chadkal 0 #26 December 20, 2005 I believe that the celebrating of Christ's birth of the 25th of Dec. is strictly for the purpose of money. There needed to be a holiday in the winter to get people to go out and spend lots of money. Christmas has become so comercial and is all about the money. It is truely sad that what should be a celebration of the birth of my savior has turned into the worship of money. A time of greed and debt. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #27 December 20, 2005 Good theory but it's been on the 25/12 for longer than the commerical version..... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #28 December 20, 2005 I think that it would be wonderful if we could seperate the dates of the pagan holidays and the christian holidays so as not to cause so much confusion. Then we would not be forced into the recognition of holidays we did not wish to participate in. However you and I know that will never happen, because Christmas sells. And it is all about the almighty dollar. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #29 December 20, 2005 I disagree. It has always been about the money,........it has just gotten worse over the years, and contiues to digress -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #30 December 20, 2005 QuoteI disagree. It has always been about the money,........ Someone is having a little trouble with history. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #31 December 20, 2005 Originally, it was more about toeing the Church line... the new religion (Money) is surely relatively new (because untill very recently... not many people had much). (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #32 December 20, 2005 QuoteI believe that the celebrating of Christ's birth of the 25th of Dec. is strictly for the purpose of money. There needed to be a holiday in the winter to get people to go out and spend lots of money. Christmas has become so comercial and is all about the money. It is truely sad that what should be a celebration of the birth of my savior has turned into the worship of money. A time of greed and debt. Good businessmen/women capitalize on opportunities. The reason Xmas is so commercialized is because people do most of their spending at that time of the year. btw - Athiest and we celebrate Xmas every year. Our families are all over the place and abroad. It is the time of year we all get together and slow down and reflect and spend time together. Xmas is that time because of the time off and such. If we didn't have a holiday week called Xmas, we would have to make something else up to ensure that we could spend time together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #33 December 20, 2005 I am not Jewish. I have celebrated Hanukkah. I have been to my friend's parent's house to enjoy the festivities. Latkes rule!Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #34 December 20, 2005 QuoteI believe that the celebrating of Christ's birth of the 25th of Dec. is strictly for the purpose of money. /reply] WHAT?! Look up WHY Christmas was put on the 25th. It has nothing to do with selling stuff.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #35 December 20, 2005 QuoteOf course you don't agree....but in doing those practices, you are inadvertantly acknowledging Christ's birth, and acknowledgment is celebrating it. Not so. I acknowledge that the twin towers collapsed - I dont celibrate it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,108 #36 December 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteI believe that the celebrating of Christ's birth of the 25th of Dec. is strictly for the purpose of money. /reply] WHAT?! Look up WHY Christmas was put on the 25th. It has nothing to do with selling stuff. In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday. The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident. After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870. ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,108 #37 December 20, 2005 Quote WHAT?! Look up WHY Christmas was put on the 25th. It has nothing to do with selling stuff. Could it possibly be that the Roman festival "Saturnalia" was on 25th December?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #38 December 20, 2005 Quote After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870. So, what you are saying is that if you REALLY want to be conservative (that is, keep things the way they were), you should be fighting AGAINST Christmas. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chadkal 0 #39 December 20, 2005 I am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,108 #40 December 20, 2005 QuoteI am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Why don't you look it up instead of guessing? Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #41 December 20, 2005 QuoteI am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Seriously. You are wrong. It was put on the 25th MANY years before commercialism as we know or Black Friday was invented.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AlexCrowley 0 #42 December 20, 2005 nice one! TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnnyD 0 #43 December 20, 2005 QuoteI truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Then why not make a stand and call off your personal Xmas outside of attending mass? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chadkal 0 #44 December 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteI am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Why don't you look it up instead of guessing? Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. I am aware of this, and I do agree with you, however I believe that there was money to be made by "absorbing" the pagan festival. I also beleive that "our" Christian holiday should be celebrated on a more apropriate day. There has been much debate as to when the birth of Christ occured. But I know that it did not happen in the winter, and I would like to see it moved. However, because of finacial reasons,............that will never happen. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #45 December 20, 2005 Gosh.... if it was all about the money, why did they choose a bank holiday as Christmas day (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #46 December 20, 2005 Christ wasnt born Dec 25th.... Christmas is to celebrate the birth of Santa and to keep retail stores alive... has nothing to do with Christ... Pagans brought "christians" the christmas tree.... santa gives the presents.... the only thing relative to christ is the name...