I am an agnostic....and proud of it.

[rehmwa 2]

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A greater scam has never been unleashed.

Hold tight, I'm still working on something. There's serious $$$$ at stake here.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[RhondaLea 4]

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Pajarito,

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

I guess what confused me was the link that you sent basically concluded that I wasn't a "good person" unless I shared certain beliefs...

My mistake.

- Jeff

Under the standard set forth in that link, Jay isn't a good person either. The Christian belief is that none of us are good, but those who accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour are saved in spite of being bad.

The point is that he wasn't saying he's good, because he believes, and you're bad, because you don't. He's saying we're all bad, and we need the blood of Christ to save us.

Being bad has nothing to do with sharing his belief.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Jeff.Donohue 0]

Rhonda,

Thanks for the further clarification, and that is a fair point; you're right.

But you'll note I wasn't saying (in the second post) that it was Jay that thought I was bad; just the authority on the page he sent. In other words, the theology on the page proposed that we're all bad, or at least inherently flawed (doctrine of original sin). I just don't buy that.

I guess where I start from is (i) I see no evidence of a soul that anyone can point to (or anything else that I could point to as "me" that survives beyond my death), and (ii) I see no evidence of the existence of "sin", unless you want to define "sin" as "breaking cultural rules/taboos", in which case you're sort of changing the meaning of the word.

I guess I am a little more optimistic about humans... I don't think we're perfect -- far from it -- but I also don't believe that we're utterly corrupt. People are capable of doing very good and compassionate things for one another, and very terrible things to one another. But I guess I believe, on balance, that people are generally good.

Quite frankly, if I didn't have that belief, I wouldn't get into an airplane!

I guess it just depends on what your starting assumptions are.

[pirana 0]

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He's saying we're all bad, and we need the blood of Christ to save us.

Being bad has nothing to do with sharing his belief.

rl

Ah yes, the bottom line tool of Christianity - declaring us all sinners, then claiming to have the only cure. Dominance via a combination of guilt and withholding the antidote.

I'm a Catholic boy, I was redeemed through pain and not through joy. - Jim Carroll

Of all the BS peddled by organized religion, the one about some roving vagrant philosopher from 2,000 years ago claiming to die for MY sins - Puuuuuhleeeeease!!!!

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine. - Patti Smith

I'll die for my own sins thank you.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[masterrig 1]

Who, do agnostics call out to, during sex?


Chuck

[rehmwa 2]

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Who, do agnostics call out to, during sex?

YOu'd have to say pretty much anybody is as good as any other, then.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,031]

>YOu'd have to say pretty much anybody is as good as any other, then.

"Oh Grover Cleveland!" just doesn't have the same ring to it, though.

[rehmwa 2]

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>YOu'd have to say pretty much anybody is as good as any other, then.

"Oh Grover Cleveland!" just doesn't have the same ring to it, though.

It should if you're agnostic. I mean, really, people say Grover Cleveland existed, but I've never met the guy. I've never even met a Grover OR a Cleveland.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[masterrig 1]

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>YOu'd have to say pretty much anybody is as good as any other, then.

"Oh Grover Cleveland!" just doesn't have the same ring to it, though.

_______________________________________

I just about busted a gut reading that!


Chuck

[pajarito 0]

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Pajarito,

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

I guess what confused me was the link that you sent basically concluded that I wasn't a "good person" unless I shared certain beliefs...

My mistake.

- Jeff

The point is that God's law says you're not good. Neither am I. Neither is anyone else. Unless you can honestly say you've kept his Commandments. That's his standard of goodness. Not mine or anyone elses. I'm not calling you bad. The law shows you that you are. It's like looking into a mirror. Don't think that I'm turning my nose up at you or anyone else because I'm a Christian and think I'm better. I'm not. I flunked the entire test.

[Shotgun 1]

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You might say you don’t believe they are the word of God in the first place so who cares if you haven’t kept them. I’d say that I think you and everyone else here knows in their hearts (even if they won’t admit it in a public forum) because deep down your conscience tells you that they are.

And I'd say that you are wrong. I don't even have the tiniest question in my heart about whether these are the words of God or not. God does not exist, and something that does not exist cannot speak any words. And I'm as likely to start believing in the Christian "God" as I am to start believing in Zeus or any other mythological character. But if I did believe in it, I'd be more than happy to announce it on a public forum.

As for the title of this thread, I'm an atheist... but I can't say that I get any sense of "pride" from that - I just am. At the moment it kinda sucks being an atheist in a country where the large majority of the people believe in "God." But majority opinion won't change my beliefs...

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Are you a good person?

And, no offense, but this is the exact sort of stuff that makes Christians look silly.

