Kris 0 #26 February 3, 2006 QuoteIf I were her husband I would put a bullet in that bitch... First of all their would never have been a trial of that happened to my kids.. If only she'd looked into a mirror and smiled a few minutes each day, eh' Rhino?Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flynlois 0 #27 February 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteIs she a "cunt" who deserves a bullet in the head? No. You've opened that right up for someone to suggest "drowning." - Only to decerebrate imbeciles who are sub-human. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #28 February 3, 2006 QuoteOnly to decerebrate imbeciles who are sub-human. ...Like Ms. Yates?Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #29 February 3, 2006 Not directed at Peej, just the encapsulation of the thoughts. QuoteWhen that illness causes them to be a tremendous danger to those around them, they need to be removed from society. Permanently. Whether that would be by imprisonment or execution is open for discussion. Frankly, she belongs in a mental health facility, possibly for the rest of her life. I am generally very leary of those who claim insanity as a defense. Most of the cases I research that have this claim I think are so full of shit they'd fertilize an entire farm in one fell swoop (Buono, for example...). However, after reading her history, and seeing the absolutely horrific treatment she received at both the hands of her husband as well as the medical community (her last Dr. was apparently sued for malpractice by others, and perhaps as well as the Yates family. Not sure about that), and seeing the incredible deterioration that happened to her, I do not believe that she was in full grasp of her sensibilities. I have read other stories about women who claim to have PPD, and don't believe them. But I've seen enough on Andrea Yates to see that the diagnosis is very likely correct. As such, it is an illness, and should be treated as such. One of the biggest issues in society is the understanding of mental illness and the proper treatment of it. It costs many people their lives, and often lives of those who love them, or are around them. I have not forgotten the children; I cannot. They were victims, and suffered a frightening death. But I also have not forgotten the woman who is sick in a way that many people dismiss out of hand. My sister in law experienced not post partum psychosis but depression to such an extent that intervention was necessary. I will not go into details, but it got dicey there for a bit. Post partum depression/psychosis is real. It kills. It is treatable. And it is not the sufferer's fault. Mental illness is hard to believe at times, because there is no outward manifestation of such. It is not bullshit, it is not made up, it is not a character defect. What it is is terrifying and horrible for all involved. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #30 February 3, 2006 QuoteIf I were her husband I would put a bullet in that bitch... First of all their would never have been a trial of that happened to my kids.. Rhino Wrong. YOU would have been tried for murdering your murderous wife. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #31 February 3, 2006 QuoteFrankly, she belongs in a mental health facility, possibly for the rest of her life. No "possibly" about it. If you murder someone and you are not guilty of murder because you are "insane," given that we cannot "cure" an insane mind, you bet your ass it MUST be "for the rest of your life." Those who take lives (criminally) do not deserve to live. It is that simple. But if you are spared execution because you are mentally ill, then the only fair thing is to deny you freedom for the rest of your life. "We can't kill you? Fine. We're gonna confine you." --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #32 February 3, 2006 I'm not automatically disagreeing with you, Peej, but I am curious why you believe that there is no cure for her sort of insanity? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #33 February 3, 2006 Because if we had it, there wouldn't be so fucking many crazy people running around. I think that murdering five OF HER OWN children is a demonstration of how far to her core her insanity went. It wasn't a beating. It wasn't destruction of property. It wasn't even (for christ's sake) "just" mutilation! She fucking DROWNED THEM BY HER OWN HAND, ONE BY ONE. She didn't even do two and then say, "Holy shit, what have I done?!" and then stop. She did ALL FIVE. I am just really really skeptical that "that crazy" can be cured. We have professional psychologists tinker with people's minds when those minds are FAR LESS bad-off, with very limited success. To suggest that murderous psychosis is "curable" when fuckin' kleptomania is not even able to be cured with swift certainty is rather like saying you're a mechanic who can't change oil and get it right every time but you can rebuild a transmission that's seized and burnt out with no problem, reliably. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #34 February 3, 2006 Peej, I do understand where you're coming from. However, I disagree to an extent. And I really don't like getting YELLED at. If you're not interested in PPD, and understanding both what causes it and how it can be mitigated, and are SIMPLY YELLING just to BE HEARD, then rest assured I both hear you, and understand your position. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #35 February 3, 2006 In the case of PPD/PPP, many cases resolve themselves after the hormones even out. The cure is what she was told before. Don't have any more kids, and it won't happen again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #36 February 3, 2006 QuoteIn the case of PPD/PPP, many cases resolve themselves after the hormones even out. The cure is what she was told before. Don't have any more kids, and it won't happen again. Imagine if we made that a standard policy: Judge: You murdered a man by stabbing him to death in a department store after getting high on crack and drinking a twelve-pack of beer. Man: Well, judge, it was the combination of crack and beer and the fact that the guy was, well, lookin' at me funny... It just set me over the edge. Judge: OH! Okay! I'm sorry. Well, you are to be released on your own recogniscence under the provision that you never drink beer while you are smoking crack again. That's how it happened before, so obviously the public is safe as long as you stay away from that particular trigger! --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #37 February 3, 2006 QuoteIn the case of PPD/PPP, many cases resolve themselves after the hormones even out. The cure is what she was told before. Don't have any more kids, and it won't happen again. Reading this and a previous post of yours, am I mistaken that you recommend a relative brief course of institutalization for the purpose of obtaining theraputic med levels and hormones, followed by release under med supervision?----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #38 February 3, 2006 Oh, come on, of course! Murderers are just like you and me -- they're not bad people, they're just misunderstood! --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #39 February 3, 2006 Quote No "possibly" about it. If you murder someone and you are not guilty of murder because you are "insane," given that we cannot "cure" an insane mind, you bet your ass it MUST be "for the rest of your life." Umm, we don't even give life sentences out to a large number of the sane murderers. Do it in a car in a so called act of road rage and it might be only a few years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #40 February 3, 2006 I suspect that releasing her from a supervised environment would mean her death. There's not much doubt in my mind that even, and perhaps especially, if she were in her right mind, Andrea Yates' first and only act upon being released would be to kill herself. Keeping her alive is probably a far more cruel punishment than giving her a quick death. Nonetheless, while I believe it would be her right to take her own life, I don't believe that, as punishments go, executing her is proper. She was abused, and as a direct result of the several kinds of abuse she suffered (in the absense of the pregnancy she was told to avoid, she would not have been subject to PPD/PPP), she became psychotic. The outcome of her psychosis is horrifying, but she is also a victim. Her husband failed in his responsibility toward the whole family, and because he was in his right mind, he is far more accountable than she is. Without his influence, she would never have killed those children. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #41 February 3, 2006 QuoteQuote No "possibly" about it. If you murder someone and you are not guilty of murder because you are "insane," given that we cannot "cure" an insane mind, you bet your ass it MUST be "for the rest of your life." Umm, we don't even give life sentences out to a large number of the sane murderers. So... recognition of that -- and of how wrong it is -- is reason to not start now? I don't get it. Are you defending not giving life sentences -- if you won't advocate execution -- for murderers? --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #42 February 3, 2006 Just my $0.02, having been on both sides of the mental health fence... Self intoxication / self induced insanity can't (shouldn't) be any defence. A major problem with the modern drugs used to treat mental illness is that they're VERY effective - so effective that once on them the sufferer becomes functional and fit to be in society unsupervised. They're normal, and the result of this is that all too often, without close supervision they try stopping their medication. & don't realise their behaviour is becoming abherrant as the drugs wear off! All too often, no-one bothers until their behaviour deteriorates to the point where there are serious consequences for others! IF this woman was truly insane at the time of the crime, then what she did would have made perfect sense to her. As far as she was concerned, she was doing the right thing. The REAL problem is that since it's going into an adversarial Criminal-Justice System, any attempt at a clear & focussed enquiry into this incident will go straight out of the window! One team of lawyers will do their utmost to prove she's an evil vicious cold-blooded premeditated murderess who should be executed, while another team of lawyers will do their utmost to show that she's a complete innocent who should be set free into society without any conditions! AND... Out of that, 12 folk, the majority of whom are only there because they're too dim to dodge Jury service are supposed to get to the truth & rule accordingly!!? At least it'll make good TV for a while. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #43 February 3, 2006 What she said. Each and every post in this thread. Andrea Yates was a very sick woman, who was told "if you just believe hard enough everything will be OK." Turns out it didn't work that way. In his defense, I think Rusty didn't really think anything was going to happen; I think he just believed that if you believe hard enough everything will be OK. But that's not true. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #44 February 3, 2006 QuoteIf only she'd looked into a mirror and smiled a few minutes each day, eh' Rhino?UnimpressedCrazy Quote You just made my day Excellent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #45 February 3, 2006 Being insane doesn’t mean you should not be punished. She deserves to die no questions. She killed 5 people who I can say 100% that were inocent. You can not say that in most murders. I love how people are trying to blame her husband. We agree as a society that woman and men are equal right? Why is it whenever shit hits the fan it was because her husband was abusing the poor week woman? Witch is it? Do you want sympathy because you are week or respect because you are strong? Please make up your minds once and for all. This having your cake and eating it to BS is too much sometimes.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #46 February 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteIn the case of PPD/PPP, many cases resolve themselves after the hormones even out. The cure is what she was told before. Don't have any more kids, and it won't happen again. Reading this and a previous post of yours, am I mistaken that you recommend a relative brief course of institutalization for the purpose of obtaining theraputic med levels and hormones, followed by release under med supervision? No. I'd recommend that she be institutionalized and placed under the care of doctors who can treat her appropriately. If she was truly suffering from an extreme case of PPP, as evidence seems to indicate, I think the only appropriate verdict would be not guilty by reason of insanity. From nolo.com: "What makes a crime a crime? In most cases, an act is a crime because the person committing it intended to do something that most people would consider wrong. This mental state is generally referred to as "mens rea," Latin for "guilty mind." The "mens rea" concept is based on a belief that people should be punished only when they have acted in a way that makes them morally blameworthy. In the legal system's eyes, people who intentionally engage in the behavior prohibited by a law are morally blameworthy." If Andrea Yates really did have PPP, and evidence indicates that she did, she was hallucinating, hearing voices, and completely out of touch with reality, similar in some ways to a schizophrenic. A witness in the original trial tried to indicate that Yates had the "mens rea" for the crime by implying that it was premeditated, because a law and order episode showed a woman with PPP drowning her kids. However, no episode like that existed, which completely ruins the prosecution's "pre-meditated" argument that led to her conviction and sentence. "Yates never saw a woman kill her children and thus could not have devised a copy-cat killing with a plan to fake an illness. (In fact, her years of coping with mental illness were well-documented and attested to by numerous mental health experts.) So the case presented by the prosecution was based on an idea with no factual basis." -crimelibrary.com The prosecution used the episode of law and order to try to prove that Andrea Yates knew what she was doing was wrong. Without that television show, the evidence seems to indicate that she was insane, had no idea what she was really doing, and firmly convinced that her actions were appropriate. She'll probably end up in a mental institution for the rest of her life, as she had documented psychological problems in addition to PPP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #47 February 3, 2006 QuoteBeing insane doesn’t mean you should not be punished. From a legal perspective, you're right in many cases. As long as the suspect knew what they were doing, and knew what they were doing was wrong, insanity is not an appropriate defense, and that's why the insanity defense is used in less than 1% of murder trials, and successful in less than a quarter of cases when used. However, evidence indicates that this was probably not the case in Andrea Yates' situation. If she truly had no idea about her actions and their consequences, our legal system doesn't allow us to hold her responsible for that. It does, however, allow for her to be ordered to an institution where she can receive proper treatment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #48 February 3, 2006 I just don’t see depression as a good reason for murder. I can’t understand why any one would stand up for her. I see crazy as crazy not acts normal but gets sad sometimes. We all get sad some times some more then others. People really need to start caring about the victims. The 5 young kids she murdered one by one. It made me sick to my stomach that some woman’s groups were trying to find excuses for her within the first 48 hours she had murdered her kids. We live in a very sexist world indeed.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 4 #49 February 3, 2006 QuoteI just don’t see depression as a good reason for murder. She was psychotic. QuoteIt made me sick to my stomach that some woman’s groups were trying to find excuses for her within the first 48 hours she had murdered her kids. We live in a very sexist world indeed. It's not that. No one wants to believe that a mother could kill her own children. That's threatening to us all. The easiest way to deal with it is to explain it away. We do that with most things. Nothing new there. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites juanesky 0 #50 February 3, 2006 Some will argue that is not true, and it is indeed, part of the problem. Reversed sexism, one mindset where women are innocent victims all the time, and men the miscreants. The only thing a man has to do is say he does not like the extreme turn feminism has taken, to be seen as misogynystic. Sometimes they do (kill their off spring), get over it, and realize it. Men and women can both be really evil and violent."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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Darius11 12 #45 February 3, 2006 Being insane doesn’t mean you should not be punished. She deserves to die no questions. She killed 5 people who I can say 100% that were inocent. You can not say that in most murders. I love how people are trying to blame her husband. We agree as a society that woman and men are equal right? Why is it whenever shit hits the fan it was because her husband was abusing the poor week woman? Witch is it? Do you want sympathy because you are week or respect because you are strong? Please make up your minds once and for all. This having your cake and eating it to BS is too much sometimes.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #46 February 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteIn the case of PPD/PPP, many cases resolve themselves after the hormones even out. The cure is what she was told before. Don't have any more kids, and it won't happen again. Reading this and a previous post of yours, am I mistaken that you recommend a relative brief course of institutalization for the purpose of obtaining theraputic med levels and hormones, followed by release under med supervision? No. I'd recommend that she be institutionalized and placed under the care of doctors who can treat her appropriately. If she was truly suffering from an extreme case of PPP, as evidence seems to indicate, I think the only appropriate verdict would be not guilty by reason of insanity. From nolo.com: "What makes a crime a crime? In most cases, an act is a crime because the person committing it intended to do something that most people would consider wrong. This mental state is generally referred to as "mens rea," Latin for "guilty mind." The "mens rea" concept is based on a belief that people should be punished only when they have acted in a way that makes them morally blameworthy. In the legal system's eyes, people who intentionally engage in the behavior prohibited by a law are morally blameworthy." If Andrea Yates really did have PPP, and evidence indicates that she did, she was hallucinating, hearing voices, and completely out of touch with reality, similar in some ways to a schizophrenic. A witness in the original trial tried to indicate that Yates had the "mens rea" for the crime by implying that it was premeditated, because a law and order episode showed a woman with PPP drowning her kids. However, no episode like that existed, which completely ruins the prosecution's "pre-meditated" argument that led to her conviction and sentence. "Yates never saw a woman kill her children and thus could not have devised a copy-cat killing with a plan to fake an illness. (In fact, her years of coping with mental illness were well-documented and attested to by numerous mental health experts.) So the case presented by the prosecution was based on an idea with no factual basis." -crimelibrary.com The prosecution used the episode of law and order to try to prove that Andrea Yates knew what she was doing was wrong. Without that television show, the evidence seems to indicate that she was insane, had no idea what she was really doing, and firmly convinced that her actions were appropriate. She'll probably end up in a mental institution for the rest of her life, as she had documented psychological problems in addition to PPP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #47 February 3, 2006 QuoteBeing insane doesn’t mean you should not be punished. From a legal perspective, you're right in many cases. As long as the suspect knew what they were doing, and knew what they were doing was wrong, insanity is not an appropriate defense, and that's why the insanity defense is used in less than 1% of murder trials, and successful in less than a quarter of cases when used. However, evidence indicates that this was probably not the case in Andrea Yates' situation. If she truly had no idea about her actions and their consequences, our legal system doesn't allow us to hold her responsible for that. It does, however, allow for her to be ordered to an institution where she can receive proper treatment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #48 February 3, 2006 I just don’t see depression as a good reason for murder. I can’t understand why any one would stand up for her. I see crazy as crazy not acts normal but gets sad sometimes. We all get sad some times some more then others. People really need to start caring about the victims. The 5 young kids she murdered one by one. It made me sick to my stomach that some woman’s groups were trying to find excuses for her within the first 48 hours she had murdered her kids. We live in a very sexist world indeed.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #49 February 3, 2006 QuoteI just don’t see depression as a good reason for murder. She was psychotic. QuoteIt made me sick to my stomach that some woman’s groups were trying to find excuses for her within the first 48 hours she had murdered her kids. We live in a very sexist world indeed. It's not that. No one wants to believe that a mother could kill her own children. That's threatening to us all. The easiest way to deal with it is to explain it away. We do that with most things. Nothing new there. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #50 February 3, 2006 Some will argue that is not true, and it is indeed, part of the problem. Reversed sexism, one mindset where women are innocent victims all the time, and men the miscreants. The only thing a man has to do is say he does not like the extreme turn feminism has taken, to be seen as misogynystic. Sometimes they do (kill their off spring), get over it, and realize it. Men and women can both be really evil and violent."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
