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rasmack

I am thankful I live in a country where this is possible

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Still waiting for you guys to post something about your own countries... :)



I am actually a Dane who migrated to Australia many years ago. Firstly I would not put much crededence to Trae’s negative posts about Australia – he must have a chip on his shoulder.

Australia is a very safe place compared to other countries. Take cities like Sydney and Melbourne with 4.5 and 3.5 million people and compare safety to other city’s around the world of similar size. I feel very safe here.

Denmark is a great country and Copenhagen a beautiful city. However, the “grandma at 4 am on any street” is probably a little over the top. You find gang violence in Denmark and especially in later years crime problems have increased, mostly due to integration problems with migrants. So its not quite as rosy as rasmack describes.

There are lots of good things about Denmark and I always enjoy it when going back to visit.

However there are also bad things: Weather is crap for 6 month of the year*, the taxes are sky high (I used to pay a base of 50% in income tax and a marginal tax of nearly 70%, 25% sales tax. Lots of “luxury taxes” on cars etc.), the public sector is too big (public service and social welfare is good but at the price of a large public sector and taxes). So it is not so much fun if you are a hard working professional with a good income. It’s fine if you are typical middle-income earner with kids as all health and education is free (or close to it).

Australia has its good and bad sides too. I like the lifestyle and the weather and it’s cheap in regard to “social activities” like restaurants etc. (except for Sydney). The country is very beutiful and varied - great to explore.
Also easy to do business in and the taxes are lower then in Europe and higher then in the US. The whole social system is somewhere in between the European welfare system and the US system – which suits me fine.
Actually – I probably rather live in either Denmark or Australia then in the US ;-) (and yes I have spent considerable time in the US).

*to be more specific - the weather is good for 1-2 month a year, it's tolerable for 4 month and absolutely terrible for 6 month. ;)
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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

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You're on double secret probation.



Thank you Ma'am, may I have another!
Thank you Ma'am, may I have another!
...



I love you, Bluto. :D



You are SO fickle.



What did Heinlein say?

"...If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just."

I still love you, John.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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How hard is it to emigrate to Denmark?



Very. That is one of the things I don't like about Denmark.




LMFAO! :D

If we made it as hard to emigrate to the U.S., two things would happen:

- the U.S. would probably be as safe to walk down the streets through at night as you say Denmark is. (Homogenous populations usually are very safe and crime-free.)

- the rest of the world would bitch and curse us and say we were arrogant, selfish assholes for not letting anyone who wants to come here to live and work.


As things stand, we have relaxed immigration policies, relaxed enforcement of those policies we do have, and when the worst of the worst come to live here and drag our society down, we get criticized for having a crime problem.


-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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Denmark is a great country and Copenhagen a beautiful city. However, the “grandma at 4 am on any street” is probably a little over the top. You find gang violence in Denmark and especially in later years crime problems have increased, mostly due to integration problems with migrants. So its not quite as rosy as rasmack describes.

Never for a minute did I think that rasmack's depiction of Denmark as a crime-free utopia was accurate without any mention whatsoever of drawbacks. So I thank you for adding a bit of realism to an otherwise la-la-la kind of discussion.

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There are lots of good things about Denmark and I always enjoy it when going back to visit.

However there are also bad things: Weather is crap for 6 month of the year*, the taxes are sky high (I used to pay a base of 50% in income tax and a marginal tax of nearly 70%, 25% sales tax. Lots of “luxury taxes” on cars etc.), the public sector is too big (public service and social welfare is good but at the price of a large public sector and taxes). So it is not so much fun if you are a hard working professional with a good income. It’s fine if you are typical middle-income earner with kids as all health and education is free (or close to it).



Again, thank you for pointing out the slimy underbelly that everyone pretends is not there.

Are you quite sure "all health and education is free (or close to it)"? You did mention paying 70% income taxes...

