It's settled then. The military is above the law.

[tcnelson 1]

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Seems to me its a very common tactic of the right.... I can't believe some of your Ultra Right hand boys on here have not found a way to blame Clinton for this yet.

you're outright fooling yourself if you think that this is a tactic used only by people on "the right". it's a common tactic used by all kinds of illogical thinkers from all spectrums.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[kallend 2,070]

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It does not justify the wrong actions of any person, nation, or military. I just was trying to point out that things are not as bad as people are led to believe in comparison.

But just to stir some things up, why do I keep hearing how inhumane and unjust and all this other whining from people that to me appear never to have been in a combat situation?

It's easy to sit back and be righteous and just when you are not faced with the stress of life and death every day. Walk a mile in the boots of combat soldiers who have to deal with mayhem every day and see if your outlook changes just a bit.

Oh and just to stir it up a bit more when I say combat soldiers I mean those that are in actual combat situations not just some random enemy contact. Now the rest of the soldiers do their part but let's face it not every one who puts on a unifrom is a combat killer.

The only credentials I have are 2 tours in Afghanistan with the US Infantry as a Infantry Fire Team Leader.

Now that should stir the pot up a bit.....let's see where this goes kiddies!

My son is in Iraq...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mikkey 0]

A few thoughts:

1) The Nurnberg trials clearly set the precedent that a) following orders does not protect somebody from being persecuted for war crimes b) those who give the orders are guilty and should be held responsible.

2) The US has clearly not followed the Geneva Convention as well as other UN conventions. All are conventions the US is has signed. You can not bypass conventions and laws by getting legal opinions from your own administration. Only a test in front of an independent court would be an excuse. Thus the current administration IMO is breaking US law.

3) Americans (e.g. on this board) are up in arms that people around the world are being more and more “anti-American”. Well, think of it this way: a) The current administration has made it absolutely clear that there is one law / standard for Americans and one for everybody else. B) How would the US react if any of its citizens would be incarcerated without trial, how would they react if there citizens would be kidnapped on foreign soil and held and tortured in secret jails? Including people who clearly have been shown to be complete innocent bystanders?

4) A MO where non-American “collateral damage” - like in the recent “bombing” in Pakistan - is accepted with a shrug of the shoulders – is a symptom of a supremacy attitude that will not make the US any friends.

5) All of above leads to growing anti-Americanism and makes it far easier to recruit terrorists as well as increase passive support for them. It also leads to that support for the US has diminished dramatically amongst traditional allies. Down here in Australia there has traditionally been an enormous support for the US based on the fact that it was the US who saved Australia from a Japanese invasion in WW2. I have never seen as much anti-US sentiments as I have seen now.

6) Finally – the ends never justify the means. This is the biggest problem IMHO. The US has relinquished the moral high ground and once you do this you are stuffed. No matter how many young testosterone driven, gun loving people on this board dismiss any criticism with “fuckem” – the way the US currently conducts the “war on terror” will for sure not win it in the long term. Maybe there is a cultural problem here. Seems that so many Americans think the US can do no wrong and is the best country in the World in every single aspect. Maybe it is this mindset that is causing a lot of the current problems. Maybe that is why the Americans hate the French so much – they have a similar attitude ;-)

Just my 5 cents

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[skydyvr 0]

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Everyone else it is STFU and do as your told.

Where the fuck do you live, prison or something?

If not, then you're a bit out of touch with reality.

. . =(_8^(1)

[skydyvr 0]

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I think the media has been remarkably mum on this. Ask someone in the street if we have ever tortured people to death in Iraq and you'll likely hear "I don't think so."

How can you say the media is mum on this when the torture stories have been all over the media for quite some time.

Your "man on the street" example sure doesn't mean anything -- those same people couldn't find Iraq on a map if their lives depended on it.

. . =(_8^(1)

[billvon 3,031]

>Where the fuck do you live, prison or something?
>If not, then you're a bit out of touch with reality.

Your one warning.

[skydyvr 0]

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Your one warning.

Yep, my bad behavior. I apologize.

. . =(_8^(1)

[freethefly 6]

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Where the fuck do you live, prison or something?

Deep in the Ozarks with my gun, ammo and Rebel flag flying proudly.

But to stay on subject. If our country wish to be the guiding light, then we need to practice what we preach and not stoop to the level of those we are against. Show that we can be compassionate yet stern. Torture is barbaric and even though our enemies do it it is no reason that we do the same. We cannot win over the sons and daughters of our enemies by being the same as our enemies.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[skydyvr 0]

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But to stay on subject.

Well, the subject that prompted my comment was that somehow, somewhere, we're all being told to stfu and follow orders. Where is that happenng (yet)?

