It's settled then. The military is above the law.

[rasmack 0]

No jail time for officer in death of Iraqi

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A military jury on Monday ordered a reprimand but no jail time for an Army interrogator convicted of killing an Iraqi general by stuffing him headfirst into a sleeping bag and sitting on his chest.

But I guess it is OK to kill an enemy general in interrogation. He was probably a terrorist.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[MC208B 0]

at least he didn't saw his head off with a dull knife

[christelsabine 1]

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at least he didn't saw his head off with a dull knife

So, killing someone slowly and painful by suffocation is more human and higher western standard, then?

Oh well, understand that way of thinking.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[rasmack 0]

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at least he didn't saw his head off with a dull knife

So, killing someone slowly and painful by suffocation is more human and higher western standard, then?

Oh well, understand that way of thinking.

No, what he said was that he is satisfied as long as the standard for US officers is higher than for scumbag terrorists.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[tcnelson 1]

when you say convicted of killing an iraqi...what exactly was the conviction? there is no law that says "you can't kill iraqis." the law would be murder, manslaughter, conspiracy, etc.

one of the things you must prove in murder cases is the element of intent. it sounds like the officer is guilty of manslaughter. the sentence that he/she received sounds light to me but, in any case, i don't think this person was convicted of murder in any of its caveats.

lawrocket? here's a good one for you, although it's military law.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[rasmack 0]

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when you say convicted of killing an iraqi...what exactly was the conviction? there is no law that says "you can't kill iraqis." the law would be murder, manslaughter, conspiracy, etc.

"negligent homicide" whatever that means.

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in any case, i don't think this person was convicted of murder in any of its caveats.

Agreed, but to only give someone a reprimand for ending the life of a POW is just wrong.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[tcnelson 1]

it means negligent behavior on the part of the officer that led to the death of the prisoner. i agree that the sentence was very light. we'll never know the circumstances in full but, it sure seems that the judge went easy doesn't it.

edit: according to the article, the jury imposed the sentence, not a judge; interesting.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[crozby 0]

From the article:

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The defense had argued a heart condition caused Mowhoush's death, and that Welshofer's commanders had approved the interrogation technique.

Prosecutors described Welshofer as a rogue interrogator who became frustrated with Mowhoush's refusal to answer questions and escalated his techniques from simple interviews to beatings to simulating drowning, and finally, to death.

It's pretty clear from the trial that putting prisoners in sleeping bags and making them believe they are being suffocated to death is considered acceptable behaviour by those that operate the interrogations.

If that behaviour is acceptable then the only 'crime' this guy comitted was to suffocate the Iraqi just a little bit too long.

I guess it comes down to whether you think torturing people, for whatever the reason given, is acceptable or not.

Personally, I don't agree with that kind of behaviour under any circumstances.

There are probably a similar number of 'westerners' and 'terrorists' that think torture and barbarism are acceptable for the cause. For one side of this alleged war the cause is freedom and democracy, for the other side it is ... umm .. well, what is it? do you even know?

There are extremists on both sides and all of them are pretty fucked-up in my opinion.

[steve1 5]

I'm not saying this is right, but suffocation is often used to torture prisoners. In the military I went through a phase of training where torture was openly discussed. We were shown a movie of U.S. pilots being tortured by other Americans as part of their training. We were told to hold out as long as you could but eventually everyone would break in the end. I'm glad to say that none of these techniques were used on me.

At any rate, these pilots were held down and a wet wash cloth was placed over their mouth and nose, while someone blew cigar smoke up their nose. Before long most were spilling the beans about anything they were asked.

I talked with another Air Force NCO who said they sometimes used a small coffin like thing (in training)that stood upright. A person was closed up in this. Then someone turned the water on, and it would slowly fill with water till it was up to your neck. The person inside thought this was the end and the feeling of clostrophobia must have been intense. The person inside didn't know there were holes cut in the upper part of this so it was impossible to drown someone in it.

In World War II I read a story about an American who was put in a bath tub and held under by his German captors till he passed out. They did this over and over. Sometimes he would pass false info. rather than tell the truth. They did this to him over and over. More than once he tried to kill himself (once by jumping out a window into the street below) but his captors stopped him.

I agree, this torture buisness sounds awful. If someone stuffed me in a sleeping bag and sat on my chest, I'd probably have a heart attack too. I can't stand confined places....Steve1

[kallend 2,026]

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at least he didn't saw his head off with a dull knife

Statement by President George W. Bush, June 26, 2003


Today, on the United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, the United States declares its strong solidarity with torture victims across the world. Torture anywhere is an affront to human dignity everywhere. We are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law.

Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right. The Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, ratified by the United States and more than 130 other countries since 1984, forbids governments from deliberately inflicting severe physical or mental pain or suffering on those within their custody or control. Yet torture continues to be practiced around the world by rogue regimes whose cruel methods match their determination to crush the human spirit. Beating, burning, rape, and electric shock are some of the grisly tools such regimes use to terrorize their own citizens. These despicable crimes cannot be tolerated by a world committed to justice.
The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment. I call on all nations to speak out against torture in all its forms and to make ending torture an essential part of their diplomacy. I further urge governments to join America and others in supporting torture victims' treatment centers, contributing to the UN Fund for the Victims of Torture, and supporting the efforts of non-governmental organizations to end torture and assist its victims.




Can anyone smell the stink of hypocrisy?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnnyD 0]

I know its very easy to look at this from the outside and say the guy is a bad apple and he was just given a slap on the wrist, but I don't think that is at all what is being said here.
I think the current US administration has done an immeasurable disservice to its soldiers by openly encouraging or even requiring this type of behavior and techniques and then placing 100% of the blame on their shoulders when something goes wrong. This guy was just a soldier following orders. They were very bad orders, as is evident by his conviction. Again, he was just following orders, as is evident by the sentence.
I truly hope American leadership will stop throwing its soldiers under the bus and appreciate the sacrifices they are making.