Isn't it more fair to say that you DO pay for it? It's just that the actual paying is done by the government, after it has confiscated the majority of the money you earned?

I love it, I really love it, when people pretend that they get stuff "for free" from the government. They conveniently ignore the fact that they are taxed through the nose to give the government the money to buy the stuff that it gives them "for free." :S

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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Dude calm down. America has its "royalty", look at how we idolize celebs. How many magazines are dedicated to show the regular American how the ultra rich and famous live. Hell we even have a channel that's dedicated to them, E!.




My tax money is not taken from my paycheck to buy them palaces. If people want to dig deep into their own pockets and see the movies and buy the merchandise that makes money for the celebrities, that's not something that affects me. You are confusing the matter: celebrities may be held in awe and esteem, but they are NOT "royalty."

And I think that the lives of people who do nothing but fawn over celebrities and watch their every move are pathetic for that reason.


-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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Well, may I suggest you travel to places like this - might be a good learning.

Yes rasmacks description was a little "rosy" but nevertheless Copenhagen is a very safe place - especially if you compare it to US cities.

Secondly - I did not pay 70% in income tax. My marginal rate reached nearly 70. Also, as there are deductions as everywhere else, I probably paid about 55% of my gross income in tax (and I was a high income earner). So thats a lot but quiet a few countries get to that level if you take all taxes into account.

Thirdly - I think I made it quite clear that the price for a very good and free health and eduction system that is "free" for all are very high taxes.
No, I did not like it too much - but on the other hand the population - all of the population - has some of the best health care and eduction available - no matter what their income.

When thinking of the high taxes it also has to be said that people save a lot on not having to take a lot of insurance (health, income protection etc.) as the state is looking after them and that people do not have to put a hell of money aside for their kids college education. They also get a decent state pension when they retire.

So actually - if you take all of the taxes and "cost" into account for an average income earner with family - you will rpobably find that the Dane is not doing so badly compared to an American.

Anyway, that said, I think the Danes have gone too far and I like the Australian system which is somewhere in between the Scandinavian welfare model and the US system.

Key is to understand that every system has its up and down side. What you prefer often depends on your income level and your attitude towards social issues.
---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

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Thirdly - I think I made it quite clear that the price for a very good and free health and eduction system that is "free" for all are very high taxes.



Then please explain why you persist -- as many do, erroneously -- in referring to these services as "free." :S That's nonsensical.

Is it maybe because people who don't pull much of their own economic weight in society get just as much of an entitlement to these services as those who work hard, and therefore pay a lot into the system?

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No, I did not like it too much - but on the other hand the population - all of the population - has some of the best health care and eduction available - no matter what their income.



Is it quite fair, though? Essentially, a bunch of people are carrying a bunch of other people on their backs. What incentive is there for anyone to actually work? Their upkeep is being maintained by others who are willing to...

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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Key is to understand that every system has its up and down side. What you prefer often depends on your income level and your attitude towards social issues.



A very telling statement.

Those who realize they are working their asses off to pay for those who won't -- they dislike the system.

Those who are sitting on their asses with all their needs paid for by the first group -- they fuckin' LOVE it, and wouldn't want it changed. (read: they wouldn't want their free ticket rescinded)

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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Most Danes are productive citizens.

And, as our democracy shows, most seem satisfied with current conditions.

I'm not, but that's me. I think that if things were streamlined a little, I could pay 15-20% less in taxes while still maintaining many of the tax-sponsored benefits.

The reason is that our system is absolutely great for middle income married people with kids, retirees and unemployed people. Those three groups constitute the majority of most western societies.

For me it's not ideal. I'm single, so no tax-related breaks for being married. I have no kids, so no tax breaks + money per kid from the state. I'm relatively young, so I don't use the healthcare system much. I have no car, so road projects are more or less wasted money to me (it takes 3 hours to drive from the northernmost part to the southernmost part, I'd say our roads are good enough).

