Theological Query

[ExAFO 0]

To the amateur theologians:

What is your estimation of 5-Point Calvinism?

-Do you believe that Christ died for only a select few, or is the salvation/atonement open to all? (versus arminianism's view)

I've seen so much hyper calvinists lately it seems almost cult-ish to subscribe to 5 point Calvinism and its eliteist predestination theory.

Re: Predestination: why bother preaching to those predestined to damnation?

If Hyper-calvinism is correct, Heaven will be chock-full of irritating Fundies, and the other 99.5% of humanity are screwed...

Thoughts?

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[unformed 0]

Personally, I think Zeus is the only true god, and those who don't believe in him will get struck down by his lightning bolt.

This ad space for sale.

[pajarito 0]

Predestination does not prevent free-will. God is all-knowing and powerful and predestines in and through the choices that we make. God knows you so well that he already knows which choices you will make. He sees your heart. I have children. I could put a bowl of green beans and a bowl of ice cream on the table for my youngest boy. I already know, however, that he will always go straight for the bowl of ice cream if given the choice. That doesn’t mean he didn’t have a choice. I just know his nature at this age.

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To the amateur theologians:

By the way, I DO NOT claim to be a theologian.

[micro 0]

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Do you believe that Christ died for only a select few, or is the salvation/atonement open to all? (versus arminianism's view)

Christ died for all. Will all accept? No.

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Re: Predestination: why bother preaching to those predestined to damnation?

Pre-destined, in the Christian sense (not necessarily the strict Calvinist sense) isn' the same as fate. Choice still exists.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Dolph 0]

Explain the difference?

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Explain the difference?

My (quite possibly very incorrect) understanding is that pre-destination a la Calvin means that God has determined in advance that certain people are going to Heaven and certain people are not.

My understanding of pre-destination a la Catholicism is that God wills (i.e. wants all souls to go to Heaven but, due to the choices that people make, some ain't goin'.

My understanding of fate is that it just doesn't matter what you choose to do, because you really don't have a choice at all. That, to me, is a bunch of hooey.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[JackC 0]

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Predestination does not prevent free-will. God is all-knowing and powerful and predestines in and through the choices that we make.

Statements like this is the prime reason I'm an atheist. Your knowledge of what your kids like to eat is based on probability in the light of past events. If your prediction is wrong, it only shows that you placed the wrong bet. If god's knowledge is wrong, he can't be all knowing and is therefore significantly less god-like. If god knows the outcome of some choice I make will be X, then my choice can be nothing other than that which will lead to X, I cannot choose not-X. How can there be freewill if I am unable to make the choice not-X? The only solution is either there is no god or there is no free will. To say god predestines though freewill is like saying circles are circular because they're square.

[Dolph 0]

But he already knows all the paths that will be walked right? He's ominiscient, after all.

Not trying to pull your leg here. If he is omniscient, he knows. If his knowledge where a database we could:

SELECT * FROM Life_Of_Brian

Loop over the result, output every decision.

He knows everything. He set everything in motion. He knew before he did this what the outcome would be. He has always known.

The difference as described is a matter of semantics.

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But he already knows all the paths that will be walked right? He's ominiscient, after all.

Not trying to pull your leg here. If he is omniscient, he knows. If his knowledge where a database we could:

SELECT * FROM Life_Of_Brian

Loop over the result, output every decision.

He knows everything. He set everything in motion. He knew before he did this what the outcome would be. He has always known.

The difference as described is a matter of semantics.

No it's not. Knowledge of something that will happen at a later time doesn't mean that God willed it to happen. God doesn't will evil. Rather, he allows it. There is a difference here that goes far beyond semantics.

Yes, God has ALWAYS known what the outcome of this would be. Yet he did it anyway. That's love.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Dolph 0]

Well He knew before he did the Creation thing.

In fact, he made this rather elaborate design. All variables known, all possible paths of execution known all come-to-be paths of execution known.

As a programmer, being able to do that would be just amazingly brilliant, given 10 billion users and 5 billion parallel threads just for humans alone.

My point is he knows exactly what will happen, when and how. To expect anything less that that the design does exactly what it was designed to do from an omniscient being is not love. It is, at best, ego masturbation and at worst criminally evil in itself.

I mean, I'd have a serious talk about the design that forced all atrocities in the world into happening.

Here's an analogy for you, a nerdy one:

//Gonna make a variable, an integer
int i = 1;

//Gonna increment it
i++;

//See if cast Adam and Eve from Paradise
if(i > 1){
CastFromParadise();
CreateAtrocitiesThreads();
BlameTheDevil();
ExcuseOfTheDay("Free will!");
Console.Write("MUahahahahahah!");
}
else{
//YAH AS IF
}

Just doesn't make sense not to take responsibility for what you design and create.

[JackC 0]

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No it's not. Knowledge of something that will happen at a later time doesn't mean that God willed it to happen. God doesn't will evil. Rather, he allows it. There is a difference here that goes far beyond semantics.

Yes, God has ALWAYS known what the outcome of this would be. Yet he did it anyway. That's love.

What?!? If I knew something bad was going to happen and I had the power to stop it but didn't, I'd consider that to be evil (or at least criminally negligent). Love is not and cannot be a motivation for sitting on your ass while evil things happen.

[SpeedRacer 1]

unless the only way to stop it is to either a) not create a universe capable of supporting intelligent life or b) creating a universe with intelligent life forms, but making them organic automatons incapable of having a real soul. No soul = incapable of sinning.

Speed Racer
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[micro 0]

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unless the only way to stop it is to either a) not create a universe capable of supporting intelligent life or b) creating a universe with intelligent life forms, but making them organic automatons incapable of having a real soul. No soul = incapable of sinning.

and that leads to the question, is it better for you and I to exist or is it not? I say it is, in spite of the suffering that MANKIND has produced, not God.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...