woman, sometimes partly responsible for rape?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Nightingale, thank you for saying that....I think people are confusing two different concepts. People need to realize that their behavious can greatly increase the chances (one any direction) the likelihood of becoming a victim.

If I stand in one of the worse areas of town, take out a wad of $20 bills and start coutning them out in the open, I have just greatly increased my odds of getting robbed.

Does that mean I deserved to get robbed? No
Does that mean I am to blame? No
Does that mean that the robber should get a lighter sentence? NO

It does mean that I placed myself in a situation where I greatly increased the odds of becoming a victim.

I think the same holds true for rape.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Since I don't go to bars, I have the ability and the maturity to choose women who don't either. It might surprise you to know there are many women who appreciate a guy for his intelect and they don't find it necessary to troll bars for losers.

you don't go to bars?

Nor do I drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, do drugs, or rape women. You might be surprised to find out one day that there is a whole world outside of the one you live in.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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don't find it necessary to troll bars for losers

Only losers go to bars?

[AlexCrowley 0]

I'll toss a little gas on the fire...Another real world example (outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)

(outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)
Contrary to popular belief there is a type of woman out there who expects you to understand when no means no and no means yes. Somewhat confusing for someone who's been raised to respect women and that no ALWAYS means no.

There are also those out there that want to fight, want their man to be physical with them - domestic abuse style physical. Again, very confusing when you've been raised to believe the total opposite.


If these things do not occur then the man is doing something wrong.
(outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)

Contrary to the politically correct point of view, but personal experience tells me that there are women out there for whom this is absolutely accurate.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[RhondaLea 4]

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It's not just women who get to change their minds at any time. I want you to think about all the times you've changed your mind about anything, and then tell me why sex should be different from any other decision one makes

we're getting a little sidelined on the point i'm trying to make. I'm 100% agreed that all rape is wrong, But what i'm trying to say is that its also wrong for a woman to do certain things and expect her "no" to then be taken seriously every time. I'm talking about the real world here, in real situations

I'm saying that there is a disconnect between the two premises that you're trying to relate.

It may be bad for a woman to be a dick tease. The price for that is a reputation as a dick tease. Period.

There is no justification for rape. And if there is no justification for rape, a person cannot be held to blame for being raped no matter what that person does.

The separate issue of taking measures to protect oneself from harm has nothing to do with the original argument you made. That issue applies to many things beyond rape, and it applies to men as well as women. The failure to stay out of bad areas, however, still does not make one responsible for the bad behavior of others.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Lindsey 0]

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It's not just women who get to change their minds at any time. I want you to think about all the times you've changed your mind about anything, and then tell me why sex should be different from any other decision one makes

we're getting a little sidelined on the point i'm trying to make. I'm 100% agreed that all rape is wrong, But what i'm trying to say is that its also wrong for a woman to do certain things and expect her "no" to then be taken seriously every time. I'm talking about the real world here, in real situations

I don't think we are getting sidetracked. Your point is understood. Some of us just disagree with you. I expect for my b/f to stop when I say to stop. Likewise I'll respect his wishes when he says to stop also. That's my expectation in real world situations....

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[artistcalledian 0]

LOL

HELLLPPPPPPPPPP i think i'm drowning in this topic

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[Gravitymaster 0]

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don't find it necessary to troll bars for losers

Only losers go to bars?

Amazing that someone who always complains about others reading and comprehension skills would make such a statement.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Amazing that someone who always complains about others reading and comprehension skills would make such a statement.

That is why I asked a clarifying question as opposed to making a statement based on my assumption.

See that symbol at the end of that sentence...it is a question mark, indicating a question. It was meant to try and get further clarification of your earlier statement. I really didn't think that was very difficult....

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I'll toss a little gas on the fire...Another real world example (outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)

(outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)
Contrary to popular belief there is a type of woman out there who expects you to understand when no means no and no means yes. Somewhat confusing for someone who's been raised to respect women and that no ALWAYS means no.

There are also those out there that want to fight, want their man to be physical with them - domestic abuse style physical. Again, very confusing when you've been raised to believe the total opposite.


