What I hate about the skydive community

[freethefly 6]

I normally get depressed at this time of year. It has nothing to do with the holidays. I am coming up on the date that I was diagnosed HIV+. I should be happy to still be kicking. And, I am. I have done more that is posiitve in my life since the diagnosis than before such. The main part of the depression started to set in while listening to Alice in Chains. In 1995 into 1996 a certian woman was living with me and I had strong feelings for her. Before she came to the St. Louis area, she lived up by Seattle, Wa. with Layne Staley, lead singer of Alice in Chains. She commited suicide shortly after Layne's death. If you are not familiar with how Layne died, I will tell you. Layne was in and out of drug rehab for a number of years for a major heroin addiction. His last trip into drug rehab was, appearantly, more than he could handle. The addiction to horse was much stronger than his will to kick it. Layne was found dead with a needle in a gangrene arm. She commited suicide shortly after. I threw her out of my house in 96 after I found smack and a rig that she had hidden. She had no place to go and ended up back on the street. I know that I am not the one who pushed her pass the edge as her demise was going to happen regardless. Drug addiction, depression and suicide seem to be hand in hand in hand. Yet, it is just another thing that tears me up that I threw her out at a time when she needed some one. When I heard of her death, it hurt real bad. Sitting here alone and listening to Alice in Chains and the words of Layne just took me back to the day I threw her out. On top of that I got to thinking of Shayna and how people came down on her. I realized that I was also one of those people who came down on her. I know all to well that by doing such can lead to someone becoming depressed. I have been trying very hard to always understand where a person may be in their life when in time of need and understanding. I have not talked to Shayna since her accident. Yet, I cannot help but to believe that deep in her there must be a depression over what happened to her and how so many came down on her. Being one of those who put her down was not a nice thing to do as I did not step aside and try to understand her motivation for going on TV to tell her story. So what, if she did not get all the facts straight. I do not think that she intentionally lied. I do not think she lied at all. She only said what she knows. It's not fair of anyone to judge so harshly on another as we are not in her place. Some on this board and a number of boards on the net seem to get great satisfaction by stomping on the feelings of others. To those, who do as such, someday you may find yourself in a similiar situation much like Shayna or even my own situation. My heart will still go out to you. To those who are in a situation that seems hopeless, talk to someone or write it down. Seek some sort of help. If you know someone who is in need of help, do not toss them aside. Give them some understanding and a shoulder to hold them up. I have been sitting here looking at a picture of Sandi and wondering if she would be alive today if I had not put her out. Maybe, maybe not. I will never know.

New Fashion
By. M.S.Hamm
From conception death beginning
Have an issue with you winning
Are you truth
or are you fable
One last supper at the table
Wear a noose
New fashion collar
Keep it to yourself
Stifled holler
Bought a casket for a dollar
From conception death laughing
Have an issue everlasting
Conflict with a bug within me
Digging ground
Too deep can't see
Wear a noose
New fashion collar
Keep it to yourself
Never holler
Bought a casket for a dollar


This is all I am going to write concerning my depression.
To everyone who helped me through this with their words, thank you, it was needed.
To those who said othwise I hope that you can find something good in youselves and find compassion for the humanrace. It needs all it can get.
Peace, M.S. Hamm

P.S. Joe, I am looking foward to flying that Xaos after some kickass freeflying!!!!!!

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[RhondaLea 4]

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If you know someone who is in need of help, do not toss them aside. Give them some understanding and a shoulder to hold them up. I have been sitting here looking at a picture of Sandi and wondering if she would be alive today if I had not put her out.

I went through a similar experience in June 2004. At first, I felt that if I had been there for him in those months leading up to his death, he would not have died.

In the end, I understood that while I might have delayed his death for a little while, in the end, the result would've been the same.

We each choose our own fate; no one else chooses for us, for all the influence one or another may have on our lives.

Your task is to take care of you and your life now. Holding yourself responsible for the life of another is too big a burden to carry.

The only other thing I'd like to say is that you have a disease, not a curse. It doesn't matter what you did or didn't do--it's still not your fault anymore than catching the common cold is your fault. Diseases just happen, and attempts to blame them on some bad act has its roots in superstitious nonsense.

Take care,
rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Muenkel 0]

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The only other thing I'd like to say is that you have a disease, not a curse. It doesn't matter what you did or didn't do--it's still not your fault anymore than catching the common cold is your fault. Diseases just happen, and attempts to blame them on some bad act has its roots in superstitious nonsense.

I see what you're saying here and I agree to a point. We cannot do anything about our past, but we can do something about our present and future. Our actions do come with risks though. To deny that would be foolish. I'm not saying the disease is a punishment. Smokers are at risk of lung cancer. We all know it. Is it a punishment when they get lung cancer? I don't believe so.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[RhondaLea 4]

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Our actions do come with risks though. To deny that would be foolish.

