While we're on the death penalty

[billvon 3,044]

What will the result of the Roger Coleman re-investigation be? Google it for more info, but the basics are that Roger Coleman was put to death in 1992 for raping and killing his sister-in-law. There were a great many irregularities in the case - exonerating evidence overlooked because lawyers missed a filing deadline, a potential witness for him killed, and poor DNA testing. The DNA test of the time, used to 'determine' his guilt, could only get down to about a 2% certainty - meaning that if there were 1000 people in the town who could have done it, the test would only have narrowed it down to 20.

Anyway, he was executed, protesting his innocence to the last moment. But the governor has recently ordered the DNA test re-run with modern procedures to determine if he really was the killer.

This will be an interesting test to watch. If it's determined that he really _wasn't_ the killer, then (to me) the big deal is that there's still a killer/rapist on the loose, which is bad. And a man is dead who shouldn't be, which is also bad. (ed) But I have a feeling this will rally a lot of people around the anti-death-penalty cause. I think everyone pretty much knows that occasionally innocent people are put to death, but this will be the first concrete evidence of it.

[rehmwa 2]

I'd hope that the main issue of that is there's still a horrible criminal on the loose that must be caught. This would be the true issue if DNA comes back an proof of innocence.

The 100% correct/100% of the time crowd will never be satisfied. In your scenario, this info will be a rallying point of topic of something that is already known - no value added except to rally those that need an emotional impetus rather than either:

1-courage of the logic of their convictions without the emotive addiction or (on the other side);

2 - the strength to accept a balance of the alpha and beta errors in the justice system

If the DNA comes back 'guilty' with this round, then would we accept the execution? I'd think those against the death penalty would still not if they had the courage of their convictions. Dittos for those that understand risk assessment is unavoidable and still consider the death penalty to be of net value to the justice system. So the list of those that I'd respect enough to listen to already have their positions regardless of the outcome of this single data point.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Falko 0]

I read about that case in the german news. I'm also very curious as for the outcome.

Quote

If it's determined that he really _wasn't_ the killer, then (to me) the big deal is that there's still a killer/rapist on the loose, which is bad. But I have a feeling this will rally a lot of people around the anti-death-penalty cause. I think everyone pretty much knows that occasionally innocent people are put to death, but this will be the first concrete evidence of it.

I'm only 29 so maybe I will live to see when the last of the western civilizations finally and permanently abolishes the death penalty. It's about time.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

I'd hope that the main issue of that is there's still a horrible criminal on the loose that must be caught. This would be the true issue if DNA comes back an proof of innocence.

No. The true issue is that an innocent man was put to death for a crime he did not commit.

That's a huge issue, much larger than one criminal running around loose, given the number of criminals that are running around loose.

I'm pro-death penalty, and this just horrifies me.

The system needs to be fixed. Badly.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[meistwer 0]

Why pro-death penalty?

Rob

[unformed 0]

'Cuz some people deserve to be shot.

This ad space for sale.

[TrophyHusband 0]

this is one of those issues that i'm on the fence about. i'm pro death penalty. i get some sick sense of satifaction when people like tookie williams or ted bundy get put to death. there are several problems though. it is more expensive to put someone through appeals than to just let them sit the rest of their life. sometimes innocent people get put to death. this reason alone would make me support getting rid of it. it isn't a deterent. it does nothing to make our society better. it only satifies the bloodlust and desire for revenge of people like myself.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[wmw999 2,498]

The more I think about it, the more I think that the only death penalty I'm in favor of is a voluntary one.

State-assisted suicide for anyone guilty of something that would or could have lead to the death penalty. Easy, with all the (ahem) benefits of the current death penalty system -- visits with family, final meal, etc.

Otherwise, you're just another number, as insignificant as all the other numbers. And if you decide that you're sick of it, state-assisted suicide is always available.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,044]

>this is one of those issues that i'm on the fence about.

I am too. It really doesn't matter to me whether someone spends life in prison or is executed. I get no sense of satisfaction from hearing about an execution, and nothing is 'resolved' by doing it. The important part is that a criminal is off the streets permanently. So I'd be OK with whatever is cheaper - PROVIDED that the justice system comes to the right decisions 99.9% of the time when it comes to capital cases. As Rhonda said, I don't think it is quite there yet.

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

Why pro-death penalty?

Rob

unformed speaks for me.

Some people, the world is better without. And putting them in prison is just a stop-gap, as well as being a waste of resources.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Amazon 7]

I used to think like that.. but with all the abuses in our system I have changed my mind. I will leave the judging of others to GOD, that falls under his duties and I think far less fallible than a lot of our "judges".

I think a one way trip to a federal prison for the worst of the worst.. I am thinking someplace pretty much escape proof.. just to forstall those of you who worry about things like that I bet I could design a place no one would ever get out of( and yes.. I have worked in a capacity where I understand what that means). A life sentence that means LIFE where they will NEVER get out is preferable than to state sponsored murder of an innocent person.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>PROVIDED that the justice system comes to the right decisions 99.9% of the time when it comes to capital cases.

so your total alpha (killing an innocent) and beta (letting a guilty one live) error is 0.1% or 1 in a thousand incorrect decisions. Are they equally weighted, or would you bias your split one way or the other?

at least one person has the guts to quantify it.

As far as the fake post about personal satisfaction above, it's not about retribution or revenge, it's, as BV noted, it's about removing the threat.