[tcnelson 1]

the "just following orders" defense does not cut it. it didn't absolve the germans after WW2 and it won't now. there are several techniques that are commonly used in interrogations that are designed to scare or discomfort the prisoner. this one, if sanctioned by the army, went too far and the person that took it too far is guilty of negligent homicide. there's no two ways to cut it. he is guilty and the sentence was imposed, as it should be. whether it was too light or not is a matter of debate.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[JohnnyD 0]

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this one, if sanctioned by the army, went too far and the person that took it too far is guilty of negligent homicide. there's no two ways to cut it. he is guilty and the sentence was imposed, as it should be. whether it was too light or not is a matter of debate.

And a rifleman who shoots an enemy soldier in a fire fight is guilty of murder?

[rasmack 0]

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And a rifleman who shoots an enemy soldier in a fire fight is guilty of murder?

Apples and oranges. A soldier who tortures a POW to the point where he suffocates is in violation of the third Geneva convention as well as military law.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[JohnnyD 0]

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A soldier who tortures a POW to the point where he suffocates is in violation of the third Geneva convention as well as military law.

I agree, but what if the Attorney General believes the Geneva Conventions are outdated and don't actually apply in this case?

[freethefly 6]

Bush and those like him are the stench of hypocrisy. Their kind are the monsters who wish for a police state and use religion to push it. They will stop for nothing to persue the demise of freedom. What they say is the complete opposite of what they do. They disgrace the founding principles of this nation.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[rasmack 0]

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I agree, but what if the Attorney General believes the Geneva Conventions are outdated and don't actually apply in this case?

Hmm... If an enemy general in captivity does not qualify for POW status then who does? But you are probably right. They might even make that argument.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[freethefly 6]

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A soldier who tortures a POW to the point where he suffocates is in violation of the third Geneva convention as well as military law.

I agree, but what if the Attorney General believes the Geneva Conventions are outdated and don't actually apply in this case?

It is not the AG's place to decide what is out of date. It is the AG's place to uphold what is in the book.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Hackb431 0]

The general laws of Warfare are very clearly defined for the average US military personell. For the Special Forces, interagation, and other operator levels there may or may not be a different set of rules. In the end I do not condone torture personally but I would say in this soldiers defense it may have weighed heavily on his consious the effect of his actions based on the information that may have been gained.

When it comes to warfare it is a nasty ugly thing that civillians and media should be kept out of. Unfortunatly brutallity must be met w/ brutality lest we fall victim to our own weakness.

As for the comment above about a soldier shooting an enemy in a firefight that is a sanctioned activity but what if he was injured or trying to surrender or some other type of classified Non combatant. In that case you have overstepped the law as set forth to you and you are wrong.

But if you think what Americans do to POW's is torture than I think you need a strong cup of coffee to open your eyes.

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"

[Darius11 12]

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Yet torture continues to be practiced around the world by rogue regimes whose cruel methods match their determination to crush the human spirit. Beating, burning, rape, and electric shock are some of the grisly tools such regimes use to terrorize their own citizens. These despicable crimes cannot be tolerated by a world committed to justice.
The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding

How can he say this with a straight face?
The only thing we are leading by example is that if you have guns and power you can do any thing you want we are above all law and the only human life we care about is an American human life.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,991]

>But if you think what Americans do to POW's is torture than I think
>you need a strong cup of coffee to open your eyes.

So this guy was just legally questioned to death? And the other people who were tortured to death in US prisons just died accidentally? When you break someone's ribs, hang them from the ceiling and leave them to suffocate, it's hard to define that as anything other than torture. I suspect if US servicemen were subjected to such treatment you would define it as torture very quickly.

[rasmack 0]

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But if you think what Americans do to POW's is torture than I think you need a strong cup of coffee to open your eyes.

It may not meet your definition of torture, but at the very least I think it is a violation of the 3rd Geneva convention, Part III, art. 17:

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No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.

This is a treaty signed by the US. It is therefore the "law of the land" according to the US constitution.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[JohnnyD 0]

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I agree, but what if the Attorney General believes the Geneva Conventions are outdated and don't actually apply in this case?

Hmm... If an enemy general in captivity does not qualify for POW status then who does? But you are probably right. They might even make that argument.

They have - repeatedly.
That is how we continue to hold hundreds captive at Gitmo without ever being charged with some form of crime or allowed to speak to some legal representative. That is how we hold ghost prisoners who do not get reported to the Red Cross. That is how we openly condone the use of dogs and other interrogation methods which may be against the conventions.
Unfortunately, we are walking some very thin lines and when something goes wrong and becomes public, its always the guy on the bottom rung of the ladder that gets left holding the shit sack.
Also something of interest: I believe it was at this trial that the commanding general of the base refused to testify on grounds that he may incriminate himself. Further proof that these are not guys just out there thinking they are Rambo and acting completely on their own. They are doing what they are told.

[freethefly 6]

When it comes to warfare it is a nasty ugly thing that civillians and media should be kept out of.***

Are you implying that "we the people" do not have the right to be informed of what the government is doing. An uninformed population is a population that is in the greatest danger. Our very government is extremely dangerous and should be watch with extreme caution. No one is safe.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Darius11 12]

The worst part after a guy getting tortured and murdered is there will people who will bull shit and lie to make the guy who killed him look like a good person not the peace of shit he is.

People forget wearing a uniform does not exempt you from all human standards it should elevated it and therefor you should be held responsible.

Letting your patriotism distort right from wrong is a very slippery slope that many are already on.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain