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Darius11

To my Christen friends I have a question.

By Darius11, in Speakers Corner

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Darius11    12

Darius11
Can you please help me?
If I remember correctly Jesus believed in peace.

Christians were told to turn the other cheek if they are slapped. Obviously it means to be peaceful and not fight. There is more honor in walking away and letting God handle it.

Am I wrong to think that?

And if you are christen can you support a war? I understand that we had the crusades but religion often gets used for political gain.

I mean the essence of Christianity Real Christianity is anti war right?


I hear people say what would Jesus do? So would Jesus go to war or would he turn the other cheek?



I won't be back until tomorrow but would appreciate any input.:)Thank you
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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Darius11    12

Darius11
You know I have deep belief in God, but when it comes to organized religion I don’t like any of them.
When a man can tell another man what to think and what to do the room for abuse is too much for me.

Religion is you and your soul. You are your church. IOP
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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Muenkel    0

Muenkel
You ask an extemely fair question. In essence I believe Jesus would not support the concept of war, violence, man's inhumanity to man, selfishness, greed, etc. Unfortunately, mankind have inclinations to sin. We have a free will given to us by God. Some people wonder why God gave us a free will and didn't just create us with only the ability to love him and one another. The reason he gave us a free will is so we can choose to love Him. If you force someone to love you, how genuine is that? Wouldn't anyone prefer that someone love them because they chose to love them?

I know it seems like I'm off on a tangent, but it brings me to your question as to what Jesus would do in today's circumstances. I cannot speak for Jesus, so I'll speak for my faith. While any kind of violence or selfishness is intrinsically wrong, there is still such a thing as a 'just' war. Since each person has their own free will, many have chosen to be selfish, greedy, inhumane, violent, etc. When I speak about a 'just' war, I'm referring to what is the greater good. In the issue of Iraq, the reason it has been so devisive I believe is because we invaded a sovereign nation and many innocents died in the process. The other side says we invaded and stopped the cruelty and heinous crimes of a viscious dictator. We are bringing democracy to a country that has had no freedom.

So, because of our free will, we have violence and then we have charity. We've been bombarded with images of car bombs and war on the TV. But we have also seen schools built and soldiers giving candy to young Iraqi children. We've seen Iraqi women vote for the first time.

Take a look at 9/11. Many people would ask where Jesus was that day. I believe He was working side by side with the countless heroes that day. 9/11 demonstrated the worst that free will can do and it also showed the best it can do. You see the difference? There were the ones who chose to hate and the ones who chose to love.

I don't know if I really answered your question. I'm not sure it can be fully answered. I'm sure though you will get answers that are much more intelligent than mine.

Great question and thread though.

Chris



_________________________________________
Chris






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micro    0

micro
Quote

Can you please help me?
If I remember correctly Jesus believed in peace.

Christians were told to turn the other cheek if they are slapped. Obviously it means to be peaceful and not fight. There is more honor in walking away and letting God handle it.

Am I wrong to think that?

And if you are christen can you support a war? I understand that we had the crusades but religion often gets used for political gain.

I mean the essence of Christianity Real Christianity is anti war right?


I hear people say what would Jesus do? So would Jesus go to war or would he turn the other cheek?



I won't be back until tomorrow but would appreciate any input.:)Thank you



can't type much now... but there's the whole "just war" theory... and support for it in scripture... however, the greater good, IMO of reading scripture, and I certainly fall very short of this, is it is better to turn the cheek... and then expel a little gas... ;)

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

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SpeedRacer    1

SpeedRacer
well, it's complicated.:P


I could just wave my arms & bullshit here about oh, it depends on the situation bla bla bla.

But first of all
1) Any religion always gets filtered thru the believer. People will often put a spin on it this way or that

and
2) Jesus said some things that people have a hard time doing. Such as "Love your enemy" An interesting concept but hard to do, really, for most people. It even seems an offensive concept to some, as if you're being weak. But the line is right there in the Bible, but most people, Christians included, have a real tough time with that one.

Jesus once said to a disciple, "Get behind me! You are thinking as men do, not as God does!"

As we are humans, it is difficult to break out of the traps we put ourselves in. But anyone, religious or not, can see plenty of examples where people have TRAPPED themselves in an endless series of vendetta for vendetta, simply because they won't break out of the normal human way of doing things, even though it is resulting in more suffering for everyone on both sides.

One of the things that Jesus did was to snap us out of that rigid mindset. And if you do this in an intelligent manner, you can make FAR more of a positive difference than you ever could by sticking with the human/animal way, & continuing to just lash back at your enemy because, oh my, I don't wanna be seen as weak right? Best to continue running in circles.

I think this concept, when applied, also has to be applied in a thoughtful manner. Jesus also warned his disciples, when they were going out to preach, to be "gentle as doves & wise as serpents." He knew that it was a rough world out there, & you still gotta be careful.

so somehow, when we make our way through this world, we gotta watch our ass, but we also need to transcend the mundane human way of doing things, & strive for higher ideals.

Vengeance is the devil's bread.
Speed Racer
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rickjump1    0

rickjump1
Quote

well, it's complicated.:P


I could just wave my arms & bullshit here about oh, it depends on the situation bla bla bla.

But first of all
1) Any religion always gets filtered thru the believer. People will often put a spin on it this way or that

and
2) Jesus said some things that people have a hard time doing. Such as "Love your enemy" An interesting concept but hard to do, really, for most people. It even seems an offensive concept to some, as if you're being weak. But the line is right there in the Bible, but most people, Christians included, have a real tough time with that one.

Jesus once said to a disciple, "Get behind me! You are thinking as men do, not as God does!"

As we are humans, it is difficult to break out of the traps we put ourselves in. But anyone, religious or not, can see plenty of examples where people have TRAPPED themselves in an endless series of vendetta for vendetta, simply because they won't break out of the normal human way of doing things, even though it is resulting in more suffering for everyone on both sides.

One of the things that Jesus did was to snap us out of that rigid mindset. And if you do this in an intelligent manner, you can make FAR more of a positive difference than you ever could by sticking with the human/animal way, & continuing to just lash back at your enemy because, oh my, I don't wanna be seen as weak right? Best to continue running in circles.

I think this concept, when applied, also has to be applied in a thoughtful manner. Jesus also warned his disciples, when they were going out to preach, to be "gentle as doves & wise as serpents." He knew that it was a rough world out there, & you still gotta be careful.

so somehow, when we make our way through this world, we gotta watch our ass, but we also need to transcend the mundane human way of doing things, & strive for higher ideals.

Vengeance is the devil's bread.

Nice.
Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

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Dolph    0

Dolph
Quote

You ask an extemely fair question. In essence I believe Jesus would not support the concept of war, violence, man's inhumanity to man, selfishness, greed, etc. Unfortunately, mankind have inclinations to sin. We have a free will given to us by God. Some people wonder why God gave us a free will and didn't just create us with only the ability to love him and one another. The reason he gave us a free will is so we can choose to love Him. If you force someone to love you, how genuine is that? Wouldn't anyone prefer that someone love them because they chose to love them?



Dude, if the price for finding out if someone loves me or not (or even creating the possibility for them to have the choice) is massive suffering, I dunno, I probably would say "it's not that big a deal"-

It is hard to believe that a powerful entntity such as the Christian God had not the foresight to understand the consequences of free will. As such, someone less declined to see only positive values in God could make the argument that he is a selfish bastard.

"B-b-b-ut I want you to CHOOSE to love me, even if it means you'll run around skinning each other and killing at will. I WANT I WANT I WANT it this way!"

Now it seems far fetched to me to think that a deity as powerful as the Christian God would have such a human trait to such a degree - or any human traits whatsoever. So, as far as the Christian God is concerned, I'll give the dude-entity the benefit of the doubt. I'll say that there are probably other more compelling reasons free will is part of the deal. Such as "hey, now you can fuck up as much as ya want. I'm here if ya need me, but go ahead, put fire to your neighbors house. In case it doesn't catch fire easily - I placed some dinosaur bones and some sticky black goo in the ground you can refine. That'll help the blaze. Oh, and there's water too, in case you change your mind.Pretty clever, eh ".

