peacefuljeffrey 0 #126 December 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteNo doubt about it, they would be partly responsible. The only person responsible for a rape is the rapist. If I cash my paycheck and I walk down some of the nasty streets in my town flashing cash all over the place, I don't deserve to have someone mug me, crack my skull and take my money. But if it does happen, people will say, "I can see how it may be said he invited that to happen." Can't you see the parallel? Can't you see that no one is saying "rape is justified" or "she deserved to be raped"? We're saying that it is sometimes foreseeable, and therefore avoidable, based on the choices a woman makes and how she presents herself. Not that certain modes of dress and action call for rape; just that there can be some culpability on the part of the woman for putting herself into a situation where she is vulnerable to some of the most deplorable things men do. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #127 December 31, 2005 QuoteCan't you see the parallel? Can't you see that no one is saying "rape is justified" or "she deserved to be raped"? We're saying that it is sometimes foreseeable, and therefore avoidable, based on the choices a woman makes and how she presents herself. This would be okay except that some people have skirted right along the edge of saying "rape is justified" and "she deserved to be raped." I'm pretty sure I tried to separate the issues, but you're trying to merge them again. The original post had nothing to do with walking around in a bad neighborhood. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #128 December 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteCan't you see the parallel? Can't you see that no one is saying "rape is justified" or "she deserved to be raped"? We're saying that it is sometimes foreseeable, and therefore avoidable, based on the choices a woman makes and how she presents herself. This would be okay except that some people have skirted right along the edge of saying "rape is justified" and "she deserved to be raped." I'm pretty sure I tried to separate the issues, but you're trying to merge them again. The original post had nothing to do with walking around in a bad neighborhood. rl Yes, keep saying that, even though "some people" overtly stated that they believe that NOT to be true. By the way, I didn't say anything about being raped because you walk through a bad neighborhood. Please pay attention. That was just an A-N-A-L-O-G-Y. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #129 December 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteCan't you see the parallel? Can't you see that no one is saying "rape is justified" or "she deserved to be raped"? We're saying that it is sometimes foreseeable, and therefore avoidable, based on the choices a woman makes and how she presents herself. This would be okay except that some people have skirted right along the edge of saying "rape is justified" and "she deserved to be raped." I'm pretty sure I tried to separate the issues, but you're trying to merge them again. The original post had nothing to do with walking around in a bad neighborhood. rl Yes, keep saying that, even though "some people" overtly stated that they believe that NOT to be true. By the way, I didn't say anything about being raped because you walk through a bad neighborhood. Please pay attention. That was just an A-N-A-L-O-G-Y. -Jeffrey You need to work on your S-A-R-C-A-S-M and I-R-O-N-Y skills. You also need to realize that one does not address in argument those who agree with one's position, but those who do not. It would be pointless to argue otherwise. Perhaps, too, you should review the thread in its entirety. It would prevent hopeless R-E-D-U-N-D-A-N-C-Y. And finally, it is the ability to distinguish cases that makes or breaks an argument. Get some. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mik 2 #130 January 2, 2006 Some judges views from the UK (a bit dated but might be relevant, from a UK website that seems to raise awareness of rape issues / injustices etc)... Judge Ian Starforth Hill's comments that an eight year old victim of a sexual attack was "not entirely an angel" raises echoes of the notorious remark by Judge Bertie Richards in 1982 that a teenaged hitch-hiker who was raped after thumbing a lift late at night was "guilty of a great deal of contributory negligence". The judge, who was banned from trying sex cases as a result, caused an uproar when he let the rapist, a businessman, off with a £2000 fine. Judge Starforth Hill's word also recall the comment of Mr Justice Owen, a High Court Judge, that a 12 year old rape victim had been "asking for trouble" by going to a 19 year old man's room. Please note that I am not suggesting that these views are appropriate... just thought they might show how some of the judiciary think (or used to ) in the UK... *********************************************** I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #131 January 2, 2006 You are SO the pot calling the kettle black. But anyway, I can't discuss things with you, because the condescension in your posts is palpable. It's a very off-putting, unflattering trait. Cya. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #132 January 2, 2006 QuoteYou are SO the pot calling the kettle black. But anyway, I can't discuss things with you, because the condescension in your posts is palpable. It's a very off-putting, unflattering trait. Cya. Oh dear. I guess all those self-help books are wrong--you know, the ones that tell me that to be liked, appreciated and understood, I must adapt to the style of the person I'm addressing? I'm sending all my copies back today for a full refund. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yamtx73 0 #133 January 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou are SO the pot calling the kettle black. But anyway, I can't discuss things with you, because the condescension in your posts is palpable. It's a very off-putting, unflattering trait. Cya. Oh dear. I guess all those self-help books are wrong--you know, the ones that tell me that to be liked, appreciated and understood, I must adapt to the style of the person I'm addressing? I'm sending all my copies back today for a full refund. rl The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #134 January 2, 2006 Ian, your ability to start shit is amazing. But it does get old... this thread is pathetic. To everyone else: Why do you bother "reasoning" with him? His intent is not "discussion" or "learning", it's just stirring shit and getting attention. I think I will post a request to Sangiro about a blacklist feature in the user profiles, where one could block threads/posts of certain users. Would make this board much more readable, otherwise I predict a gruesome end like rec.skydiving. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #135 January 2, 2006 QuoteTo everyone else: Why do you bother "reasoning" with him? His intent is not "discussion" or "learning", it's just stirring shit and getting attention. I tried to point this out near the beginning of the thread, but was informed by one of the regu-loozers here that you had to have been raped to understand why this is such a legitimate topic. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #136 January 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteTo everyone else: Why do you bother "reasoning" with him? His intent is not "discussion" or "learning", it's just stirring shit and getting attention. I tried to point this out near the beginning of the thread, but was informed by one of the regu-loozers here that you had to have been raped to understand why this is such a legitimate topic. It is a legitimate topic, even if it was started by Ian, whose only intention was to stir the shit. Some of the responses in the thread make it clear that even with all that we know about crimes of power and control, some people still harbor the belief that rape is a "sex crime." It doesn't matter what Ian was trying to do; it does matter that we're talking about it. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #137 January 2, 2006 QuoteIt is a legitimate topic, even if it was started by Ian, whose only intention was to stir the shit. I agree 100%. My original response was colored by my ire towards people like Ian who use this forum as their personal joke area. Also, at first, I didn't see a lot of merit in the topic itself. But after reading a few inputs from you ladies, I began to see the gray areas I hadn't seen before. My original thoughts were that there could be absolutely no blame assigned to a woman, but I can see different perspectives now. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #138 January 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt is a legitimate topic, even if it was started by Ian, whose only intention was to stir the shit. I agree 100%. My original response was colored by my ire towards people like Ian who use this forum as their personal joke area. Also, at first, I didn't see a lot of merit in the topic itself. But after reading a few inputs from you ladies, I began to see the gray areas I hadn't seen before. My original thoughts were that there could be absolutely no blame assigned to a woman, but I can see different perspectives now. I see that Ian's not the only shit-stirrer around here. While the posters on this forum may have some interesting ideas, some of the ideas to which your mind has been opened do not reflect the current state of the law in this matter. I strongly recommend that you not use your new learning out in the real world, or you may perhaps end up in jail. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #139 January 2, 2006 QuoteI see that Ian's not the only shit-stirrer around here. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #140 January 2, 2006 QuoteI 100% agree that all rape is wrong, but if a woman is dressed like a slut, leads a man on... goes back to his house, then says no to sex right at the last moment..... she must shoulder some of the blame for what happens next Bullshit - no means NO, period! As I said in another thread, it doesn't matter if you're leaning in to kiss her on the cheek, or 2 strokes from orgasm - if she says stop, then it's full-motherfucking-STOP. Anything else should be considered sexual assault at a minimum.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #141 January 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteI 100% agree that all rape is wrong, but if a woman is dressed like a slut, leads a man on... goes back to his house, then says no to sex right at the last moment..... she must shoulder some of the blame for what happens next Bullshit - no means NO, period! As I said in another thread, it doesn't matter if you're leaning in to kiss her on the cheek, or 2 strokes from orgasm - if she says stop, then it's full-motherfucking-STOP. Anything else should be considered sexual assault at a minimum. Two strokes from orgasm, and she says "stop"? That's assault, all right, but it's not a sexual assault on the woman. Here's the problem. If you take it to that extreme, women look like abusive bitches (not to mention idiots), and it's just as bad as the other extreme some of us have gone to in this thread. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dolph 0 #142 January 2, 2006 Yup, stop means stop. Even with girls who're just dick teasers. It's kind of disheartening that there even is any ambiguity about it. Now, if you've fallen victim to a true dick teaser you'd still be well served by stopping your activities. The sooner your stop, the sooner you can start to plan your counter-attack. It's so nice when people give you a carte blanche, allowing you to be insidious, devious, petty minded and cruel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #143 January 2, 2006 QuoteTwo strokes from orgasm, and she says "stop"? That's assault, all right, but it's not a sexual assault on the woman. Here's the problem. If you take it to that extreme, women look like abusive bitches (not to mention idiots), and it's just as bad as the other extreme some of us have gone to in this thread. rl No arguments on that point.... I think it was a couple days before I could walk right.... I'd like your thoughts on that situation, though.... had I *not* stopped, would that not be just as much a sexual assault (or worse) than the case you made of the woman that was afraid to say no?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #144 January 2, 2006 QuoteNo arguments on that point.... I think it was a couple days before I could walk right.... I'd like your thoughts on that situation, though.... had I *not* stopped, would that not be just as much a sexual assault (or worse) than the case you made of the woman that was afraid to say no? I guess you had no choice but to stop...but I don't think I would've called it a sexual assault if you hadn't. The power abuse and the controlling aspect were all hers, not yours. "The woman who was afraid to say 'no'" said "no." She said "no" many, many times. And she struggled. But when one is outnumbered, there's isn't much to be done for it. But if she had been willing to have sex with all three of them, and decided in the middle that she wanted to stop...well, I think that's a lemon as compared to your apple. I suppose the reason we have hard and fast rules is that some people aren't capable of using judgment, but it does lead to some thorny thought exercises. I think if I had been you, I'd have pulled out and come all over her headboard. I mean, wtf is someone thinking to put another person in a situation like that? Let me ask you something, what if it had been the other way around? Not her who wanted to stop, but you? I'm not even sure I want you to answer that question; I want to hear some answers from the other women here. Let it be said, though, that in the absence of mitigating factors, I'm really irate on your behalf. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #145 January 2, 2006 QuoteI think if I had been you, I'd have pulled out and come all over her headboard... He he. You truly are more badass than Chuck Norris. HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #146 January 2, 2006 QuoteI think if I had been you, I'd have pulled out and come all over her headboard Ah, to have a time machine.... QuoteI mean, wtf is someone thinking to put another person in a situation like that? Good question... as you said in your reply, I think the power aspect definitely comes into play. QuoteLet me ask you something, what if it had been the other way around? Not her who wanted to stop, but you? I'm not even sure I want you to answer that question; I want to hear some answers from the other women here. If you wish, I'll answer that via PM.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,033 #147 January 2, 2006 >But anyway, I can't discuss things with you, because the condescension in your posts is palpable. Rhonda, PJ, please stop with the sniping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #148 January 2, 2006 QuoteRhonda, PJ, please stop with the sniping. I looked at this, and I had no idea what you were talking about. Then I realized which thread I'm in. I'm quite done...in all four (I think) threads in which he and I are having an unpleasant encounter. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #149 January 2, 2006 QuoteBut after reading a few inputs from you ladies, I began to see the gray areas I hadn't seen before. My original thoughts were that there could be absolutely no blame assigned to a woman, but I can see different perspectives now. Ah, but don't you see, you've drawn the forbidden conclusion, and for that you must be maligned. Some people will not accept your departing from the dogma to figure out your own feelings on the subject and coming up with your own take on it. The only thing that would have satisfied some people would be if you had mulled the new discussion on the subject and then said, "Yeah, but, nah, I still feel exactly as I did before and as I've been told ad nauseum: the woman is always 0% at fault and the man is alwaysl 100% at fault." To think otherwise is politically incorrect and therefore will not be tolerated. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #150 January 2, 2006 Alright, I just saw this. You're right. Ronda is another person I just need to not get into it with because it'll get me "going" and then get me in trouble. Bill, please forgive the few posts I may have made in this and other threads before I saw your "desist" request, 'kay? Happy new year, everyone. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