Our actions do come with risks and consequences, but some actions don't seem as predictable as others.

One of the first women to contract AIDs lo those many years ago was a 16-year old upper middle class Jewish girl who picked it up from the guy to whom she offered her virginity.

This was before anyone really had a clue what AIDs was all about.

And this is one of the biggest reasons why I believe that what some people attribute to the chain of causality is just a lot of friggin' nonsense.

Go to college, get meningitis.
Skydive, do everything right, die anyway.
Walk your bicycle on the sidewalk, get run over and killed by a wayward driver.

You, of all people, know this, Chris.

Sometimes shit just happens.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Muenkel 0]

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Our actions do come with risks and consequences, but some actions don't seem as predictable as others.

One of the first women to contract AIDs lo those many years ago was a 16-year old upper middle class Jewish girl who picked it up from the guy to whom she offered her virginity.

This was before anyone really had a clue what AIDs was all about.

You're right, but your example does not apply to today. At the time the 16 year old woman contacted AIDS, the risks were not known just as the risks of smoking were not known back in the 20's.

Of course shit happens. I lost my grandfather to a 'wayward' driver. Everything in life can be dangerous, but we can minimize our risk by our behavior. Yes, the non-predictable can and does happen. I consider that fate in a way.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[AlexCrowley 0]

Eww fate.

Does he play chess?

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Muenkel 0]

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Eww fate.

Does he play chess?

Why yes, but quite poorly.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[Nightwing 0]

I've been Skydiving for 4 years and for the first 2 I truly thought that it was a close community that cared and had your back. Wrong, once you pull the knives outta your back you realize that there are a few that are a community within the dropzone but the rest are a bunch of 2-faced, backstabbing, hypocritical motherfuckers that jump because they've forgotten what Skydiving is all about.

But I hear you get that in bike clubs aswell, so....

Drags me down, like some sweet gravity...
Nightwing has stirred, and taken to flight...the silence is over, he's shattered the night!!!

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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When I rode with colors, we stood by each other and stood up for each other, No matter how wrong they were in what they may have done.

Um, you're saying that you support people who have DONE WRONG just because they wear "your colors"? That itself is wrong.

I don't know what issues you are talking about. I don't know "what happened with Shayna." I have been a little out-of-the-loop. But I have to strongly disagree with your insistence that people should stick together with each other regardless of whether they have done wrong or not.

If my brother beat his wife or kid, I would not stand next to him in court as he pleaded not guilty and tried to weasel out of punishment. Is that what you think "family" is supposed to do?!


-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[RhondaLea 4]

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When I rode with colors, we stood by each other and stood up for each other, No matter how wrong they were in what they may have done.

Um, you're saying that you support people who have DONE WRONG just because they wear "your colors"? That itself is wrong.

I don't know what issues you are talking about. I don't know "what happened with Shayna." I have been a little out-of-the-loop. But I have to strongly disagree with your insistence that people should stick together with each other regardless of whether they have done wrong or not.

If my brother beat his wife or kid, I would not stand next to him in court as he pleaded not guilty and tried to weasel out of punishment. Is that what you think "family" is supposed to do?!


-Jeffrey

Supporting the people you care for doesn't mean supporting the wrong that they do.

Abandoning one's friends when they go wrong is reprehensible.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[waltappel 1]

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Supporting the people you care for doesn't mean supporting the wrong that they do.

Abandoning one's friends when they go wrong is reprehensible.

rl

Do you think it is more or less reprehensible than being an enabler or even someone who is a friend but encourages bad behavior?

Walt

[RhondaLea 4]

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Supporting the people you care for doesn't mean supporting the wrong that they do.

Abandoning one's friends when they go wrong is reprehensible.

rl

Do you think it is more or less reprehensible than being an enabler or even someone who is a friend but encourages bad behavior?

Walt

Different issue, I think.

I have a person in my life right now who is not even my friend, but I support her nonetheless when she makes good choices (rarely). I do not, however, encourage or enable her bad behavior. I don't tell her not to do things, but I refuse to agree with her justifications for the things she does.

I do not believe in enabling. I do not give money or encouragement to people with drug/drinking or other ongoing self-imposed problems, and I do not support their necessarily warped view of how the world works.

It's a very fine line to walk, however, and it's easy to deviate from the path if one is not careful.

If you go to jail for a DUI, I won't give you bail money, but I will put money in your account and send you reading material while you're there so you can have the basic necessities the jail does not provide.

In the case of the OP, I can't think of anything I wouldn't do to help if he were my friend. What a situation to be in.