But now I'm curious, for those of you who do believe that the ten commandments are the word of God, and something that you should live your life by... Do you think that God would expect someone to honor their father and mother even if that someone had been beaten and emotionally abused by their father and mother? In fact, I can't see anything in the ten commandments that says you shouldn't beat or emotionally abuse your children, so God must think it's ok...

[akarunway 1]

"The point is that God's law says you're not good."________________________________________ Who's God. Where is he?_________________________________________________________"Neither am I. Neither is anyone else. Unless you can honestly say you've kept his Commandments."____________________________________Nobody commands me to do ANYTHING.______________________________________________ "The law shows you that you are."________________________________ Laws where made by men (or women to be PC) not a god.______________________________________ "It's like looking into a mirror." ___________________________________Best part yet. You are good or EVIL. YOU have to look in the mirror (or your own mind everyday). I don't need a god or laws to tell me what is right or wrong

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Shotgun 1]

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The point is that God's law says you're not good. Neither am I. Neither is anyone else. Unless you can honestly say you've kept his Commandments. That's his standard of goodness. Not mine or anyone elses. I'm not calling you bad. The law shows you that you are. It's like looking into a mirror. Don't think that I'm turning my nose up at you or anyone else because I'm a Christian and think I'm better. I'm not. I flunked the entire test.

Wow, what a nice way to go through life - believing that you are a bad person, and that everyone else in the world is bad too, because that is what "God" tells you. Whoever originally wrote this stuff must have been a true sadist...

[GTAVercetti 0]

There is button that says "Quote" to the upper right of a thread. Please use it because your current quoting technique makes it quite difficult to understand what the hell you are saying.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[akarunway 1]

The spelling police, now the quote police now. READ BETWEEN THE LINES

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Dolph 0]

That's kinda the point isn't it?

We all flunked the test. There was nothing we could do but fail.

Bear with me for a while - a bit of a rant here. Pretty sure the G-man will forgive me for it.

The test wasn't even given to me. Instead, it was given to two people who had it all and weren't satisfied. Gullible, living a life of luxury, of opulance, free of pain and displeasure.

And they just had to listen to that fuckn' snake eh? Doesn't it give ya an urge to want to slap Adam and Eve around a bit? All the suffering in the world - and there is a lot of it - just because they wanted what was forbidden for 'em - a temptation put there as much by God as by his fallen angel.

Anyway, now *I* am a bad dude because my great^10 grandfather/mother messed up. And, scripture says, salvation can come through Jesus alone.

So we have the situation: eternal damnation for deeds done by ancestors, unless you follow the commands.

Free will becomes an academic question if the choice is between the fiery pits of hell and goodness abound in heaven. It's the equivalent to holding a gun to someone's head and say it's his choice whether to live or die - drop pants and bend over and live or don't and die.

I don't particularly like being given such "choices".

Then there's the argument itself. I wonder if Pascal was facetious when he wrote his Wager. It is so easily reversible. Of course, I gather you would argue that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God. Problem is that unlike the Quran, most versions have been translated several times before the end product. And written not by eyewitness but by brothers who have this friend who has an aunt who...surfing an Islamic website I came across this:
accuracy of the Bible text. Sure, to be taken with a grain of salt, but lots of good points about how mistakes can creep in.

Now I know I come across as rather provocative and angry and it's not really my intent. Rather, it's founded in a big frustration caused by my own inability to discern the facts from the half-truths and lack of capacity for taking anything on faith. I'm glad you can. It must give a sense of purpose to actually believe in something in the sense of it being the Truth.

I don't buy that we're flawed from the start. Or rather flawed yes, bad no. Whatever Creator/Universe made us, shaped us to be what we are. I feel it is such a tremendous cop-out to say salvation can only come from one source - Jesus. It fails so utterly on a personal responsibility level. Blind fath is uncritical, unthinking. We got these great brains, of a capacity never seen before in nature as far as we know and yet some argue that faith is a requirement for salvation.

God must think it's pretty funny - I am utterly convinced it has a cool sense of humour, if it exists.

[pajarito 0]

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But now I'm curious, for those of you who do believe that the ten commandments are the word of God, and something that you should live your life by... Do you think that God would expect someone to honor their father and mother even if that someone had been beaten and emotionally abused by their father and mother?

The Commandments are God’s moral standard. That Father who abused his children wasn’t following the Commandments himself. If he was, the abuse wouldn’t have occurred. It’s a 2-way street. It’s not the kid’s fault that their Dad is abusive but it just goes to show how it’s all a chain reaction. It’s sad but probably true that those kids will carry some of that baggage with them and it will reflect on their children in the future. In answer to your specific question, however, I don’t really know. Every situation is different. I think there is a limit as to what can be expected as far as taking abuse. I don’t think God is unreasonable.

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In fact, I can't see anything in the ten commandments that says you shouldn't beat or emotionally abuse your children, so God must think it's ok...

