propofol65 0 #1 December 1, 2006 Flew out Eloy a few weeks ago with a friend that needed a few things signed off on her proficiency card. Her goal was to get a coach and have the yellow card completed. She was already signed off for solo self-supervision. The school there would not honor her card and complete the needed requirements. They required her to go through their entire coach program (several more than needed). Of course she was dissapointed, not to mention the extra costs of doing 4 more jumps than needed. Is this the norm for most AFF schools or is this an isolated case? I can understand the safety issue for letting unfamiliar students jump at a DZ, but man, this sounds like a little gouging. Your thoughts are much appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #2 December 1, 2006 Pom a coaches point of view, we are taught to write the log book (after the student writes thiers portion) in a manner that another coach can rad between the lines and see what was going on in the students learning. That was my coach course. I'm not sure that every coach course is like that but if it is going to be USPA it should be standard. As far as I'm concerned, what you describe dis not normal. I have always been able to ask questions and read the students log book and figure out what I should be coaching. If a DZ is to busy to take the time to give the student the attention they need and paid for, then go somewhere else they aren't teaching you everything yo need to begin with because of the lack of time. I really don't lke seeing a an instructor being met with a rig and a student as they walk into the hanger while the first being spoken are "what level are you on?" I have seen it. I'm sure that there will be instructors on here that will rant and defend the process but I know what I have seen and it has been at more than one DZ (which will be nameless) Just remember that safety isn't about money. Safety is a moral virtue that should be common. Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #3 December 1, 2006 You talk about things like, "4 more jumps than needed" Had your friend done any coached jumps prior to showing up at Eloy?"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #4 December 1, 2006 Unfortunately Bob, you are dealing with a commercial operation. Unfortunately, todays market also allows many individuals to make at least a mediocre living helping low timers learn to skydive better. The coach rating is in my opinion, blowing the sport out of the water. Let me strike that last statement. It is not the rating itself doing the damage. It is the people who are unwilling to help others and not get something for themselves. I got almost all my instruction for free. I now feel that it is my duty (it is also my privilege) to help others find the joy and satisfaction that I have found in this sport. It disgusts me that people are charged for something we (experienced jumpers) should all give away to help the sport grow. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Air-speed should be over at my place giving free instruction. But the basic skills needed to make the sport fun, shouldn't cost. The USPA asks "why are the numbers going down, what can we do to bring them back up". Stop charging new jumpers just to hang out with them for starters. Come to my DZ in WI we will get you the highest skill level you want. and all you pay for is the $15 plane ride to 11G. Maybe some tunnel time to. We can get world class coachs for free to. I know it's a Cessna, but we have two world teamers, two 4-way teams and a lot of very good skydivers. They don't beg off if you sign up they jump with you. We don't charge but a pitense in comparison and you get it all. I took a bunch of people with 50 to 150 jumps away from home this weekend, most had never done an 8-way or jumped an otter. Down to Skydive Chicago we went. We did 6 or 7 ways. They weren't great but it wasn't to bad either. I have devoted thousands of jumps and thousands and thousands of hours to help people enjoy the sport. I just want it to be that way every place you go. So blast away people, disagree with me if you want. But tell me how the rise of the coach rating and the fall in USPA numbers don't correspond. That should get my bitching out for at least 6 months. Thanks everyone.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propofol65 0 #5 December 1, 2006 Actually, my friend needed 3 things signed off on her card. I believe they were tracking, docking and then a swoop and dock. She had already done several coach jumps. She wanted to do the remaining jumps to sign off the card and then to do some solo jumps (of which they wouldn't allow her to do) to finish up her totals to be eligible for the check dive. She completed more than 8 "coached" jumps. It's disheartening thinking you head out on a minivacation to spend a certain amount of $$ to finish you requirements and end up spending 3x as much. I'm inquiring on what other AFF or AFP programs would do in this situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #6 December 1, 2006 Oh, hell. Do you have that sour taste in your mouth? Is that a taste that encourages you? Is that a taste that would encourage you to encourage others? Is that a tast that would help you bring others into the sport? Hell, no. That's what L.O. is talking about. On behalf of all of us Coaches that put the youngsters growth, well-being and smiles of success ahead of $$$, I sincerely apologize for your experience.