RhondaLea 4 #276 February 18, 2006 QuoteNo offense, but this is irrelevant. In the 200 year history of this country's existence, has marriage ever meant anything other than a man and a woman marrying? What about the remaining four-thousand odd years since God created man, MB? Don't they count? Also, the age old question: if God dislikes gays so much, why did he make them? I know GTA already addressed this in his own inimitable way, but inquiring minds want the answers to these questions. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #277 February 18, 2006 QuoteWhat about the remaining four-thousand odd years since God created man, MB? QuoteIn Cat's Cradle, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., created a new religion, Bokononism. The holy scripture of Bokononism was the ever-growing "Books of Bokonon", The Fourteenth Book [ A short book with a long title. ] Title: What Can a Thoughtful Man Hope for Mankind on Earth, Given the Experience of the Past Million Years? Only verse: Nothing. Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #278 February 18, 2006 QuoteQuote... In the 200 year history of this country's existence, has marriage ever meant anything other than a man and a woman marrying? Not so far....there's a lot that we haven't got right yet though linz So husband + wife = family wouldn't be considered as "getting it right"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #279 February 18, 2006 QuoteAlso, the age old question: if God dislikes gays so much, why did he make them? If I ever meet one, I'll ask. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #280 February 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote... In the 200 year history of this country's existence, has marriage ever meant anything other than a man and a woman marrying? Not so far....there's a lot that we haven't got right yet though linz So husband + wife = family wouldn't be considered as "getting it right"? Only partly right. A family can be many other combinations too. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gofast_ER 0 #281 February 18, 2006 wow there are alot of responsed to this post. I'll add mine but its so far down the list might not be read...though i doubt people really care. My thoughts are Who the hell cares if a dude and another dude wanna get married? Or a chick and chick for that matter??? how does it affect you one way or the other? Only that you wanna push your religious beliefs on other people. Then again i am a liberal californian tree huggin hippy. I think we just need to let people be what they want and have the lifstlye they want as long as it does no harm to the general population.I may not agree with what you have to say but i'll defend to the death your right to say it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #282 February 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteJust listen to the calming power of my sig line and everything will be okay. It's going to take a lot more than your sig line to calm me. What else do you have to offer? rl ummmm....massage? Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 4 #283 February 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt's going to take a lot more than your sig line to calm me. What else do you have to offer? ummmm....massage? That's a start. If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Keith 0 #284 February 18, 2006 So physically abusive husband + alcoholic wife = family would be considered as "getting it right"? Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #285 February 19, 2006 QuoteOnly partly right. A family can be many other combinations too. But only if the definition is changed. Like marriage. Which is what the debate is all about... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #286 February 19, 2006 QuoteSo physically abusive husband + alcoholic wife = family would be considered as "getting it right"? I think you're reaching. You don't change the definition of a foundational concept because of abuses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Keith 0 #287 February 19, 2006 No I'm not reaching. You're talking in circles. The fact of the matter is you think the definition of a word is more important than human rights.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #288 February 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo physically abusive husband + alcoholic wife = family would be considered as "getting it right"? I think you're reaching. You don't change the definition of a foundational concept because of abuses. Yes, because the last 200 years is definitely foundation and nothing should ever change from what it is. In fact, lets take away the right of women to vote too. I mean, the two concepts must have been INVENTED at the same time right? Progress is dumb. Down with progress, up with denying rights of people who probably have no bearing on your life! And for the general population: I should take this time to note: I understand that marriage is a concept that some people like to reserve for man and woman because that is the prevailing notion. And because it is such, it should stay that way. A marriage should not be recognized by the state at all. Only civil unions should, for straights AND gays. This has been said here before but I wanted to say it again. There. That solves this marriage semantics crap. And then I carry this thought a little further and make this query: Do you people who oppose gay marriage (or unions) HONESTLY think it will stop gay people from living together or raising children? If you do, you are fooling yourselves. You are in no way going to stop gay family units from occurring by denying the right to be legally joined. All you are doing is denying them other rights, such as spousal rights to healthcare. Ya know, fundamental need stuff. So once again, this concept of the "family unit?" Well, guess what? Holding onto the concept of male/female unions only is just that: a concept. The reality is that the family unit is not, and will never EVER be, ONLY a man and woman. So you can hide behind your belief that you are protecting some type of reality, but the reality is you are not.