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TrophyHusband

what would the founding fathers think? (another abortion thread)

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if you could go back in time and ask the founding fathers if they thought that abortion was a god-given right, what would they say?

my guess is that they would be appalled by the idea and say absolutely not. i have nothing to back that up, its just my guess.

since this will turn into an abortion debate anyway, i'll give my opinion. please answer the first question before entering the unavoidable abortion debate.

i feel that until a fetus is viable, meaning that if born it could live on its own, it is a parasite and a part of a woman's body. that said, she has the right to terminate the pregnancy anytime before it is viable. the million dollar question is "what is viable?" that i'm open to debating. i'm sure there are plenty of people who agree with me so far, but our opinions would diverge when we got into the viavility debate.


"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

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I am not going to get into the moral abortion issue, but I will address the 'founding fathers' assuming you mean should the law dictate what a woman can do..

well I see that as a two way street. If the law can tell a woman she must give birth against her will, I see the flip side to that as the law being able to sterilize a woman against her will.


can - worms - opened
Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...


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One way to go about this business as a man is to think in the following terms:

Imagine if whuffo's would have a say on skydiving matters. They'd be given the power to legislate and dictate terms. They'd never skydive but still get a big piece of the decision pie. Skydivers would be directly affected.

Now apply this to abortion. Men will never have babies, yet they want a substantial part of the decision pie. It can never personally apply directly to a man's body - only by proxy, through a woman.

Both whuffos and men will have valuable input. Their opinion should be heard.

But how 'bout letting those directly affected make the very hard choices?

Just a starting point.

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I am not going to get into the moral abortion issue, but I will address the 'founding fathers' assuming you mean should the law dictate what a woman can do..



no, you missed it. i'm not at all asking what the law should dictate, i'm asked what you think the founding fathers would have to say about the subject. i like your analogy though. court appointed sterilization could be a fun debate all by itself. maybe in another thread.


"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

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How 'bout letting those directly affected make the very hard choices?



Men are directly affected, because it is also their unborn child. The father may want it to live.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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I guess I did miss your point then. I thought you referenced them since they wrote the 'laws of the land'.

If you are wondering what they would say from an individual perspective.....I am thinking there are a few of them who wished the slaves they raped hadn't given birth :o:D:D
Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...


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my guess is that they would be appalled by the idea and say absolutely not. i have nothing to back that up, its just my guess.


------I agree

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i feel that until a fetus is viable, meaning that if born it could live on its own,



How many babies could live on their own even if born full term. Leave them lay where they are and they will die. The biggest problem that I see is if certain people could keep their legs together (and certain others wouldn't work so hard to get them apart) a lot of deaths wouldn't take place. Taking responsiblity for actions would take care of a lot of the problem also.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

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How many babies could live on their own even if born full term. Leave them lay where they are and they will die.


to clarify, by on their own i mean without large amounts of medical intervention. the amount of medical intervention falls into that grey area i mentioned earlier.


"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

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Actually, at the end of the eighteenth century abortion wasn't a crime until quickening (i.e. when you begin to feel little flutter kicks and the like). It wasn't criminalized until the 1820's, and then only state by state.

After that it was quite common, but not necessarily effective due to the overall knowledge base in medicine.

Based on that, I'd have to say they probably were in line with everyone else of the era, and figured it was OK until quickening.

Houghton Mifflin chapter on abortion.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Actually, at the end of the eighteenth century abortion wasn't a crime until quickening (i.e. when you begin to feel little flutter kicks and the like).



I think that is reasonable position and likely would have been supported by the founders.

If it is nothing more than a 'choice' a minute before birth would have happened, then why not a minute after birth? The distinction of being in or out of the body is not important, in my opinion. I think very few people would say that if it is inside the body of the woman it can't be considered murder.

To call it 'choice' is such an awful euphemism.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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if you could go back in time and ask the founding fathers if they thought that abortion was a god-given right, what would they say?

my guess is that they would be appalled by the idea and say absolutely not. i have nothing to back that up, its just my guess.



They might be appalled, but while some principles survive the test of time relatively unchanged, others evolve to the point where whatever attitudes existed 225 years ago are irrelevant to today.
They'd also likely be appalled at a Jewish woman and a black man as justices of the United States Supreme Court.