That’s just silly. You’re taking a specific transgression and stating that it must be ok with God since it isn’t specifically mentioned in the 10 Commandments. It does say to love God first and foremost. If you love God, you won’t beat your children.

[billvon 3,031]

>If you love God, you won’t beat your children.

?? The bible is pretty clear that if you love God you must be willing to kill your children (for God of course.) It also outlines how to beat one's son:

"He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly."

"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of correction will drive it far from him."

"Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die."

"You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell."

Pretty clear that beating children with a rod is pretty much a requirement for someone who follows Biblical teachings closely.

[pajarito 0]

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?? The bible is pretty clear that if you love God you must be willing to kill your children (for God of course.)

God loves you to that degree. God doesn't expect you to kill your kids. He tested Abraham in that way. He did not make him kill his son. Don't be silly, Bill.

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It also outlines how to beat one's son:

"He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly."

"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of correction will drive it far from him."

"Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die."

"You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell."

Pretty clear that beating children with a rod is pretty much a requirement for someone who follows Biblical teachings closely.

There's a difference between discipline and abuse. My conscious guides me in that aspect with my children. If it feels wrong, it probably is. I don't use a rod but that's just me. The ancient Hebrews did. I'm sure, however, that God would not approve of causing abusive harm to them. Although, discipline is sometimes necessary.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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The spelling police, now the quote police now. READ BETWEEN THE LINES

There is a difference between pointing out spelling mistakes and pointing out that you make posts that are formatted in such a way that they are hard to read.

I don't bother. There is a function that makes it easy to quote people. So I don't read hard to read posts. That goes for horrible spelling, no paragraphs or dividing lines that wrap instead of separate.

Your lines wrap.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[billvon 3,031]

>He tested Abraham in that way. He did not make him kill his son

Right. But the point (which was made very clear) was that Abraham was WILLING to kill his son, as God had asked - and thus demonstrated that he feared God, which was the purpose of the exercise. Afterwords an angel spoke and told him "By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son - blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies."

The lesson there is pretty clear. You have to be willing to kill your children if God commands it; that's the sort of obedience that God desires. Abraham didn't know it was a trick.

>There's a difference between discipline and abuse.

Do you know anyone whou would call "beating a child with a rod" normal discipline and not abuse?

[pajarito 0]

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The lesson there is pretty clear. You have to be willing to kill your children if God commands it; that's the sort of obedience that God desires. Abraham didn't know it was a trick.

But he's demonstrated that he wouldn't command that. You've just got to trust him. We're talking about love without limits here.

1. You shall have no other gods before me.

Jesus said to love God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength so much that your love for your parents, siblings, children, friends, etc. is like hatred compared to your love and devotion to God.

That doesn't mean to hate your parents, siblings, children, and friends.

[freethefly 6]

Holy popedung, St. Petey, what kinda crap is this. Took the test, looking to buy lakeside property on the lake of fire.
1.You shall have no other gods before Me.
(Have you always loved God above all else?)
Nope. I always give in to the Aztec Sun God each and every summer.

2.You shall not make yourself an idol.
(Have you made a god in your mind that you’re more comfortable with, a god to suit yourself?)
My god is far cooler than your god

3.You shall not take God’s name in vain.
(Have you ever used God’s holy Name as a cuss word?)
Goddamn, failed another one

4.Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy.
I always attend Ozfest and listen to Sabbath religously

5.Honor your father and mother.
Moms cool, dad can be an asshole

6.You shall not murder.
(God considers hatred to be as murder.)
I hate disco (that's right disco still sucks), so send me to hell!!
7.You shall not commit adultery.
(“Whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart” — Matthew 5:27-28; this also includes sex before marriage).
Goddamn it, failed another one

8.You shall not steal.
(Have you ever stolen anything? — the value of the item is irrelevant.)
I am going to have to plead the 5th on this one as anything I may say can and will incriminate me

9.You shall not lie.
(Have you lied even once? Including answering these questions.)
Only when forced to take the stand in court to defend myself for lying to the government

10.You shall not covet.
(Have you ever jealously desired what belongs to others?)
Hell yeah, who wouldn't want someones new 'vette, goddamn, what kinda question is this?

Just gotta call from Hellbound realtors, seems there is some goddamn hell of a wait for the lake of fire property. She (she is hot, hot, hot) says that I am going to have to do a lot worse than this to gurantee prime realestate on the lake otherwise I am goig to have settle for something near the river styx. Goddamn it, we all know what people who live by the river are like. This just sux.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[RhondaLea 4]

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looking to buy lakeside property on the lake of fire.

I can help you with that.

Have you any interest in being a cabana boy?

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[freethefly 6]

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looking to buy lakeside property on the lake of fire.

I can help you with that.

Have you any interest in being a cabana boy?

Depends, what's it pay. I hear Hell ain't cheap

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young