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 4 #289 February 19, 2006 QuoteNo I'm not reaching. You're talking in circles. The fact of the matter is you think the definition of a word is more important than human rights. You want a massage too, Keith? This is nuts. I only argue in these threads for the entertainment value--it's compelling in a gory accident kind of way to watch some of these folks twist themselves into knots, because one thing I know for sure: Reason and logic have nothing to do with it. The historic record has nothing to do with it. Basic human decency has nothing to do with it. Edited to add: Biology has nothing to do with it. Sometimes it's just too much to bear. Nice post, Rob. I enjoyed the clarity of thought, even if it won't do a damn bit of good. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites micro 0 #290 February 19, 2006 QuoteAlso, the age old question: if God dislikes gays so much, why did he make them? You're assuming, of course, that He made them and that other humans did not. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 4 #291 February 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteAlso, the age old question: if God dislikes gays so much, why did he make them? You're assuming, of course, that He made them and that other humans did not. Uh... Science has advanced that much while I wasn't looking? Oh wait. Are we offering up weird psychological theories for gayness? Believe me, Michael, if these were applicable, I'd be a lesbian. Did anyone read the links I posted? Anyone? rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites narcimund 0 #292 February 19, 2006 QuoteYou're assuming, of course, that He made them and that other humans did not. And people say the dark ages are over... First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #293 February 19, 2006 Quote Nice post, Rob. I enjoyed the clarity of thought, even if it won't do a damn bit of good. rl Thanks rl. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #294 February 19, 2006 QuoteThe fact of the matter is you think the definition of a word is more important than human rights. Yes, it's important for our society that the definition of marriage not be changed. Of course I think that human rights is an important issue, but "gay marriage" isn't in that category. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #295 February 19, 2006 Civil unions? No arguments from me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #296 February 19, 2006 QuoteProgress is dumb. Gay marriage isn't progress. QuoteDown with progress, up with denying rights of people who probably have no bearing on your life! Not directly, true. But I'm not thinking only of myself; I'm thinking of the USA that grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. will live in. We have a responsibility to them. Family is all-important. I realize that many who grew up in dysfunctional families disagree about the importance of the concept (of Family). But, I guess that's what this forum is for-- we can discuss stuff like this and not have to agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 4 #297 February 19, 2006 Gay marriage isn't progress. QuoteBut, I guess that's what this forum is for-- we can discuss stuff like this and not have to agree. You say that "gay marriage isn't progress" and you go on to say "Civil unions? No arguments from me" so it at first looks like your argument is merely with a word. Unfortunately, you then say "But I'm not thinking only of myself; I'm thinking of the USA that grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. will live in. We have a responsibility to them. Family is all-important. I realize that many who grew up in dysfunctional families disagree about the importance of the concept (of Family)" and now I'm trying to figure out what you really mean. Children will be forbidden to those in civil unions? Children in civil unions will have to be cautioned not to call their living unit a "family"? I resent your saying that those of us who grew up in dysfunctional families disagree about the importance of "family." "Family" is a basic human need, MB, and those without one sorely feel the lack--sometimes pathologically so. From personal experience--self and others--most of those I know who grew up in dysfunctional families spend their lives seeking to construct a substitute family in place of the original, non-working, family unit. Furthermore--because it seems to be the implication--I don't believe you will find (if you take the time to do the research) that gays come from dysfunctional family units in any greater numbers than do straights. Please avoid making assertions that fly in the face of both the facts and of elementary human psychology. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #298 February 19, 2006 I realize that many who grew up in dysfunctional families disagree about the importance of the concept (of Family). Then there are people who grew up in perfectly functional families that wouldn't fall into your definition of "family." I think that these families also have value in our society.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #299 February 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteProgress is dumb. Gay marriage isn't progress. QuoteDown with progress, up with denying rights of people who probably have no bearing on your life! Not directly, true. But I'm not thinking only of myself; I'm thinking of the USA that grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. will live in. We have a responsibility to them. Family is all-important. I realize that many who grew up in dysfunctional families disagree about the importance of the concept (of Family). But, I guess that's what this forum is for-- we can discuss stuff like this and not have to agree. As rl said, there is a great contradiction between you saying you are fine with civil unions and then this. Did you even read a word I wrote after that line? Actual families have NEVER BEEN and WILL NEVER BE solely a mother, father, and a child. You can want it all you want. You can hope for it. Wish on a star. Dream a little dream. Whatever. But your idealized notion of what a family is (based upon the definition of marriage) is simply not the way it actually is. So go ahead, "protect" our children an grandchildren from the redefinition of a WORD. Because that is all you are doing. Keep the precious definition of marriage in tact. And while the word stays to mean a male and female union, REALITY will, as it ALWAYS HAS BEEN, far more complex. But hey, at least we won't be redefining words. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 102 #300 February 19, 2006 QuoteYou are wrong. I am bitter. I find it offensive that others feel the need to deprive me of simple rights that most others share. Many polygamists are also deprived of their 'right'. Do same sex marriage activists support polygamist rights? I know some people do, but what about the organizations? It is a simple right that most others share, why deny them? I think that the general public are much less likely to support the legalization of polygamy than same sex marriage, so it would hurt the cause of same sex marriage advocates.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Next Page 12 of 19 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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Lindsey 0 #280 February 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote... In the 200 year history of this country's existence, has marriage ever meant anything other than a man and a woman marrying? Not so far....there's a lot that we haven't got right yet though linz So husband + wife = family wouldn't be considered as "getting it right"? Only partly right. A family can be many other combinations too. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gofast_ER 0 #281 February 18, 2006 wow there are alot of responsed to this post. I'll add mine but its so far down the list might not be read...though i doubt people really care. My thoughts are Who the hell cares if a dude and another dude wanna get married? Or a chick and chick for that matter??? how does it affect you one way or the other? Only that you wanna push your religious beliefs on other people. Then again i am a liberal californian tree huggin hippy. I think we just need to let people be what they want and have the lifstlye they want as long as it does no harm to the general population.I may not agree with what you have to say but i'll defend to the death your right to say it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #282 February 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteJust listen to the calming power of my sig line and everything will be okay. It's going to take a lot more than your sig line to calm me. What else do you have to offer? rl ummmm....massage? Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #283 February 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt's going to take a lot more than your sig line to calm me. What else do you have to offer? ummmm....massage? That's a start. If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #284 February 18, 2006 So physically abusive husband + alcoholic wife = family would be considered as "getting it right"? Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #285 February 19, 2006 QuoteOnly partly right. A family can be many other combinations too. But only if the definition is changed. Like marriage. Which is what the debate is all about... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #286 February 19, 2006 QuoteSo physically abusive husband + alcoholic wife = family would be considered as "getting it right"? I think you're reaching. You don't change the definition of a foundational concept because of abuses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #287 February 19, 2006 No I'm not reaching. You're talking in circles. The fact of the matter is you think the definition of a word is more important than human rights.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #288 February 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo physically abusive husband + alcoholic wife = family would be considered as "getting it right"? I think you're reaching. You don't change the definition of a foundational concept because of abuses. Yes, because the last 200 years is definitely foundation and nothing should ever change from what it is. In fact, lets take away the right of women to vote too. I mean, the two concepts must have been INVENTED at the same time right? Progress is dumb. Down with progress, up with denying rights of people who probably have no bearing on your life! And for the general population: I should take this time to note: I understand that marriage is a concept that some people like to reserve for man and woman because that is the prevailing notion. And because it is such, it should stay that way. A marriage should not be recognized by the state at all. Only civil unions should, for straights AND gays. This has been said here before but I wanted to say it again. There. That solves this marriage semantics crap. And then I carry this thought a little further and make this query: Do you people who oppose gay marriage (or unions) HONESTLY think it will stop gay people from living together or raising children? If you do, you are fooling yourselves. You are in no way going to stop gay family units from occurring by denying the right to be legally joined. All you are doing is denying them other rights, such as spousal rights to healthcare. Ya know, fundamental need stuff. So once again, this concept of the "family unit?" Well, guess what? Holding onto the concept of male/female unions only is just that: a concept. The reality is that the family unit is not, and will never EVER be, ONLY a man and woman. So you can hide behind your belief that you are protecting some type of reality, but the reality is you are not.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #289 February 19, 2006 QuoteNo I'm not reaching. You're talking in circles. The fact of the matter is you think the definition of a word is more important than human rights. You want a massage too, Keith? This is nuts. I only argue in these threads for the entertainment value--it's compelling in a gory accident kind of way to watch some of these folks twist themselves into knots, because one thing I know for sure: Reason and logic have nothing to do with it. The historic record has nothing to do with it. Basic human decency has nothing to do with it. Edited to add: Biology has nothing to do with it. Sometimes it's just too much to bear. Nice post, Rob. I enjoyed the clarity of thought, even if it won't do a damn bit of good. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #290 February 19, 2006 QuoteAlso, the age old question: if God dislikes gays so much, why did he make them? You're assuming, of course, that He made them and that other humans did not. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #291 February 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteAlso, the age old question: if God dislikes gays so much, why did he make them? You're assuming, of course, that He made them and that other humans did not. Uh... Science has advanced that much while I wasn't looking? Oh wait. Are we offering up weird psychological theories for gayness? Believe me, Michael, if these were applicable, I'd be a lesbian. Did anyone read the links I posted? Anyone? rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #292 February 19, 2006 QuoteYou're assuming, of course, that He made them and that other humans did not. And people say the dark ages are over... First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #293 February 19, 2006 Quote Nice post, Rob. I enjoyed the clarity of thought, even if it won't do a damn bit of good. rl Thanks rl. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #294 February 19, 2006 QuoteThe fact of the matter is you think the definition of a word is more important than human rights. Yes, it's important for our society that the definition of marriage not be changed. Of course I think that human rights is an important issue, but "gay marriage" isn't in that category. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #295 February 19, 2006 Civil unions? No arguments from me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #296 February 19, 2006 QuoteProgress is dumb. Gay marriage isn't progress. QuoteDown with progress, up with denying rights of people who probably have no bearing on your life! Not directly, true. But I'm not thinking only of myself; I'm thinking of the USA that grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. will live in. We have a responsibility to them. Family is all-important. I realize that many who grew up in dysfunctional families disagree about the importance of the concept (of Family). But, I guess that's what this forum is for-- we can discuss stuff like this and not have to agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #297 February 19, 2006 Gay marriage isn't progress. QuoteBut, I guess that's what this forum is for-- we can discuss stuff like this and not have to agree. You say that "gay marriage isn't progress" and you go on to say "Civil unions? No arguments from me" so it at first looks like your argument is merely with a word. Unfortunately, you then say "But I'm not thinking only of myself; I'm thinking of the USA that grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. will live in. We have a responsibility to them. Family is all-important. I realize that many who grew up in dysfunctional families disagree about the importance of the concept (of Family)" and now I'm trying to figure out what you really mean. Children will be forbidden to those in civil unions? Children in civil unions will have to be cautioned not to call their living unit a "family"? I resent your saying that those of us who grew up in dysfunctional families disagree about the importance of "family." "Family" is a basic human need, MB, and those without one sorely feel the lack--sometimes pathologically so. From personal experience--self and others--most of those I know who grew up in dysfunctional families spend their lives seeking to construct a substitute family in place of the original, non-working, family unit. Furthermore--because it seems to be the implication--I don't believe you will find (if you take the time to do the research) that gays come from dysfunctional family units in any greater numbers than do straights. Please avoid making assertions that fly in the face of both the facts and of elementary human psychology. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #298 February 19, 2006 I realize that many who grew up in dysfunctional families disagree about the importance of the concept (of Family). Then there are people who grew up in perfectly functional families that wouldn't fall into your definition of "family." I think that these families also have value in our society.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #299 February 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteProgress is dumb. Gay marriage isn't progress. QuoteDown with progress, up with denying rights of people who probably have no bearing on your life! Not directly, true. But I'm not thinking only of myself; I'm thinking of the USA that grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. will live in. We have a responsibility to them. Family is all-important. I realize that many who grew up in dysfunctional families disagree about the importance of the concept (of Family). But, I guess that's what this forum is for-- we can discuss stuff like this and not have to agree. As rl said, there is a great contradiction between you saying you are fine with civil unions and then this. Did you even read a word I wrote after that line? Actual families have NEVER BEEN and WILL NEVER BE solely a mother, father, and a child. You can want it all you want. You can hope for it. Wish on a star. Dream a little dream. Whatever. But your idealized notion of what a family is (based upon the definition of marriage) is simply not the way it actually is. So go ahead, "protect" our children an grandchildren from the redefinition of a WORD. Because that is all you are doing. Keep the precious definition of marriage in tact. And while the word stays to mean a male and female union, REALITY will, as it ALWAYS HAS BEEN, far more complex. But hey, at least we won't be redefining words. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #300 February 19, 2006 QuoteYou are wrong. I am bitter. I find it offensive that others feel the need to deprive me of simple rights that most others share. Many polygamists are also deprived of their 'right'. Do same sex marriage activists support polygamist rights? I know some people do, but what about the organizations? It is a simple right that most others share, why deny them? I think that the general public are much less likely to support the legalization of polygamy than same sex marriage, so it would hurt the cause of same sex marriage advocates.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
