005 I wonder if he might have been granted clemency if all of his followers hadn't threatened to riot. The fact that the threat was made has polarized a lot of people, and I can't imagine the governor granting clemency in that situation. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #13 December 13, 2005 He's been nominated, yes. That pretty much means nothing. Nominations are more than common place. He's never admited guilt for his proven involvement in the truley barbaric and violent murders. I've got no problem with his passing. Why should the governor stand against the decisions made by judge, jury, and the Supreme Court of California? I think you're buying into the propaganda being slung by special interest groups. A large percentage of people don't just don't care.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #14 December 13, 2005 Hey Dave, he's never even admitted guilt.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #15 December 13, 2005 >Why should the governor stand against the decisions made by judge, > jury, and the Supreme Court of California? Cause it's his job to do that when the situation warrants it. Had other governors done their jobs a bit better, several innocent men would now be alive. (Not saying this guy is innocent, just that a governor is entitled to decide on his own what should happen in such cases.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #16 December 13, 2005 He should grant clemency because the death penalty is wrong. State sanctioned murder is still murder. Since I started law school, I've learned enough about the legal system to know that there's wrongful convictions fairly often. Just because a jury finds someone guilty doesn't mean they really are. That's one of the main reasons why I'm against the death penalty. It's disgusting that people "just don't care." When you've read the reports of the 121 people who have been released from death row because their convictions have been overturned, it's hard not to care. When you've read the stories of the innocent men who have been executed and heard Sister Helen Prejean talk about them, it's harder not to care. Once you've talked to a family member of someone who was proven innocent by DNA testing after being on death row, not caring is damned near impossible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
highfly 0 #17 December 13, 2005 QuoteState sanctioned murder is still murder. So why dont the executioners get the chair for what they have done? www.myspace.com/durtymac Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #18 December 13, 2005 QuoteHe should grant clemency because the death penalty is wrong. State sanctioned murder is still murder. Since I started law school, I've learned enough about the legal system to know that there's wrongful convictions fairly often. Just because a jury finds someone guilty doesn't mean they really are. That's one of the main reasons why I'm against the death penalty. It's disgusting that people "just don't care." When you've read the reports of the 121 people who have been released from death row because their convictions have been overturned, it's hard not to care. When you've read the stories of the innocent men who have been executed and heard Sister Helen Prejean talk about them, it's harder not to care. Once you've talked to a family member of someone who was proven innocent by DNA testing after being on death row, not caring is damned near impossible. A lot of people who haven't been to law school are against the death penalty as well. Mostly because everyone knows by now that there are so many people under death sentences who never committed the crimes they were convicted of. I'm against the death penalty in general and would like to see it eliminated across the board. But I'm not morally opposed to the concept of a death penalty, only to the fact that it's impossible to have a death penalty without it's being abused in the real world. I don't feel sorry for Tookie Williams or anyone else on death row - only the ones who don't belong there at all because they didn't commit the crime. I think life without parole is a more frightening penalty, if it were me I'd rather be put to death than grow old and frail in a cage. One of the women from the Manson family said it was easier living with the death sentence she'd received (before it was reversed in 1972) than it has been ever since to live with the guilt of what she's done. She'd looked forward to dying so she wouldn't have to deal with her guilt, now she has to deal with it every day all her life. I'd like to see the death penalty go away because it doesn't work, because innocent people are executed, because it doesn't give the families of victims any peace (in their own words). There may be some real issues of cruel and unusual punishment involved with living under a death sentence for a quarter century, I don't think I could take that kind of stress without losing my mind. I don't feel sorry for Tookie Williams though. If he were commuted to life, the next step would be a star studded campaign to "free Tookie". Bullshit. The governor's just doing his job, the nastiest part of his job. I don't care if Tookie dies, but I'd like to see the death penalty done away with once & for all, if that's contradictory it makes sense to me. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #19 December 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteState sanctioned murder is still murder. So why dont the executioners get the chair for what they have done? Because something can be legally proper but still ethically wrong. Just because the law allows you to do something does not mean that you SHOULD do it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #20 December 13, 2005 QuoteHe should grant clemency because the death penalty is wrong. State sanctioned murder is still murder. But it is the law. And if it's ever going to imposed, it better be when the crimes are as cold blooded and heinous as the Williams murders were. In spite of all that, I think he would have had a good chance for clemency if he had only owned up to his crimes and expressed some remorse. Without that, letting him slide would just be a spit in the face of his victims' loved ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #21 December 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteState sanctioned murder is still murder. No it isn't. Murder is defined as unlawful killing, you know that. Executions, cops shooting criminals, soldiers killing their enemies may be murder in the heart and soul ( a lot of veterans say that war is nothing but cold blooded murder and I believe them). But it's not unlawful, so it ain't murder. Period. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #22 December 13, 2005 Schwarzenegger is doing what the law says to do. if you (or anyone) is against the death penalty, then lobby the legislature and do something. Tookie may have been nominated for the peace and liturature prizes, but he was nominated in part because of the anti death penalty position, not because he deserves it. Can he do more good? Perhaps...but it will not erase what he did do, and is currently incarcerated for. I'm sorry you're angry, Kris...use your education to do what others can't...lobby those who can change the law. But if there was ever a person who was neither deserving of clemency nor innocent of the crime, Tookie is it. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #23 December 13, 2005 I think there's more positive work this pillar of society could do, too--- such as apologize to the families of the people whose lives he took, and be an example by responsibly and humbly facing the legal consequences of his crimes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #24 December 13, 2005 QuoteIt's disgusting that people "just don't care." *** It's true the system isn't perfect. But in this case, several credible witnesses and undeniable forensic evidence PROVES that he callously and with malice aforethought took the LIVES of FOUR innocent people...Human Beings. People with families that loved them and cared about them and depended on them, people with hopes and dreams and goals of their own for a fulfilling future and a long life. I wonder if any of them, or their kids or their grand kids...may have actually won the Nobel prize for doing something like curing cancer, and done so without having to try to make amends for a vicious act against society...Guess we'll never know. There is no 'I've changed' when it comes to Murder, Say that to yourself a few times MURDER... Four productive members of the clan are rotting in a box because of this guy... You kill someone...we'll kill ya back... It's right there in the rule book, you wanna play the game on that level...that is the consequence. Period. No 'Do Overs' ~No 'Mulligans' 12:01 we thin the heard by one, for the betterment of all, and no I don't care. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #25 December 13, 2005 Killing him will not erase his crime either. Keep him in jail and keep him around a bit longer, he might do some more good. Killing him accomplishes nothing. Whether he is guilty or not, and whether he deserves it or not, the death penalty is the wrong thing to do. Yes, he probably murdered people. However, that does not make it right for the state to murder him. The law allows Schwarzenegger to grant clemency. it's at his discretion. The law doesn't tell him one way or the other. He can grant clemency if he wants to. In the minimal amount of spare time that law school allows me, I do what I can to work for the abolition of the death penalty. With regards to lobbying the legislature, I'm sure they're already quite sick of hearing from me, and the staff of my senators and congressman know my voice on the phone without my even needing to state my name. i have binders full of responses to letters I've written both to politicians from my area and those outside it. I'm a member of the Los Angeles chapter of Death Penalty Focus. Two other students and I are in the process of trying to lobby the law school's student bar association to allow us to begin a chapter of Project Innocence. That's really all I have time for at the moment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 1 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Michele 1 #22 December 13, 2005 Schwarzenegger is doing what the law says to do. if you (or anyone) is against the death penalty, then lobby the legislature and do something. Tookie may have been nominated for the peace and liturature prizes, but he was nominated in part because of the anti death penalty position, not because he deserves it. Can he do more good? Perhaps...but it will not erase what he did do, and is currently incarcerated for. I'm sorry you're angry, Kris...use your education to do what others can't...lobby those who can change the law. But if there was ever a person who was neither deserving of clemency nor innocent of the crime, Tookie is it. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #23 December 13, 2005 I think there's more positive work this pillar of society could do, too--- such as apologize to the families of the people whose lives he took, and be an example by responsibly and humbly facing the legal consequences of his crimes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #24 December 13, 2005 QuoteIt's disgusting that people "just don't care." *** It's true the system isn't perfect. But in this case, several credible witnesses and undeniable forensic evidence PROVES that he callously and with malice aforethought took the LIVES of FOUR innocent people...Human Beings. People with families that loved them and cared about them and depended on them, people with hopes and dreams and goals of their own for a fulfilling future and a long life. I wonder if any of them, or their kids or their grand kids...may have actually won the Nobel prize for doing something like curing cancer, and done so without having to try to make amends for a vicious act against society...Guess we'll never know. There is no 'I've changed' when it comes to Murder, Say that to yourself a few times MURDER... Four productive members of the clan are rotting in a box because of this guy... You kill someone...we'll kill ya back... It's right there in the rule book, you wanna play the game on that level...that is the consequence. Period. No 'Do Overs' ~No 'Mulligans' 12:01 we thin the heard by one, for the betterment of all, and no I don't care. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #25 December 13, 2005 Killing him will not erase his crime either. Keep him in jail and keep him around a bit longer, he might do some more good. Killing him accomplishes nothing. Whether he is guilty or not, and whether he deserves it or not, the death penalty is the wrong thing to do. Yes, he probably murdered people. However, that does not make it right for the state to murder him. The law allows Schwarzenegger to grant clemency. it's at his discretion. The law doesn't tell him one way or the other. He can grant clemency if he wants to. In the minimal amount of spare time that law school allows me, I do what I can to work for the abolition of the death penalty. With regards to lobbying the legislature, I'm sure they're already quite sick of hearing from me, and the staff of my senators and congressman know my voice on the phone without my even needing to state my name. i have binders full of responses to letters I've written both to politicians from my area and those outside it. I'm a member of the Los Angeles chapter of Death Penalty Focus. Two other students and I are in the process of trying to lobby the law school's student bar association to allow us to begin a chapter of Project Innocence. That's really all I have time for at the moment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