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #7 December 1, 2006 I am one of the jumpers that Todd's dz has given and is giving sooooo much to. I was also one of the jumpers he took to SDC. I am in great debt to Skydive Wissota, and don't know that I'll ever be able to pay enough forward. But for now, I am the first one to start packing student rigs after student's make their first jump. I was the one that cleaned out the fridge last weekend when we couldn't jump. I'm the one that steps up to help with manifest, often forgoing jumping to take care of the books. Do you think I do this because I like to do these things? No. I do them because I'm trying to pay it forward. When the time comes for me to be in a position to instruct others, I'm sure the hell not going to say, "Yeah, I'll jump with you and "coach" you....for $50". Student jumps are the most expensive that any jumper will do. Why on earth do we want to make it harder and more financially strapping for these jumpers to continue? Funny thing is that I meet the jump number requirement for the coach rating. There is no way that I feel I have the skills at 130-something jumps to jump with a student and be able to give them contructive critism, more less charge them for it. Hell, I'm still learning myself (and I hope that I never reach a point that I stop "learning"). And before I get ripped apart with comments like, "Well, maybe you just suck", I'm not the greatest 1st year skydiver but when you have an up jumper ask you if you have 250 or 300 jumps after a skydive and you have to respond with, "Neither, I only have 130", I know I'm doing alright. When I first started skydiving, I just assumed that all dz's were like mine, and I thought, "What an incredible sport! What an incredible "family"". Then I started frequenting dz.com and realized how incrediably lucky and fortunate I am and I now understand why USPA numbers are down. Holy Cow...I truly hit the jackpot of dropzones!!! Popsjumper and Todd, you don't ever have to worry that you're the last generation of the "pay if forward" skydivers. I will be there to take the torch and pass it on when the time comes. So, if you're "this guy"... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2442802;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=30858532 ...again....THANK YOU!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smile4jami 0 #8 December 1, 2006 Hi all. I am the friend that accompanied Bob to Eloy. My sole intention for heading out west was to obtain my A license prior to the end of the season. I had initially thought I would have to spend around $400 or so jumping. I thought that 3 or 4 coached and I could finish up my card and then the remaining jumps (up to # 25) could be solo @ just the price of a jump ticket. I was accustomed to paying the $60.00 - $80.00 fee for coached jumps at my home DZ and so when I was told I had to pay $150.00 for the first jump of the day, and $120 for every jump there after and had to do 11 jumps at that price to get signed off on...and couldn't jump at all if i didn’t do that, well needless to say I was very disappointed. I believe that the instruction I received probably did improved my skill level, and that it was top quality instruction, but I had to spend over $1300 dollars for something that should have cost no more than $400. That money spent needlessly could have gone toward a rig to jump, or small trips through the winter keep me current. It is unfortunate that the "family" that I have been recently welcomed into (just like any family) has such bad eggs. Hopefully (and from what I am reading here) those bad eggs are far and few in-between. I am so thankful for my home DZ (Tecumseh) where I began and will remain, if I would have started in Eloy I surely would not want to be as much a part of this sport as I am. I would most likely be flat broke and unable to jump!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #9 December 1, 2006 QuotePopsjumper and Todd, you don't ever have to worry that you're the last generation of the "pay if forward" skydivers. I will be there to take the torch and pass it on when the time comes. And therin lies one of my rewards and you can't put a price on that. Wissota Rocks!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #10 December 1, 2006 QuoteIt's disheartening thinking you head out on a minivacation to spend a certain amount of $$ to finish you requirements and end up spending 3x as much. Which is why most people recommend having the A license in hand prior to traveling to different dropzones, especially if traveling to a large, very commercial dropzone like Eloy. Regardless, a phone call or email to the dz prior to making vacation plans might have helped avoid the issue... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #11 December 1, 2006 Wow! I never expected people on here to agree and even support me. I think I might faint...,..., It is good to see that others can see what we are doing to ourselves. The offer was honest Bob, come over any time we will help you get some jumps in. We are open all winter. I know a few people in Michigan. Now I know another. Dick Swanson is a DZ owner over there somewhere. I hope next time you are over in WI you make it to Skydive wissota. I am the S&TA. You are welcome to Jami. Hell, your all welcome. Everyone, I love you all.