It's settled then. The military is above the law.

[JohnnyD 0]

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But if you think what Americans do to POW's is torture than I think you need a strong cup of coffee to open your eyes.

I don't even know what to say to that. How can you be in denial of the plainly obvious? That has got to be poorly worded and it came across wrong.

[Hackb431 0]

Everyone here has a valid point. My personal take is that the soldier in question took approved orders too far for whatever reason. I think he was rightly convicted and the punishment to light for his crime.

What I meant about the civillians and media is that all too often them are able to dictate the policy in an event they may not fully understand. On the converse they may keep actions from going to far but in my opinion they just hinder those warriors doing the best they can to survive and ultimatly win.

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"

[tcnelson 1]

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Bush and those like him are the stench of hypocrisy. Their kind are the monsters who wish for a police state and use religion to push it. They will stop for nothing to persue the demise of freedom. What they say is the complete opposite of what they do. They disgrace the founding principles of this nation.

thanks for the good laugh.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[Hackb431 0]

In response you are correct in this case the victim was tortured. The point I was trying to make is that as a whole US forces are much more gentle in it's interogation techniques than many other countries.

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"

[JohnnyD 0]

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The worst part after a guy getting tortured and murdered is there will people who will bull shit and lie to make the guy who killed him look like a good person not the peace of shit he is.

The point I was trying to make is this isn't a bad guy.
He's just a guy like you and me. He was put into a very difficult situation and it was required that he do some bad things. When he did those things, he was thrown to the lions for doing them. My point is that on one level, this guy is also a victim not unlike all the others who have been put to trial before him.
If our leadership would stop putting soldiers in these positions, we wouldn't have to put soldiers on trial for doing their jobs.

[JohnnyD 0]

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Everyone here has a valid point. My personal take is that the soldier in question took approved orders too far for whatever reason.

My point is that you shouldn't be put on trial for murder and face life in prison for following those orders.
-- We have to treat the disease, not the symptoms --

[freethefly 6]

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How can he say this with a straight face?
The only thing we are leading by example is that if you have guns and power you can do any thing you want we are above all law and the only human life we care about is an American human life.

I completely disagree. The only lives the government cares about are the lives of the rich elite. Everyone else it is STFU and do as your told.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Darius11 12]

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The worst part after a guy getting tortured and murdered is there will people who will bull shit and lie to make the guy who killed him look like a good person not the peace of shit he is.

The point I was trying to make is this isn't a bad guy.
He's just a guy like you and me. He was put into a very difficult situation and it was required that he do some bad things. When he did those things, he was thrown to the lions for doing them. My point is that on one level, this guy is also a victim not unlike all the others who have been put to trial before him.
If our leadership would stop putting soldiers in these positions, we wouldn't have to put soldiers on trial for doing their jobs.

So would you feel the same way about an Iraqi insurgent torturing and killing an American solders or is your understanding and sympathy only reserved for the US.



IMHO-They are both scum and should be shot their leaders who ordered this should receive the same fait.
We have had many incidents with us solders killing unarmed men, shooting the wounded, the whole prisoner scandals and I have heard excuse after excuse. We should hold one standard for all.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Hackb431 0]

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Everyone here has a valid point. My personal take is that the soldier in question took approved orders too far for whatever reason.

My point is that you shouldn't be put on trial for murder and face life in prison for following those orders.
-- We have to treat the disease, not the symptoms --

The only problem is that when you are issued an unlawful order regarless of who is giving the order you have the right and moral responsibility to refuse that order. Only the people that were there know the situation for sure, but I for one, would have done everything in my power to ensure that the question did not cross the line into torture.

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"

[Darius11 12]

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The point I was trying to make is this isn't a bad guy.
He's just a guy like you and me.

I don't know him personally but if he is capable of torture and murder I am not sure he is so nice.

In this country you choose to become a solder unlike the very Iraqi solders we are fighting our guys had a choice. The people we invaded and killed had no choice.


I love this country but I refuse to turn a blind eye it goes against every thing I believe in.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[JohnnyD 0]

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So would you feel the same way about an Iraqi insurgent torturing and killing an American solders or is your understanding and sympathy only reserved for the US.

Of course. Just a guy doing what he has to do. Just like his American counterpart.

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IMHO-They are both scum and should be shot their leaders who ordered this should receive the same fait.
We have had many incidents with us solders killing unarmed men, shooting the wounded, the whole prisoner scandals and I have heard excuse after excuse. We should hold one standard for all.

Until we can effectively change our policy, we will not be able to change our actions.

[billvon 2,991]

>The point I was trying to make is that as a whole US forces are much
>more gentle in it's interogation techniques than many other countries.

I would have believed that ten years ago. But so far we've beaten around 21 people to death in our prisons, if autopsy reports are any indication. If we torture people so badly that, say, 5% of them die, that means we're torturing hundreds of people in some very brutal (often deadly) ways.

I agree, keeping someone awake for 10 days straight, or putting them in a cold cell isn't really torture. But breaking their ribs? Suffocating them? Raping them with a broomstick? That's something worthy of Saddam Hussein, not the United States of America. We should care about human rights more than that - even if our enemies don't.

[Channman 2]

Smells like freedom to me. HAA

But there does seam to be a slight hint of stink in some of these threads.