I did benefit while I studied. Yet given that my parents are high income earners, it'd be a small task for them to save up the same amount - even with taxes as they are today. With corresponding lower taxes if 'free' tuition (free, yeah right) it'd been easier yet.

I take offense at our system when an unemployed dude on benefits earn nearly as much as I do, and I work 60 hour weeks. If you have a lengthy education behind you, your motives are likely an interest in the field rather than monetary, as the way our tax system is constructed, you really won't see a huge increase in after-tax earnings from it.

I take offense at the ease with which our welfare system can be abused. In some cases where two people have a couple of kids and both people are unemployed, if one of them were to get a job, their overall income would actually decline.

And so on and so forth. All these grieviances I take with me when I vote. Once I have done that, I have the choice of accepting the democratic outcome and staying or accepting it and moving.

It's just that things are pretty good here. And since I don't have car etc, I have money to jump for. If I moved, it'd be because of the weather.

I guess it's a Danish trait to whine and complain a lot, then think things through and come up with

Well, come to think of it, this *is* a pretty nice place after all.. B|

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For me it's not ideal. I'm single, so no tax-related breaks for being married. I have no kids, so no tax breaks + money per kid from the state. I'm relatively young, so I don't use the healthcare system much. I have no car, so road projects are more or less wasted money to me (it takes 3 hours to drive from the northernmost part to the southernmost part, I'd say our roads are good enough).



Congratulations! How does it feel to have a government demand more from you -- who DON'T use the resources nearly as much -- to cover for those who DO drain the resources heavily?

I call that patently unfair, and in simple-minded terms over her we call it -- pejoratively -- "commie" or "socialist" or "ultra-leftist." And it sickens those of us who feel that people are treated unfairly if they are forced to carry the weight of others who won't do so.


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I take offense at our system when an unemployed dude on benefits earn nearly as much as I do, and I work 60 hour weeks...

I take offense at the ease with which our welfare system can be abused.



I'm glad you at least recognize and oppose it. Seems many people's senses are so screwed up, they defend such inequity to the death.

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And so on and so forth. All these grieviances I take with me when I vote. Once I have done that, I have the choice of accepting the democratic outcome and staying or accepting it and moving.



Given that in most societies, the lower and middle income people FAR outnumber the upper income people (who pay a larger percentage of the income they work for in taxes), it seems virtually impossble for a popular vote to be able to rectify this deplorably unjust state of affairs.

Whether this system continues to be employed should be a matter of right and wrong, not a matter of whether those slackers who are benefiting from it can out-vote those on whose backs the system is built.

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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My tax money is not taken from my paycheck to buy them palaces.



[sarchasm]Nope.. the Bush Family and the Cheney Family is not profiting at all from tax money... so tell me what companies.. that they own or are deriving benefits from( even deferred.. still means they get the money.. just later)... are not profiting[/sarcasm]

They are part of royalty in this country.. so get over it.

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... “grandma at 4 am on any street” is probably a little over the top. You find gang violence in Denmark...



Actually I stand by that statement the way it was put. Now, there are gangs of typically young turks and arabs. They would not consider anyone's grandmother a target (no worries RhondaLea :P). If I am drunk in town on Friday night, they might consider me a target. Lots more respect to be gained from beating me up.
HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

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I was trying to point out that we all have different things to be proud of. I completely agree that all societies also have problems, but could we - just this once - try to look a bit on the positive side? We have enough whining and complaining going on in here.

I can find plenty of things that you as an American could be proud of, but I have the gut feeling that you are probably not going to post those things. If you do, however, I promise not to beat you down on it, but to post what I can in support.
HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

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"but could we - just this once - try to look a bit on the positive side?"
Not just a no, but a 'hell no!'
I mean what would be the fun in that?.....;)
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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long but pretty true (apologies if its been seen before but I thought it was quite appropriate): ...

CLASSIC VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the Ant is warm and well fed, the shivering grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

THE END


THE BRITISH VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. So far, so good, eh?

The shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know Why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others less fortunate, like him, are cold and starving.

The BBC shows up to provide live coverage of the shivering grasshopper, with cuts to a video of the ant in his comfortable warm home in Hampstead with a table laden with food, the British are stunned that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so while others have plenty.

The Liberal Party, the Respect Party, the Transvestites With Starving Babies Party, the Single Lesbian One Eyed Mothers Party and the Coalition Against Hard Work demonstrate in front of the ant's house. The BBC, interrupting a Rastafarian cultural festival special from Grimsby with breaking news, broadcasts them singing "We Shall Overcome."

Ken Livingstone laments in an interview with Panorama that the ant has got rich off the backs of grasshoppers, and calls for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his "fair share". In response, the Labour Government drafts the Economic Equity and Grasshopper Anti-Discrimination Act, retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant's taxes are reassessed, and he is also fined for failing to hire grasshoppers as helpers. Without enough money to pay the fine and his newly imposed retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by Camden Council.

The ant moves to France, and starts a successful AgriBiz company [funded by the EU] - although within weeks, his business is threatened with Compulsory purchase by the state unless he marries
a French ant.

The BBC later shows the now fat grasshopper finishing up the last of the ant's food, though Spring is still months away, while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he hasn't bothered to maintain it. Inadequate government funding is blamed, Diane Abbot is appointed to head a commission of enquiry that will cost £10,000,000.

The grasshopper is soon dead of a drug overdose, the Guardian blames it on the obvious failure of government to address the root causes of despair arising from social inequity.

The abandoned house is taken over by a Gang of immigrant spiders, praised by the government for enriching Britain's multicultural diversity, who promptly set up a heroin/prostitution operation and
terrorise the community.

THE END .