On the other hand, I try to avoid becoming friends with people who have out-of-control drinking and drug problems, particularly when those problems are coupled with a delusion about their ability to handle their drug/drinking problem. But if someone came to me looking for support in attempting to get clean, I'd be right there.

There isn't much you can do to support someone who thinks they don't have a problem. You can, as I said above, encourage the good choices they make.

And if someone is your friend and they get into trouble, then you have to do what is within your power to do, or you never were a friend.

All that's not very helpful. It's more easily explained by example, and I don't really want to give any.

I guess it's the difference between saying no to the street people and contributing regularly to the food bank. I do both, and I try to do about the same in the rest of my life. I've been known to slip up, but most of the time, I've got a pretty good handle on it.

The key is doing things that will allow someone the power and mastery to help themselves. That's how to be a friend, that's how to be supportive of a person without supporting their bad actions.

So after all that long-windedness that I have no hope of editing down to size, both are equally bad.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Um, you're saying that you support people who have DONE WRONG just because they wear "your colors"? That itself is wrong.

I don't know what issues you are talking about. I don't know "what happened with Shayna." I have been a little out-of-the-loop. But I have to strongly disagree with your insistence that people should stick together with each other regardless of whether they have done wrong or not.

If my brother beat his wife or kid, I would not stand next to him in court as he pleaded not guilty and tried to weasel out of punishment. Is that what you think "family" is supposed to do?!


-Jeffrey

Supporting the people you care for doesn't mean supporting the wrong that they do.

Abandoning one's friends when they go wrong is reprehensible.

rl

I'd like it if you would explain just what that means in a real-world application.

How do you "support the people you care about" when they do something criminally and morally wrong, without supporting what they did?

For example, you have a brother who goes out and participates in a gang-rape of a woman.

The news, of course, starts hounding you for comment. Your brother goes to court. Your family is there to watch the proceedings and "support" your brother.

Do you protest his innocence, even when/if you know he's guilty? Do you admit his guilt even as his lawyers attempt to prove he is innocent? Do you tell the press that your brother is a wonderful person, who has had his troubles and has made his mistakes? (As if the raped woman should just forgive him because, hey, apart from being a gang-rapist he's "always got a smile for everyone, and is always willing to help someone out"?
Do you insist that "he didn't do what they're saying he did," even if you know that's a lie?

Do you finance the effort to get him found not guilty, even though you know that for him to be found not guilty would be wrong, because he IS guilty? How do you live with yourself if you help exonerate a guilty brother?

I mean, JUST WHAT does it REALLY MEAN to "support" someone you know has done something really wrong?

Because I figure that it would be traumatic, but if my brother raped a woman savagely, and stood trial, I would not leap to his defense simply because he's my brother. It would all depend on whether I knew or believed he had really done it, first of all. And if I did believe he was guilty, I would not be throwing money to his lawyers saying, "Spring him; do all that you can." I'd be telling him, "Dude, go do your time, now. You did the crime." Because to do otherwise would be hypocritical. If you've ever said that a rapist should be hanged, or castrated, or beaten, or even just imprisoned, it would be hypocritical of you to "stand by him" and "support him" if the rapist were your own brother.


-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[RhondaLea 4]

Apparently you didn't actually read my reply to Walt.

If you can't figure it out, I can't help you.

rl

P.S. Two things: You'd best be absolutely sure he's guilty. You're going to feel bad if he turns out not to be after all. And being there for him doesn't mean lying for him. It doesn't mean saying anything to anyone but him at all.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

If your own brother had done something you truly found loathesome, would you not view him as a loathesome person? How would you separate the two -- the act, and the person? Could a person do something as loathesome as gang-rape a woman and not be a loathesome person?

Again, I ask you, "WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO 'STAND BY' SOMEONE EVEN WHEN YOU TRULY KNOW THEM TO HAVE DONE THE CRIME?"

If I found out my brother had been the BTK murderer, that moment would mark the end of him being my brother, essentially. It would mean, for one thing, that all the "knowing" him I had done before had been a lie. Learning such a thing about a person's secret life, or secret acts, would be a pivotal point, and for me, it would mean being unable to "stand by him." I'd suddenly be looking at a completely new person, one that I could not relate with.

So apart from empty words, what does "be there for him" mean to you? PLEASE ARTICULATE. I don't know how to ask any more clearly for a response that is not simply doubletalk.


-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[RhondaLea 4]

My only response to you, Jeffrey, based on this and other threads, is that I'm glad I don't know you, I don't want to know you, and I'm very relieved not to have friends like you.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[rasmack 0]

Get a room you two...

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[RhondaLea 4]

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Get a room you two...

Not a chance.

There's no need to be insulting.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Someone's upset because I questioned her need to smoke...


-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"