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If our country wish to be the guiding light, then we need to practice what we preach and not stoop to the level of those we are against. Show that we can be compassionate yet stern. Torture is barbaric and even though our enemies do it it is no reason that we do the same. We cannot win over the sons and daughters of our enemies by being the same as our enemies.

Not much to argue there except the assertion that we're the same as our enemies -- that's not so, not with this enemy.

. . =(_8^(1)

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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No jail time for officer in death of Iraqi

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A military jury on Monday ordered a reprimand but no jail time for an Army interrogator convicted of killing an Iraqi general by stuffing him headfirst into a sleeping bag and sitting on his chest.

But I guess it is OK to kill an enemy general in interrogation. He was probably a terrorist.

If you're in a war, it's okay to shoot him dead, or fire a missile at his building and have him crushed beneath tons of rubble.

So one kind of "dead" is worse than another kind of "dead"?

Help me figure this out.

If "being at war" means I can kill you, how can you object to being killed in any way at all, period?

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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But to stay on subject. If our country wish to be the guiding light, then we need to practice what we preach and not stoop to the level of those we are against. Show that we can be compassionate yet stern. Torture is barbaric and even though our enemies do it it is no reason that we do the same. We cannot win over the sons and daughters of our enemies by being the same as our enemies.

Before you can be a "guiding light," you have to survive and thrive. Sometimes in order to just manage that, you have to be pretty darned fierce and nasty.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Dolph 0]

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If you're in a war, it's okay to shoot him dead, or fire a missile at his building and have him crushed beneath tons of rubble.

So one kind of "dead" is worse than another kind of "dead"?

Help me figure this out.

If "being at war" means I can kill you, how can you object to being killed in any way at all, period?
-

Seeing as I would be dead, I wouldn't be able to object to anything at all. The worst I could do would be to rot in place and maybe some enemies would get diseases and stuff.

To answer your question though; we have rather naeively implemented a series of laws detailing how we're supposed to fight wars. One such details for instance is that we're not supposed to be genocidal about it and try to destroy entire ethnic populations. Few administrations argue for "one of the Final Solutions - after all, we don't know what people we'd like to wipe out next".

If you're not OK with this - then the US and allies were utter bastards for hanging those fine German national socialistic leaders who were merely doing their job - they were at war and in war you kill your enemies, internal and external alike. The International Jewery were aiding and abetting the enemy (and caused the second world war) and anyone supporting the armed forces of the enemy in any way whatsoever is an enemy - and therefore a legal target.

In short, being at war doesn't mean you can kill me at your discretion. It doesn't even mean you can kill me when given direct orders to do so. The order has to be lawful.

You know all this so there's little point in telling you. "Being at war" doesn't mean you can kill me in all situations.

[skydyvr 0]

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The worst I could do would be to rot in place and maybe some enemies would get diseases and stuff.

Man, that was funny.

. . =(_8^(1)

[freeryde13 0]

When it comes to warfare it is a nasty ugly thing that civillians and media should be kept out of. Unfortunatly brutallity must be met w/ brutality lest we fall victim to our own weakness.

As for the comment above about a soldier shooting an enemy in a firefight that is a sanctioned activity but what if he was injured or trying to surrender or some other type of classified Non combatant. In that case you have overstepped the law as set forth to you and you are wrong.

But if you think what Americans do to POW's is torture than I think you need a strong cup of coffee to open your eyes.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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In short, being at war doesn't mean you can kill me at your discretion. It doesn't even mean you can kill me when given direct orders to do so. The order has to be lawful.

You know all this so there's little point in telling you. "Being at war" doesn't mean you can kill me in all situations.

That's the absurd part.

If you don't like the fact that I consider myself at war with you and free to kill you in any situation whatsoever, what are you gonna do about it? Declare war on me??!


It's absurd on its face that in WAR, I have to be NICE to you about the way I'm trying to kill you. I'M FUCKING TRYING TO [I]KILL[/I] YOU!!!!!!

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[mikkey 0]

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But to stay on subject. If our country wish to be the guiding light, then we need to practice what we preach and not stoop to the level of those we are against. Show that we can be compassionate yet stern. Torture is barbaric and even though our enemies do it it is no reason that we do the same. We cannot win over the sons and daughters of our enemies by being the same as our enemies.

Before you can be a "guiding light," you have to survive and thrive. Sometimes in order to just manage that, you have to be pretty darned fierce and nasty.

-

Your reasoning in several posts in this thread is not so distant from the way Al Qaeda justifies its actions.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Before you can be a "guiding light," you have to survive and thrive. Sometimes in order to just manage that, you have to be pretty darned fierce and nasty.