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #12 December 1, 2006 Quote...Everyone, I love you all. Sorry, Todd...this door only swings one way...exit only, no entrance. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #13 December 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt's disheartening thinking you head out on a minivacation to spend a certain amount of $$ to finish you requirements and end up spending 3x as much. Which is why most people recommend having the A license in hand prior to traveling to different dropzones, especially if traveling to a large, very commercial dropzone like Eloy. Regardless, a phone call or email to the dz prior to making vacation plans might have helped avoid the issue... Maybe, but the average pre-A license novice usually wouldn't know that unless she was told in advance what to expect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #14 December 1, 2006 QuoteQuote...Everyone, I love you all. Sorry, Todd...this door only swings one way...exit only, no entrance. Besides...there's poop up there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #15 December 1, 2006 That was only an invite to skydive, don't get any ideas.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #16 December 1, 2006 I'm sure it wont happen again.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #17 December 1, 2006 >Maybe, but the average pre-A license novice usually wouldn't know >that unless she was told in advance what to expect. Before I got my A license I didn't know much of anything. But that made me call people and ask a lot of questions; it definitely didn't make me think I could show up somewhere and just continue from where I left off. If the thickness of the SIM makes people think that instructional programs are the same everywhere, that's bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #18 December 1, 2006 Bill is 100% correct, we should not just bash AZ. They are super busy and they don't have the time to check up on every student through the door. You really should have checked in before showing. You wont do that again will ya. A small DZ has the advantage on little things like that. We could have figured it out for ya.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #19 December 1, 2006 >A small DZ has the advantage on little things like that. Well, it's got advantages and disadvantages. An AFF student showing up at a SL or IAD only DZ is at a disadvantage, but they might well have more time for them. OTOH, if they only have two instructors that day and 20 students (who all signed up ahead of time) the AFF student might not get much attention. All of which can be dealt with if the jumper calls ahead, of course! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #20 December 1, 2006 bill von novak=correctHPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #21 December 1, 2006 I kissed a*s a little to hard that time didn't I?HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #22 December 1, 2006 SorryHPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smile4jami 0 #23 December 1, 2006 Quote>Maybe, but the average pre-A license novice usually wouldn't know >that unless she was told in advance what to expect. Before I got my A license I didn't know much of anything. But that made me call people and ask a lot of questions; it definitely didn't make me think I could show up somewhere and just continue from where I left off. If the thickness of the SIM makes people think that instructional programs are the same everywhere, that's bad. I had my USPA card with me and I only needed 3 things to be signed off on, along with my log book which outlined all my jumps. It unfortunately didnt occur to me to call up Eloy and ask them if they allow a student cleared for solos per the USPA card to jump solo without completing a 12 coaching program. I truly wish I would have though of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #24 December 1, 2006 Many local dropzones around here will let a nearby dropzone vouch for a current-status student. For example, you can jump interchangeably solo self-supervision at another dropzone in my area, since almost everyone around here recognizes the instructor logbook signatures around here, and it is easy to call the other dropzones to check on the quality of the student. They are just asked to land somewhere else away from the main landing area, such as a big student-friendly grass field. (We got plenty of those at all dropzones around here). I might eventually become a coach myself, but for personal rather than financial or status reasons. There is some coach courses being offered locally which I might take in the spring, once my skydiving picks up again. My main rationale is to be able to jump with newbies (without charging them) -- and maybe eventually help my SO get his A license after a future student progression (if I feel I'm good enough to be a coach) -- not to charge them for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #25 December 3, 2006 I can understand that the DZ should check logbooks and call the jumper's DZ to verify his status. I can understand the DZ making the requirement for an Instructor to take him on a check dive. I don't understand the requirement to make him go through the DZ's own program...especially since he is just visiting.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