If these things do not occur then the man is doing something wrong.
(outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)

Contrary to the politically correct point of view, but personal experience tells me that there are women out there for whom this is absolutely accurate.

I don't disagree with you. In fact I have raised this very issue on this site before. But, you better be damned sure you are right before proceeding.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Amazing that someone who always complains about others reading and comprehension skills would make such a statement.

That is why I asked a clarifying question as opposed to making a statement based on my assumption.

See that symbol at the end of that sentence...it is a question mark, indicating a question. It was meant to try and get further clarification of your earlier statement. I really didn't think that was very difficult....

I didn't thik what I said was very hard to understand. Had I meant only losers go to bars, I'd have said so. I can assure you that if you went to a museum or opera on Friday night, you would find fewer losers % wise than you would in a bar. That clearer?

[RhondaLea 4]

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I'll toss a little gas on the fire...Another real world example (outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)

Now we're talking about borderline personality disorder.

Don't know what to say, Alex. We all know whacked out people--men and women. Trying to take them into account is difficult to do in a discussion like this one, because everything they do is perpendicular to normal.

There was, however, no need to take this outside the rape issue. I was very careful to say in another post: "There are exceptions to this that relate to an ongoing relationship and the assumptions we make while in one, but they have nothing to do with this thread. But even in a relationship where "yes" is implied, "no" still means "don't do it.""

I added that in because of something that happened once to someone I know. If you're dealing with a psycho, anything can happen. The best choice is to avoid having relationships with psychos, because in such a relationship, all you can count on is that nothing will ever make sense.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I'll toss a little gas on the fire...Another real world example (outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)

(outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)
Contrary to popular belief there is a type of woman out there who expects you to understand when no means no and no means yes. Somewhat confusing for someone who's been raised to respect women and that no ALWAYS means no.

There are also those out there that want to fight, want their man to be physical with them - domestic abuse style physical. Again, very confusing when you've been raised to believe the total opposite.


If these things do not occur then the man is doing something wrong.
(outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)

Contrary to the politically correct point of view, but personal experience tells me that there are women out there for whom this is absolutely accurate.

Easy it is called communication.

The women I have been with who liked to play in these types of scenario also had no issue with discussing what their limits were as well as what safe words they liked using to indicate their level of comfortableness with same.

I would suggest not playing at that level until you have had that conversation. Quite simple really.

[Lindsey 0]

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I'll toss a little gas on the fire...Another real world example (outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)

(outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)
Contrary to popular belief there is a type of woman out there who expects you to understand when no means no and no means yes. Somewhat confusing for someone who's been raised to respect women and that no ALWAYS means no.

There are also those out there that want to fight, want their man to be physical with them - domestic abuse style physical. Again, very confusing when you've been raised to believe the total opposite.


If these things do not occur then the man is doing something wrong.
(outside of the rape issue, lest anyone believe that my comments here are somehow condoning rape)

Contrary to the politically correct point of view, but personal experience tells me that there are women out there for whom this is absolutely accurate.

In these situations, you'd be wise to set the limits yourself, rather than relying on theirs.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Easy it is called communication.

The women I have been with who liked to play in these types of scenario also had no issue with discussing what their limits were as well as what safe words they liked using to indicate their level of comfortableness with same.

I would suggest not playing at that level until you have had that conversation. Quite simple really.

I couldn't agree more. Not something a guy wants to try with a one night stand.

[AlexCrowley 0]

definitely agree with you. Those kinds of things come over time.

It was actually more in reaction to the brushing of any guy who said 'sometimes women lead guys on' as being evil that made me bring it up. Many guys understand what Darius and Ian are talking about here - it just takes some balls to say it because it sounds so insane given todays standards, and the reactions of the women around us whom we respect. No one wants to be looked at as a deviant or rapist.

I realize that in most sane and mature womens minds that there is never a time when there could ever be any confusion, unfortunately there are times when the line isnt a neat noticable one.

Given the fact that as men we can't actually discuss this without throwing up huge disclaimers that we're not condoning rape or blaming women I think that illustrates the disconnect here.

1. no man is going to be comfortable admitting that the line gets blurred.
2. no woman is going to admit that she might allow the line to get blurred or enjoy the line being blurred.

