Looking for parts/info butler beta emergency bailout rig / lopo round

[medic0079 0]

So I have a container butler beta and was looking to put together a emergency bailout rig for my plane. My understanding is these used strong lopo rounds. Any ideas what else I need i.e. diaper pilot chute risers? And any ideas where I can get these cheap, but still usable?
Thanks for any Info

[peek 21]

medic0079

So I have a container butler beta and was looking to put together a emergency bailout rig for my plane. My understanding is these used strong lopo rounds. Any ideas what else I need i.e. diaper pilot chute risers? And any ideas where I can get these cheap, but still usable?

www.butlerparachutes.com

I took a quick look through some manuals and could not find definitive answers to those questions. You might save some time by just calling them.

[riggerrob 643]

Depending upon the size of the container, you can install most rounds ranging from (small pack volume) Pioneer K-20s to huge MIL SPEC C-9s.
If you tell us the part number and date of manufacture, we can help you narrow down which canopies will fit.
Butler insists on diapers because diapers greatly increase opening reliability.
Avoid round reserves sewn during the 1980s because of the risk of acid mesh.

[medic0079 0]

Serial is 1137 butler beta mfg date 7/4/81

[riggerrob 643]

Serial number and date of manufacture are nice, but the part number is the most valuable because it contains a LOT of information.
Is it a back type?
Does it have 2 or 3 ripcord pins?
Etc.

[councilman24 37]

medic0079

Serial is 1137 butler beta mfg date 7/4/81

Butler's have a published service life of 20 years. While this likely doesn't have the force of law (unless stated when approved) it is a consideration for some riggers. Condition is the more important issue. I just grounded two 19 year old PEPs because of substantial fading of the harness. Color isn't important but indicates significant sun exposure which weakens the webbing. I have a Butler seat from the about that time that I grounded 15 years ago, with the complete agreement of the owner that it was questionable. If your rig was used routinely for all of its 35 year life it may not be airworthy. 35 years for a PEP flown all those years is a long time. Many riggers unfortunately will pack anything.

Before you spend too much time gathering other components consult your rigger.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

Hi Terry,

Quote

Butler's have a published service life of 20 years.

I recently came across some info that National Parachute says that they will not service any of their products after 15 yrs. After that, they say, it is up to the rigger to decide whether to continue to service them or not.

Sounds like the best approach IMO.

Jerry Baumchen

[councilman24 37]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Terry,

Quote

Butler's have a published service life of 20 years.

I recently came across some info that National Parachute says that they will not service any of their products after 15 yrs. After that, they say, it is up to the rigger to decide whether to continue to service them or not.

Sounds like the best approach IMO.

Jerry Baumchen

And depending on who you talk to at Strong they won't service anything more than 20 years old. But that seems to be variable.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 643]

Back in 1992, Butler refused to repack any PEP more than 20 years old. I suspect that the only reason he allowed Security PEPs into his loft was for the opportunity to sell them a modern parachute.
Back then most other Southern California lofts refused to work on parachutes more the 23 or 25 years old.

Seven years ago I quit working on rounds made during the acid mesh era (1980s) because I no longer have the special tools (bromocreasol and tension-testing clamps) and cannot justify buying new tools.
I discourage young riggers from wasting time on gear older than themselves because of difficulties in finding: manuals, service bulletins, special tools and special packing techniques.
Trivia question: when closing a Security Safety-Chute, which end do the knots go on?

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

Hi Terry,

Quote

But that seems to be variable.

Well, that is one option for them.



Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

Hi Rob,

Quote

Trivia question: when closing a Security Safety-Chute, which end do the knots go on?

Are you referring to the two each Pack closing loops, Part #78A1679?

If so, these were a sewn closing loop. I think I may have seen some 'replacement' closing loops that had the ends tied together. If so, then the knot would go at the 'S' spring.

I know of nothing where Security/G Q Security has allowed knotted closing loops. But, they may have without telling me.

Jerry Baumchen

[riggerrob 643]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Rob,

Quote

Trivia question: when closing a Security Safety-Chute, which end do the knots go on?

Are you referring to the two each Pack closing loops, Part #78A1679?

If so, these were a sewn closing loop. I think I may have seen some 'replacement' closing loops that had the ends tied together. If so, then the knot would go at the 'S' spring.

I know of nothing where Security/G Q Security has allowed knotted closing loops. But, they may have without telling me.

Jerry Baumchen

.................................................................................

See the Security 350 manual.
It says to use Type 1 suspension line (MBS 100 pounds) to make closing loops.
Any modern riggers still packing Security PEPs tend to use Cypres cord (300 pound MBS) and tie them according to the 350 manual.

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

Hi Rob,

Quote

See the Security 350 manual.

My bad, you are correct. I guess that I just never caught that change from the 150/250 manual.

Need to improve my reading skills; or is it old age?

Hey, I gotta blame it on something.



Jerry Baumchen

PS) And I have both manuals.

[riggerrob 643]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Rob,

Quote

See the Security 350 manual.