-

Your reasoning in several posts in this thread is not so distant from the way Al Qaeda justifies its actions.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Not much to argue there except the assertion that we're the same as our enemies -- that's not so, not with this enemy.

________
Mmm ...........from the outside looking in its getting harder and harder to tell just who the enemy is here.
Putting one soldier/interrogator into a container to interrogate one prisoner/ detainee/terrorist without supervision is an acceptable interrogation technique?

This Iraq war was started with a pre-emptive strike that was based upon false and misleading intelligence. The true reason for starting it is getting a bit blurred with all this torture stuff. Is the fighting to defend bad behaviour or to stop it?

Most believe that the terrorists do pre-emptive strikes based on false and misleading evidence.

Information gained though torture has a tendency to be unreliable. What is done with this info? Is the torture stuff more like a training ground for even more excessive force? Creating lots of soldiers who will do anything to the enemy if told to without question?

Where has the high moral ground gone? if it ever existed.

There must be some concerns re deprogramming these interrogators to prepare them for return to society. If memory serves there was a huge violent crime increase when all the drug addicted US soldiers returned home after their stint in Vietnam.
What'll happen this time round?

Too many ???? that's part of the prob with Iraq ..not enough real solutions just more violence.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Before you can be a "guiding light," you have to survive and thrive. Sometimes in order to just manage that, you have to be pretty darned fierce and nasty.

-

Your reasoning in several posts in this thread is not so distant from the way Al Qaeda justifies its actions.

Whatever.

If you can't tell the difference, I doubt I or anyone here can help you learn how.


-

[Dolph 0]

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That's the absurd part.

If you don't like the fact that I consider myself at war with you and free to kill you in any situation whatsoever, what are you gonna do about it? Declare war on me??!

Nope. I'd try to kill you legally. Once you're captured or some such, I'll gently look the other way as your "interrogation" is outsourced to another nation.

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It's absurd on its face that in WAR, I have to be NICE to you about the way I'm trying to kill you. I'M FUCKING TRYING TO [I]KILL[/I] YOU!!!!!!

Yep, and if you do so illegally - your own may punish you. They might even kill you.

Yet another point showing Yossarian from Catch-22 was right:
the enemy is whoever is trying to kill you

Doesn't matter what side he's on

[Hackb431 0]

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But just to stir some things up, why do I keep hearing how inhumane and unjust and all this other whining from people that to me appear never to have been in a combat situation?

It's easy to sit back and be righteous and just when you are not faced with the stress of life and death every day. Walk a mile in the boots of combat soldiers who have to deal with mayhem every day and see if your outlook changes just a bit.

My son is in Iraq...

Then your son most likely understands what I am trying to say here.

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"

[Hackb431 0]

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cool, so i guess you bought the whole they hate us cause we're free story and voted bush and every thing.......so 1 question if i may. if your commanders told you to take arms against fellow americans on american soil..would you do it?

Well I did vote for Bush, primarily because when your sole income and career is Military the Republican party is know for giving you a raise and more funding. Where as the democratic party is more likely to cut military spending and close bases. Both parties are doing what they feel is best for the country but I will vote for the guy who represents my personal situation the best.

As for the whole they hate us for being free thing....I think they hate us more for being arrogant and their culture and ours conflict both politically and socially. We are the most wealthy and wastefull country out there. I know it pisses me off when I see Rapper gangsters on TV Bling Blingin' when I have bills going unpaid and all I want to do is jump but can't cause rent is due. Same thing in my opinion.

As for taking up arms against fellow Americans...the oath you take upon entrance includes I will defend against all enemies both foriegn and domestic. Hell I fear fellow Americans more so than foriegn terrorists so my answer is given the right situation then Yes I would. Would'nt you if you way of life was threatened?

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"

[kallend 2,070]

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But just to stir some things up, why do I keep hearing how inhumane and unjust and all this other whining from people that to me appear never to have been in a combat situation?

It's easy to sit back and be righteous and just when you are not faced with the stress of life and death every day. Walk a mile in the boots of combat soldiers who have to deal with mayhem every day and see if your outlook changes just a bit.

My son is in Iraq...

Then your son most likely understands what I am trying to say here.

My son was brought up to know that someone else's bad behavior did not justify bad behavior on his part. Apparently you were not brought up that way.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[matthewcline 0]

Your son was raised properly as well as the vast majority of the Men and Women in Uniform.

Once again we as a whole are being charctorized by the actions of a few.

The "condonement" and the actions are wrong and a large number of people may be involved, but they are a small part of the Military and do not represent all of us.

But it is the Human way to attack all for a fews actions. We do it every day to actors, skydivers soldiers, police and politicians. (ok so the last one was a bad example)

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Hackb431 0]