Why? because the strong modern woman will call them psychos - as evidenced by Rhonda's reaction, the men are rapists and abusers. Which really avoids the main issues involved in both the points above.

It isnt about formal BDSM issues, this is something that occurs on a different level.

So now that I've bought up this stuff openly does that make me a rapist or a danger to women? It would be incredibly sad if talking honestly about an age old conundrum of the sexes suddenly means I think women are 'asking for it' and that i'm a predator.

I think about killing people in far more detail and far more often, does that make me a murderer?

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I think about killing people in far more detail and far more often, does that make me a murderer?

Thinking about it is one thing, but you better be sure the person is going for a gun instead of their wallet before you shoot.

[billvon 3,033]

>It may be bad for a woman to be a dick tease. The price for that is a
>reputation as a dick tease. Period.

And, depending on the person she is doing it to, a slightly higher chance of being raped. That in NO WAY justifies the rape, but it does change the odds of it happening.

It's like relying on your reserve. Most riggers are good packers, and do a good job maintaining gear. Sometimes a molar strap gets left in there, though, and thus it's best not to rely on your reserve 100%. A skydiver who takes care to make sure that his main is maintained and packed well can help reduce his odds of a reserve mal. That in NO WAY excuses leaving a molar strap in a reserve; it just reduces the odds of your dying due to it.

I think the original poster's subpoint might have been summed up as "so should women be careful not to come on to certain guys for their own safety?" And the answer there is yes, which is something I think most people understand.

Edited to add - the title of the thread didn't help any, since it seems to indicate that blame is 'shared' somehow, which it isn't.

[AlexCrowley 0]

hmm I rarely think of guns. After 30odd years of thinking about it i've moved beyond the mundane weaponry. Now I tend to think about the viability of using a toilet roll holder or a small live fish as the means.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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hmm I rarely think of guns. After 30odd years of thinking about it i've moved beyond the mundane weaponry. Now I tend to think about the viability of using a toilet roll holder or a small live fish as the means.

You're freakin scary.

[Lindsey 0]

yeah....I thought the same thing until I read this post:

and you know that for a fact in every case do you? some decent bloke who has been chatting a girl up in a nightclub all night, they both have a snog and a grope... they agree to go back to her/his house, both are drunk... they start heavy petty on the bed, get naked and at the very last moment she says no.. he carries on and she cries rape... thats about power is it? i think those circumstances are purely about sex

sums up his ideas pretty well to me.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[RhondaLea 4]

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No one wants to be looked at as a deviant or rapist.

The way to avoid being looked at as being a deviant or rapist is to not be one.

Rape fantasies aren't rape. Sex games between consenting adults that include a pretense of forced sex aren't rape. Thinking about rape isn't rape.

Inflicting sex on a non-consenting woman person--whatever the moment s/he withholds his/her consent--is rape.

We can split hairs and discuss non-relevant exceptions all day long, Alex. Based on Ian's initial postulate, none of them apply.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Darius11 12]

Oh I see it is better that woman have no responsibility EVER.


You see I think there is a bog difference between a guy who jumps on a woman and rapes her. I say shoot him for all I care. But you can’t live in reality and not think that there is women who abuse the rights given to them by law. The particular incident I brought up was about a young girl who spent all night partying with 2 or 3 guys had sex with them but at one time she said maybe I should go home that was enough to ruin one of the guys life forever.

I think people get carried away it is not black and white I know people love to say it is always the men’s fault, but if she was not forced who can it be rape?


I love how woman like to say they are equals and should be treated that way but have no problem acting like the weak damsel in distress when ever it serves there purpose.

The guys who are sucking up right now make me laugh. You are right gravity the woman should stay away from me because I love my girlfriend and I don’t cheat so trying to be with me would be a waist of time.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[AlexCrowley 0]

no, but I find the concept more interesting than the blame game.

In my mind it's only a sex game if both parties are aware of it.

Anyway, now I'm baking cookies so I have no interest in anything except cookies. and murder.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[tigra 0]

Darius, I think I remember the case you are talking about and if I recall correctly, the girl was underaged and intoxicated. The guys (if I recall correctly) were not underage. Its a shame they could only get one rape charge to stick under those circumstances.