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rocketdog 0 #47 December 21, 2005 QuoteI find it odd that others who are of a different religion (Muslim for example) at my place of work take the christmas period off and are allowed the 'bank holiday' days (christmas day, boxing day etc) as days off, when they then also expect they're own religous 'holidays' as days off - gratis. Is this a common thing? Its a bit like smokers who work on average 8 hours a week less than a non-smoker because of the smoking breaks in their day I guess. WHoA....... I never thought of that!!!! That is bullshit! I guess it's just a bonus for the employees that the corporate offices are closed on Christian holidays. It's a double-edged sword 'cause you can't deny them their religion observances but you can't remain open on X-Mas day for a few people to "make-up". How does that work?!?!?!?!???? ~hollywood see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #48 December 21, 2005 QuoteQuote... Muslim ... take the christmas period off and are allowed the 'bank holiday' days ... also their own religous 'holidays' ... a bit like smokers who work ... 8 hours a week less ... because of the smoking breaks ... WHoA....... I never thought of that!!!! YEP! Persecuted Minorities RULE OK! Mike. Edited to add: Think I'll spend a little of Christmas day lurking here to catch any Christians who choose to play wiff their computers instead of "Celebrating Jesus' Birthday". Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #49 December 21, 2005 Alex: You celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ every day of your life. If you use the calendar which says this is 2005, it is the 2005th year Anno Domini, which is Latin for "In The Year Of Our Lord", and so all time is divided by the birth of Christ. Before his birth, things were registered as B.C. (Before Christ). Keep on celebrating. Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AlexCrowley 0 #50 December 21, 2005 actually I have a disability and no concept of time . Seriously. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. 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RossDagley 0 #35 December 20, 2005 QuoteOf course you don't agree....but in doing those practices, you are inadvertantly acknowledging Christ's birth, and acknowledgment is celebrating it. Not so. I acknowledge that the twin towers collapsed - I dont celibrate it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,108 #36 December 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteI believe that the celebrating of Christ's birth of the 25th of Dec. is strictly for the purpose of money. /reply] WHAT?! Look up WHY Christmas was put on the 25th. It has nothing to do with selling stuff. In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday. The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident. After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870. ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,108 #37 December 20, 2005 Quote WHAT?! Look up WHY Christmas was put on the 25th. It has nothing to do with selling stuff. Could it possibly be that the Roman festival "Saturnalia" was on 25th December?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #38 December 20, 2005 Quote After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870. So, what you are saying is that if you REALLY want to be conservative (that is, keep things the way they were), you should be fighting AGAINST Christmas. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chadkal 0 #39 December 20, 2005 I am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,108 #40 December 20, 2005 QuoteI am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Why don't you look it up instead of guessing? Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #41 December 20, 2005 QuoteI am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Seriously. You are wrong. It was put on the 25th MANY years before commercialism as we know or Black Friday was invented.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AlexCrowley 0 #42 December 20, 2005 nice one! TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnnyD 0 #43 December 20, 2005 QuoteI truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Then why not make a stand and call off your personal Xmas outside of attending mass? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chadkal 0 #44 December 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteI am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Why don't you look it up instead of guessing? Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. I am aware of this, and I do agree with you, however I believe that there was money to be made by "absorbing" the pagan festival. I also beleive that "our" Christian holiday should be celebrated on a more apropriate day. There has been much debate as to when the birth of Christ occured. But I know that it did not happen in the winter, and I would like to see it moved. However, because of finacial reasons,............that will never happen. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #45 December 20, 2005 Gosh.... if it was all about the money, why did they choose a bank holiday as Christmas day (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #46 December 20, 2005 Christ wasnt born Dec 25th.... Christmas is to celebrate the birth of Santa and to keep retail stores alive... has nothing to do with Christ... Pagans brought "christians" the christmas tree.... santa gives the presents.... the only thing relative to christ is the name...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rocketdog 0 #47 December 21, 2005 QuoteI find it odd that others who are of a different religion (Muslim for example) at my place of work take the christmas period off and are allowed the 'bank holiday' days (christmas day, boxing day etc) as days off, when they then also expect they're own religous 'holidays' as days off - gratis. Is this a common thing? Its a bit like smokers who work on average 8 hours a week less than a non-smoker because of the smoking breaks in their day I guess. WHoA....... I never thought of that!!!! That is bullshit! I guess it's just a bonus for the employees that the corporate offices are closed on Christian holidays. It's a double-edged sword 'cause you can't deny them their religion observances but you can't remain open on X-Mas day for a few people to "make-up". How does that work?!?!?!?!???? ~hollywood see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #48 December 21, 2005 QuoteQuote... Muslim ... take the christmas period off and are allowed the 'bank holiday' days ... also their own religous 'holidays' ... a bit like smokers who work ... 8 hours a week less ... because of the smoking breaks ... WHoA....... I never thought of that!!!! YEP! Persecuted Minorities RULE OK! Mike. Edited to add: Think I'll spend a little of Christmas day lurking here to catch any Christians who choose to play wiff their computers instead of "Celebrating Jesus' Birthday". Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #49 December 21, 2005 Alex: You celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ every day of your life. If you use the calendar which says this is 2005, it is the 2005th year Anno Domini, which is Latin for "In The Year Of Our Lord", and so all time is divided by the birth of Christ. Before his birth, things were registered as B.C. (Before Christ). Keep on celebrating. Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AlexCrowley 0 #50 December 21, 2005 actually I have a disability and no concept of time . Seriously. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kallend 2,108 #37 December 20, 2005 Quote WHAT?! Look up WHY Christmas was put on the 25th. It has nothing to do with selling stuff. Could it possibly be that the Roman festival "Saturnalia" was on 25th December?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #38 December 20, 2005 Quote After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870. So, what you are saying is that if you REALLY want to be conservative (that is, keep things the way they were), you should be fighting AGAINST Christmas. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #39 December 20, 2005 I am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,108 #40 December 20, 2005 QuoteI am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Why don't you look it up instead of guessing? Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #41 December 20, 2005 QuoteI am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Seriously. You are wrong. It was put on the 25th MANY years before commercialism as we know or Black Friday was invented.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #42 December 20, 2005 nice one! TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #43 December 20, 2005 QuoteI truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Then why not make a stand and call off your personal Xmas outside of attending mass? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #44 December 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteI am quite sure that having other celebrations at the same time was a motive, after all, the more people you can get celebrating at the same time obviously the more money is being spent. I truely beleive that it all comes down to money. Why don't you look it up instead of guessing? Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. I am aware of this, and I do agree with you, however I believe that there was money to be made by "absorbing" the pagan festival. I also beleive that "our" Christian holiday should be celebrated on a more apropriate day. There has been much debate as to when the birth of Christ occured. But I know that it did not happen in the winter, and I would like to see it moved. However, because of finacial reasons,............that will never happen. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #45 December 20, 2005 Gosh.... if it was all about the money, why did they choose a bank holiday as Christmas day (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #46 December 20, 2005 Christ wasnt born Dec 25th.... Christmas is to celebrate the birth of Santa and to keep retail stores alive... has nothing to do with Christ... Pagans brought "christians" the christmas tree.... santa gives the presents.... the only thing relative to christ is the name...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rocketdog 0 #47 December 21, 2005 QuoteI find it odd that others who are of a different religion (Muslim for example) at my place of work take the christmas period off and are allowed the 'bank holiday' days (christmas day, boxing day etc) as days off, when they then also expect they're own religous 'holidays' as days off - gratis. Is this a common thing? Its a bit like smokers who work on average 8 hours a week less than a non-smoker because of the smoking breaks in their day I guess. WHoA....... I never thought of that!!!! That is bullshit! I guess it's just a bonus for the employees that the corporate offices are closed on Christian holidays. It's a double-edged sword 'cause you can't deny them their religion observances but you can't remain open on X-Mas day for a few people to "make-up". How does that work?!?!?!?!???? ~hollywood see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #48 December 21, 2005 QuoteQuote... Muslim ... take the christmas period off and are allowed the 'bank holiday' days ... also their own religous 'holidays' ... a bit like smokers who work ... 8 hours a week less ... because of the smoking breaks ... WHoA....... I never thought of that!!!! YEP! Persecuted Minorities RULE OK! Mike. Edited to add: Think I'll spend a little of Christmas day lurking here to catch any Christians who choose to play wiff their computers instead of "Celebrating Jesus' Birthday". Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #49 December 21, 2005 Alex: You celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ every day of your life. If you use the calendar which says this is 2005, it is the 2005th year Anno Domini, which is Latin for "In The Year Of Our Lord", and so all time is divided by the birth of Christ. Before his birth, things were registered as B.C. (Before Christ). Keep on celebrating. Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #50 December 21, 2005 actually I have a disability and no concept of time . Seriously. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