[Channman 2]

> I agree, keeping someone awake for 10 days straight, or putting them in a cold cell isn't really torture. But breaking their ribs? Suffocating them? Raping them with a broomstick? That's something worthy of Saddam Hussein, not the United States of America. We should care about human rights more than that - even if our enemies don't.

I'm on board with the above statement.

[kallend 2,027]

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Smells like freedom to me. HAA

But there does seam to be a slight hint of stink in some of these threads.

Freedom for Bush to torture when he wants to, eh?

Bush could bypass new torture ban
Waiver right is reserved
By Charlie Savage, Boston Globe Staff | January 4, 2006

WASHINGTON -- When President Bush last week signed the bill outlawing the torture of detainees, he quietly reserved the right to bypass the law under his powers as commander in chief.


After approving the bill last Friday, Bush issued a ''signing statement" -- an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law -- declaring that he will view the interrogation limits in the context of his broader powers to protect national security. This means Bush believes he can waive the restrictions, the White House and legal specialists said.



Interesting to compare what he does with what he says:

PS look up "hypocrisy" in the dictionary, seems like you've forgotten what it is.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AdD 1]

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when you say convicted of killing an iraqi...what exactly was the conviction? there is no law that says "you can't kill iraqis." the law would be murder, manslaughter, conspiracy, etc.

Geneva Convention
Uniform Code of Military Justice?
I think these would frown on it

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[tcnelson 1]

you win the "missed point" award for this thread.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[Hackb431 0]

True statement!

By chance did you see how the Afghans would transport their prisoners before they even got to the interogation stage?

They would load them into Conex trailers (large steel boxex used for shipping things on ships) with only a few small holes for air. They would then stuff as many bodies as possible into the conex and drive them to the POW collection point. The collection point may have been 100 or more miles away in the Adfghanistan sun with very little or no food and water for the journey. Many people would die enroute.

Point being that we do have a problem but I don't think it is as widespread as the media would lead you to believe.

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"

[kallend 2,027]

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True statement!

By chance did you see how the Afghans would transport their prisoners before they even got to the interogation stage?

They would load them into Conex trailers (large steel boxex used for shipping things on ships) with only a few small holes for air. They would then stuff as many bodies as possible into the conex and drive them to the POW collection point. The collection point may have been 100 or more miles away in the Adfghanistan sun with very little or no food and water for the journey. Many people would die enroute.

Point being that we do have a problem but I don't think it is as widespread as the media would lead you to believe.

How does bad behavior on the part of the Afghans have any effect on how we should behave? Did your mother accept excuses like "Well, Billy is worse" when you misbehaved as a child?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

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How does bad behavior on the part of the Afghans have any effect on how we should behave? Did your mother accept excuses like "Well, Billy is worse" when you misbehaved as a child?

Seems to me its a very common tactic of the right.... I can't believe some of your Ultra Right hand boys on here have not found a way to blame Clinton for this yet.

[kallend 2,027]

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I agree, but what if the Attorney General believes the Geneva Conventions are outdated and don't actually apply in this case?

Hmm... If an enemy general in captivity does not qualify for POW status then who does? But you are probably right. They might even make that argument.

"They" make the argument that if the CinC determines that an individual is not a POW, then he isn't a POW, and he has no rights to a hearing, no due process, no right to counsel. The CinC recently determined that the Act (which he signed into law) banning torture does not apply to him either.

IMO we have an administration that considers itself above the law and everything that this country used to stand for.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[IanHarrop 42]

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I agree, keeping someone awake for 10 days straight, or putting them in a cold cell isn't really torture. But breaking their ribs? Suffocating them? Raping them with a broomstick? That's something worthy of Saddam Hussein, not the United States of America.

Unfortunately it is now something worthy of the United States. Trust once lost is awfully hard to regain.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[Darius11 12]

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In Reply To
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So would you feel the same way about an Iraqi insurgent torturing and killing an American solders or is your understanding and sympathy only reserved for the US.

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Of course. Just a guy doing what he has to do. Just like his American counterpart.

If that is how you truly feel then I respect your opinion even if I do not agree with it.

There is an old saying hardship and torment can be justice if it is the same for all.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,991]

>Point being that we do have a problem but I don't think it is as
>widespread as the media would lead you to believe.

I think the media has been remarkably mum on this. Ask someone in the street if we have ever tortured people to death in Iraq and you'll likely hear "I don't think so." Even here on this board, several people have expressed suprise at the autopsy results, months after they had been released by the military. The press is too busy lately with the Golden Globe awards and the Abramoff scandal to pay much attention to the more boring, downer news.

[Hackb431 0]

It does not justify the wrong actions of any person, nation, or military. I just was trying to point out that things are not as bad as people are led to believe in comparison.

But just to stir some things up, why do I keep hearing how inhumane and unjust and all this other whining from people that to me appear never to have been in a combat situation?

It's easy to sit back and be righteous and just when you are not faced with the stress of life and death every day. Walk a mile in the boots of combat soldiers who have to deal with mayhem every day and see if your outlook changes just a bit.

Oh and just to stir it up a bit more when I say combat soldiers I mean those that are in actual combat situations not just some random enemy contact. Now the rest of the soldiers do their part but let's face it not every one who puts on a unifrom is a combat killer.

The only credentials I have are 2 tours in Afghanistan with the US Infantry as a Infantry Fire Team Leader.

Now that should stir the pot up a bit.....let's see where this goes kiddies!

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"