As far as it costing so much because of the appeals process, that's a result of terrible inefficiencies and poor application of punishment. I'd also like to fix that first.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pirana 0]

So what exactly is the purpose of a sentence of life without parole. If the intention is truly to lock someone up until they die - why not just execute them. This is of course under the assumption that you had to have done something pretty nasty to get truly sentenced to life in prison until you die.

For the record, I am a staunch supporter of the death penalty. I think the burden of proof needs to be different than for any other sentence, but once that burden is met - off with their heads; none of this monkey-farting around with 20 years of appeals for someone convicted on rock-solid evidence.

The person's health, age, state of repentance, etc should have nothing to do with it.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Channman 2]

Lets find out if he was innocent first before we get all wound up. If in fact he was innocent we can compensate the family for their loss say no more than the 911 victims families recieved sence our government has exstablised the value of a human life.

But we do have many on Death Row with video record of their crimes of murder. They should receive a fast pass to the front of the line to receive the Happy Juice.

I'm very much in favor of the Death Penalty, because in Texas if you commit First Degree Murder and convicted you stand a very good chance of getting the Juice. (To me that is a deterent, and we move em through much faster than any other state)

But hey I'm just a little fella, what do I know.

[billvon 3,044]

>If the intention is truly to lock someone up until they die - why
>not just execute them.

'cuz a) it's cheaper and b) if we have a flawed system (as we do now) then you can 'fix' the mistake later. If we fix the system, then the only issue is - what's cheaper? Right now life in prison is.

[MC208B 0]

From what I read Bill, it is .02 percent. The prosocuter has no problem with this test going forward, so, we'll probably see a confirmed executed convict come from this.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I think the burden of proof needs to be different than for any other sentence, but once that burden is met - off with their heads; none of this monkey-farting around with 20 years of appeals for someone convicted on rock-solid evidence.

nicely put -

In addition, the term 'monkey farting' is never used enough, as far as I'm concerned

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TrophyHusband 0]

[replyAs far as the fake post about personal satisfaction above, it's not about retribution or revenge, it's, as BV noted, it's about removing the threat.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

my post wasn't fake, it was an honest assessment of how i feel. i admit that it is barbaric. i'm not the only one that feels that way, but i'll bet i'm in the minority in admitting why i lean pro death penalty.

Sorry, I thought you were posing as an example of .... an anti-deathpenalty person's unreasoned stereotype of a pro-death penalty person.

I think those that are pro-death penalty admit their reasons. Your particular reason may be in the minority of that list of people. Likely it represents those with a personal stake (the direct victim's families maybe?).

I'd say anyone with a revenge motive, and those with a high emotional stake in the death penalty, anti or pro, aren't likely equipped to make rational decisions on the subject.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

A life sentence that means LIFE where they will NEVER get out is preferable than to state sponsored murder of an innocent person.

Think about that for a minute.

We fool ourselves into believing that locking up an innocent person for life is kinda okay. After all, if we don't kill him, he might get out in 20 or 30 or 40 years, when we finally figure out he was railroaded.

He won't have a life--his life will have been destroyed--but hey, he's free now, right? So it's okay.

The real answer is to make sure we're only convicting the real criminals. Fix the system, and then we can exterminate the most heinous of them without fear of making a mistake.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[artistcalledian 0]

Quote

The real answer is to make sure we're only convicting the real criminals. Fix the system, and then we can exterminate the most heinous of them without fear of making a mistake.

erm... some would say a guilty conviction IS proving we're only convicting the real criminals

while ever humans are involved in something, there will always be mistakes made, you'll never "fix" the system

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

Quote

The real answer is to make sure we're only convicting the real criminals. Fix the system, and then we can exterminate the most heinous of them without fear of making a mistake.

erm... some would say a guilty conviction IS proving we're only convicting the real criminals

"Some" don't have much knowledge of the criminal court system.

Quote

while ever humans are involved in something, there will always be mistakes made, you'll never "fix" the system

The first part of your statement is a truism.

The second part of your statement is correct, but incomplete. We can improve it immeasurably, until the chance of making a mistake is so slim as to be almost non-existent.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[billvon 3,044]

>while ever humans are involved in something, there will always be
>mistakes made, you'll never "fix" the system.

So why take a canopy control course? Heck, why take an AFF course, if you're going to screw up anyway? Why go to college? Surely if an ATP with 20 years experience can screw up and crash a 747, then there is no value in learning to be a good pilot, right?

There is no such thing as "perfect" with humans. There is, however, "better" and there is "good enough." If we got a cure for HIV that cured 99.9% of all the people with AIDS out there? That's pretty good. Not perfect, but it just might be good enough to stop the disease. Heck, we almost eradicated polio; that's pretty good, even if it's not perfect.

Similarly, if only 1 in 1000 was convicted wrongly of a crime that would send him to either life in prison or the gas chamber? That's probably good enough. It's better that 10 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man is convicted, but if one innocent man dies/spends his life in jail so 1000 guilty men don't get set free? Maybe that's 'good enough.'

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

...but if one innocent man dies/spends his life in jail so 1000 guilty men don't get set free? Maybe that's 'good enough.'

I dunno.

I guess it's good enough if you're not that innocent man.

I don't have an issue with the death penalty. I have an ISSUE with locking up/killing innocent people.

We need to do better than that.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[skydyvr 0]

Quote

Similarly, if only 1 in 1000 was convicted wrongly of a crime that would send him to either life in prison or the gas chamber? That's probably good enough.

Nope, not good enough.

I can't even begin to imagine the protracted mental torture involved in being wrongly convicted, held on death row for 20 years, then executed for a crime I didn't commit. Can you?

. . =(_8^(1)