:)

~~~ London Skydivers ~~~

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My Danish friends used to complain about "all the gypsies", by which they meant Turks. That used to make me cringe.



The above quote does not seem to be consistent with what you say in your next paragraph:

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It is a very tolerant one (society)


People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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I think that (a) my friends were not necessarily representative of society (they were a whiny lot), and (b) while some mainstream Danes would say "the gypsies are the cause of gang violence", they would then go on to say, "so we should fund further initiatives to give them better housing, education, etc." I never heard anyone say, "the gypsies are the cause of our problems, let's have fewer of them."

I think here's the key to understanding it: the Danes were "tolerant" but not "assimilative".

For example, on a per capita basis, Scandinavian countries spend more on foreign aid and take in more refugees and asylum seekers than we in the US do.

However, foreigners in Denmark aren't assimilated into becoming "Danes." They may be Danish citizens, but few Danes would point to someone of Turkish descent and say, "ah, that's a Dane." The Turkish minority are treated well by the government and by people in general, but they are a sort of permanent alternate culture, not assimilated as part of the mainstream culture.

Compare this with the US, where most people consider that immigrants will be (sooner or later) integrated into "mainstream culture" and are all considered "Americans".

After all, three generations ago, my family would have been an immigrant one -- now I don't feel "Irish" in any sense of the word, except for my genetic-based love of beer and redheads.

Admittedly, sometimes it takes longer (multigenerational assimilation), but generally it happens in the US, sooner or later. Yes, I know there are exceptions.

That's not the same in Denmark, from what I saw. But this is just my perspective on it. I can be shown to be wrong.

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Congratulations! How does it feel to have a government demand more from you -- who DON'T use the resources nearly as much -- to cover for those who DO drain the resources heavily?



As I said, not ideal. The healthcare bit I'm OK with. Having to pay for other people's kids - people with higher income than me - that I ain't ok with. Kids are a choice. Healthcare generally isn't.

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I call that patently unfair, and in simple-minded terms over her we call it -- pejoratively -- "commie" or "socialist" or "ultra-leftist." And it sickens those of us who feel that people are treated unfairly if they are forced to carry the weight of others who won't do so.



For me it depends on choice vs. necessity, as the health care/kid bit demonstrates. I don't mind giving some to have universal healthcare. I do mind that I have to help pay for Mr Average Family Guy's BabyWagon car. Because I can't afford one.

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I'm glad you at least recognize and oppose it. Seems many people's senses are so screwed up, they defend such inequity to the death.



For me it's about trying to keep my mind open and asking "is this fair?". Keeping nationalism out of it is a good idea, because the concepts should stand or fall on their own merit. Many people defend it not so much from a logical point of view, but rather out of some sort of national pride or because they directly benefit from it. The latter is fine - you vote for what is best for you.

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Given that in most societies, the lower and middle income people FAR outnumber the upper income people (who pay a larger percentage of the income they work for in taxes), it seems virtually impossble for a popular vote to be able to rectify this deplorably unjust state of affairs.



An accurate assesment. Here, the middleclass is by far the largest group (wealth redistribution, i.e taking from the rich and giving to the poor) ensures that. I really could use more money. Then again, I can get by on less than half of what I earn. However, I'm a bit atypical in the sense that I have very few expenses and live a relatively modest life. I simply cannot understand how others in my situation can get by and afford car, big apartment/house etc. Must be loans.

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Whether this system continues to be employed should be a matter of right and wrong, not a matter of whether those slackers who are benefiting from it can out-vote those on whose backs the system is built.



As long as there is a slight benefit from having a job, I think most will work. Gives ya something to do.

The thing is it's not just slackers who benefit - families with kids and retirees get a good amount of the redistributed wealth. The status quo is unlikely to change. I can move, but I like it here. If you could see through the socialist-capitalistic system and see the other side, I'm pretty sure you would too. It's pretty laid back, yet productive here. No real class differences compared to most other countries. We whine about very small things, because that's what we have to whine about.

Fucking weather.

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I look around at SC. Same angry and bemused characters, all jabbering at each other and not necessarily (or generally) listening back.

They're all part of the rather messy political process we have. And I'm glad to live in a country that celebrates that.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I think that (a) my friends were not necessarily representative of society (they were a whiny lot), and (b) while some mainstream Danes would say "the gypsies are the cause of gang violence", they would then go on to say, "so we should fund further initiatives to give them better housing, education, etc." I never heard anyone say, "the gypsies are the cause of our problems, let's have fewer of them."



You know, when I hear that people are engaging in criminal acts, it is not my first reaction to say, "What can I, or society, GIVE them to make them acquiesce to the law?"

One should acquiesce to the law because that is what one does in a civilized society. The law, and those who enforce it, and those others who abide by it, should not have to kiss the ASSES of those who do not until they deign to grace us by doing so. >:(

So the idea of "GIVING" them better housing, education, etc. is ridiculous to me. You don't deal with people who act out and break the law by scrambling to see how much largesse you can lavish on them, and how you can spend everyone else's money to appease them out of hurting people. Who's "GIVING" me some entitlement to housing and education and employment and stuff, just to keep me from committing criminal acts?

Funny, when I think of criminals, I surely DO think, "Let's have fewer of them."

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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I look around at SC. Same angry and bemused characters, all jabbering at each other and not necessarily (or generally) listening back.

They're all part of the rather messy political process we have. And I'm glad to live in a country that celebrates that.

Wendy W.



Do you say that to contrast the "rather messy political process WE have" with that of any other country's political process?

Like the countries where political rivals are kidnapped, tortured, and murdered? Or just shot from a passing motorcycle?

Or maybe Britain's Parliament, where "gentlemen" heckle and shout down and BOO speakers with whom they disagree? (I have never heard of that happening -- much less with regularity in the U.S. Congress.)

Or how about in places like some Asian countries where I have seen news reports of BRAWLS breaking out on the legislature floor!?

Just which countries are the ones that should be showing the U.S. how to behave?

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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