The Greater Goood argument is absolutely worthless if, well, you're not part of the Greater Good. If you're part of the minority who has to be sacrificed for the greater Good, I pretty much thinkk you'd be inclined to view the Greater Good as something Greater Evil.

Having said all that:


Quote

9/11 demonstrated the worst that free will can do and it also showed the best it can do. You see the difference? There were the ones who chose to hate and the ones who chose to love.



Which is spot on regardless of God, gods, god, Gods religion and free will.

One just have to be careful with love. You may love virtue and hate sin. Then we enter the age old definition game. To Islam extremeists, their love for God and all things righteous makes 9/11 an act of love, not hatred - love for God, for his righteousness, for virtue. I'd call it tainted love, if love at all, but to be sure, many Christians hate sin with a passion.

For me in essence it boils down to: if someone else uses their free will in a way that threaten me or my loved ones, I shall use my free will in an attempt to remove the threat. The exercise of free will in such a case will be dependent on circumstances and violence cannot be excluded.

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Muenkel    0

Muenkel
Quote

You ask an extemely fair question. In essence I believe Jesus would not support the concept of war, violence, man's inhumanity to man, selfishness, greed, etc. Unfortunately, mankind have inclinations to sin. We have a free will given to us by God. Some people wonder why God gave us a free will and didn't just create us with only the ability to love him and one another. The reason he gave us a free will is so we can choose to love Him. If you force someone to love you, how genuine is that? Wouldn't anyone prefer that someone love them because they chose to love them?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dude, if the price for finding out if someone loves me or not (or even creating the possibility for them to have the choice) is massive suffering, I dunno, I probably would say "it's not that big a deal"-

It is hard to believe that a powerful entntity such as the Christian God had not the foresight to understand the consequences of free will. As such, someone less declined to see only positive values in God could make the argument that he is a selfish bastard.

"B-b-b-ut I want you to CHOOSE to love me, even if it means you'll run around skinning each other and killing at will. I WANT I WANT I WANT it this way!"

Now it seems far fetched to me to think that a deity as powerful as the Christian God would have such a human trait to such a degree - or any human traits whatsoever. So, as far as the Christian God is concerned, I'll give the dude-entity the benefit of the doubt. I'll say that there are probably other more compelling reasons free will is part of the deal. Such as "hey, now you can fuck up as much as ya want. I'm here if ya need me, but go ahead, put fire to your neighbors house. In case it doesn't catch fire easily - I placed some dinosaur bones and some sticky black goo in the ground you can refine. That'll help the blaze. Oh, and there's water too, in case you change your mind.Pretty clever, eh ".

The Greater Goood argument is absolutely worthless if, well, you're not part of the Greater Good. If you're part of the minority who has to be sacrificed for the greater Good, I pretty much thinkk you'd be inclined to view the Greater Good as something Greater Evil.

Having said all that:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


9/11 demonstrated the worst that free will can do and it also showed the best it can do. You see the difference? There were the ones who chose to hate and the ones who chose to love.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Which is spot on regardless of God, gods, god, Gods religion and free will.

One just have to be careful with love. You may love virtue and hate sin. Then we enter the age old definition game. To Islam extremeists, their love for God and all things righteous makes 9/11 an act of love, not hatred - love for God, for his righteousness, for virtue. I'd call it tainted love, if love at all, but to be sure, many Christians hate sin with a passion.

For me in essence it boils down to: if someone else uses their free will in a way that threaten me or my loved ones, I shall use my free will in an attempt to remove the threat. The exercise of free will in such a case will be dependent on circumstances and violence cannot be excluded.

"The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains." - Cicero, 45BC



Hey, I just answered Darius' honest question to the best of my ability. I didn't expect everyone to agree. Sorry you don't see the beauty in the gift of Free Will.

Chris



_________________________________________
Chris






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SpeedRacer    1

SpeedRacer
Free will is Free will. We all have it, regardless of our particular religious decisions.

Decide what you will. Walk your own path.

However, you might wanna study history & see what happened to those who went against which path.
:P
Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

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