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i feel that until a fetus is viable, meaning that if born it could live on its own, it is a parasite and a part of a woman's body. that said, she has the right to terminate the pregnancy anytime before it is viable. the million dollar question is "what is viable?" that i'm open to debating.



That is a million-dollar question. "Viability" is a slippery standard to use. Let's bear in mind that what viability was in years past is different than what it is today, which is different from what it will be in the future. In my mind, Great Visionary that I am, I see a day when medical technology will eventually advance to the point where a zygote/fetus can survive outside the woman's body from the instant of conception, and be able to be artificially incubated and nourished until "full term". That will certainly affect the debate.

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Well we are way passed the time of the founding fatheres and have come a long way.

By that logic we should also ask what the founding fathers tought about slavery? So does that mean it was a bad idea to make slavery illigle.

Well we are way passed the time of the founding fathers and have come a long way.

By that logic we should also ask what the founding fathers thought about slavery? So does that mean it was a bad idea to make slavery illegal?
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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Note that quickening is between 18 and 24 weeks of gestation.

I don't think there are a lot of people who think that the moment before birth is an OK time to abort. I'm quite firmly pro-choice, and I don't think so.

A third trimester abortion is usually done to protect the life of the mother, or because the fetus is not viable (e.g. no brain). Few disagree with the first, and there's a lot of debate about what "non-viable" means. Obviously that's not universal, but it's quite general.

But pregnancy and childbirth are hard on a woman physically, emotionally, and socially. They're really not as hard on the man, unless he's both nice and lives with the woman, and even then he only thinks he's felt as much :ph34r:.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I don't think there are a lot of people who think that the moment before birth is an OK time to abort. I'm quite firmly pro-choice, and I don't think so.



I think that the leaders of the abortion rights organizations would favor a no restriction policy.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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if you could go back in time and ask the founding fathers if they thought that abortion was a god-given right, what would they say?

my guess is that they would be appalled by the idea and say absolutely not. i have nothing to back that up, its just my guess.



Probably. Of course, they didn't even think voting was a god given right women should have.

But Wendy addressed it best with historical information.

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I think that the leaders of the abortion rights organizations would favor a no restriction policy.

That depends on the leaders. I do know from reading their material that they favor no restrictions on abortions that are deemed to be medically necessary.

Here's the NARAL (National Abortion Rights Action League) mission statement:
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NARAL Pro-Choice America's mission is to develop and sustain a constituency that uses the political process to guarantee every woman the right to make personal decisions regarding the full range of reproductive choices, including preventing unintended pregnancy, bearing healthy children, and choosing legal abortion.

They don't say exactly when they consider there to be a cutoff, but dang -- I'm in favor of the vast majority of that stuff too.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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if you could go back in time and ask the founding fathers if they thought that abortion was a god-given right, what would they say?

my guess is that they would be appalled by the idea and say absolutely not. i have nothing to back that up, its just my guess.


Probably right.
And then if you also told them you could make light in a glass tube, get in a flying machine, jump out further up than they can see and float to the ground with a sheet over your head and land unharmed, my guess is they would club you over the head, call you a demon and burn you at the stake. While you're at it why don't you tell them women should be allowed to work and vote, black people should be free and Indians are really good people if you just get to know them.
Give it a try and check back in.:|

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I am not going to get into the moral abortion issue, but I will address the 'founding fathers' assuming you mean should the law dictate what a woman can do..



no, you missed it. i'm not at all asking what the law should dictate, i'm asked what you think the founding fathers would have to say about the subject. i like your analogy though. court appointed sterilization could be a fun debate all by itself. maybe in another thread.



The founding fathers considered women and blacks to be chattel. I don't see that their moral views are in the least bit relevant.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Men are directly affected, because it is also their unborn child. The father may want it to live.



I'll direct you to a quote in my post:

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It can never personally apply directly to a man's body - only by proxy, through a woman.



Directly affect vs affect by proxy. The man doesn't have anything happen physically to him, to his body. He is affected indirectly through the woman.

Whuffos may want influence on skydiving since it interferes with their bubble of reality - noise, relative going in and so forth.

As I said, I believe both whuffos and men have valuable input and should not be disregarded. Also, it was a starting point to operate from. I'm not saying whhat I posted was the end argument.

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I recon Thomas Jefferson might not have objected to some of his slaves/nannies getting abortions in order to keep the Jefferson population under control.:|

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

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