My bad, you are correct. I guess that I just never caught that change from the 150/250 manual.

Need to improve my reading skills; or is it old age?

Hey, I gotta blame it on something.



Jerry Baumchen

PS) And I have both manuals.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Blame it on the notion that Security PEPs fell out of fashion in North America a decade ago.

[riggerrob 643]

medic0079

Serial is 1137 butler beta mfg date 7/4/81

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If you tell us the part number, we can help you narrow down the list of canopies that can be installed.

A typical Butler part number goes:
101-142402-26Lopo.

"101" means that it is a back type container.
"14" is the width in inches.
"24" is the length.
"02" is the thickness.
"26Lopo" is self-explanatory.
The portion after the dash might also say which type of airplane it is designed to fit. For example: "SU26" means that it will fit in the cramped seats of a Sukhoi 26 aerobatic airplane.

[medic0079 0]

If I could find a part number I would the only thing it says on the tag is model beta emergency type back parachute serial 1137 date 7/4/81 container type wt 2 or 8 can't read it well. Harness type/wt 3 lb see owners manual for a list of approved canopies. 3 pin design btw

[riggerrob 643]

I wonder if early Butler PEPs used the same model numbers as PEPs built during the 1990s?
Your next step is to measure the pack tray.

Width is the easiest to measure because the container is the same width as the back pad.
Length is measured internally.
Thickness is measured at the corners.

If you share those measurements, we can help you determine which canopies are compatible.

[medic0079 0]

Width of tray is 15.15.5 length 23.5 hgt looks to be about 4" seller. I have eyes on an 89 phantom 28 or a 26ft phantom mfg 11-89 laminated Kevlar (lines I assume) installed in 88. Seller says these will fit and come with all applicable parts. Are these the acid type chutes you would avoid?

[councilman24 37]

medic0079

Width of tray is 15.15.5 length 23.5 hgt looks to be about 4" seller. I have eyes on an 89 phantom 28 or a 26ft phantom mfg 11-89 laminated Kevlar (lines I assume) installed in 88. Seller says these will fit and come with all applicable parts. Are these the acid type chutes you would avoid?

In 1989 or so National redesigned the Phantom to leave acid mesh and multiple service bulletin stigma behind (my assumption). The new version are Phantom Aerostar. The have line attachment tapes line a ram air instead or lines directly sewn to the radial seams. There are other differences but that is the most obvious. And the are stamped Aerostar. These I would use. I would avoid the earlier ones that required a fifferent diaper, kevlar lateral tapes added for strength about 2/3 the way up the canopy, and acid mesh/ tensile testing. I relegate the old ones for use as mains.

Other riggers disagree and think old Phantoms are fine.

With those measurements it may be for a military c9. My 1988 butler seat, PN 102-151303, is 15" side to side, 13" fromt to back and 3 inches high. That's why we wanted the part number. This holds a NAA 26' Lopo. (original canopy) But even a military seat isn't 23 inches wide. Double check your measurements and your typing. But depending on what you really meant to type I think the Phantoms will be too small for container.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[likestojump 3]

Considering that I was the eBay seller for that old butler BETA container, let's clean this up :

the rig originally had a 24ft T10R (the infamous 48J7156) in OD color, unmodified with type 1 deployment - YUCK.

My recommendation is always to go for the biggest round possible. In this case, a 28ft Phantom (non-Aerostar) is my recommendation. And yes, Aerostar would be nice, but I just don't have any.

Just my 2 cents. With a heavy coating of bias :)

[councilman24 37]

likestojump

My recommendation is always to go for the biggest round possible. In this case, a 28ft Phantom (non-Aerostar) is my recommendation. And yes, Aerostar would be nice, but I just don't have any.

Just my 2 cents. With a heavy coating of bias :)

He can by one from someone else.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[likestojump 3]

councilman24

***

My recommendation is always to go for the biggest round possible. In this case, a 28ft Phantom (non-Aerostar) is my recommendation. And yes, Aerostar would be nice, but I just don't have any.

Just my 2 cents. With a heavy coating of bias :)

He can by one from someone else.

Sure can. Can you point him to a place where there's an inexpensive Aerostar 28Ft ? It's the whole point of his initial post.

Like I said, I got bias...

[riggerrob 643]

Still having difficulty reading your dimensions.
Perhaps you could write width on one line,........
Length on a second line and .......
Thickness on a third line.

I would be fine with an Aerostar canopy sewn during the late 1990s. The acid-mesh problem was earlier.

Canopy compatibility is less of an issue with back type PEPs, because they are so soft to begin with. If you over-stuff, you will need longer closing loops and some cotton wool. The cotton wool is to stuff in your ears when the pilot complains about his 'chute being too bulky!
Hah!
Hah!
OTOH if you install a canopy with too little pack volume, you will need to shorten closing loops until you have a solid stack of grommets, but pilot-chute spring pressure will still ensure a minimum of 5 pounds tension on the ripcord pins.
But you will still need cotton wool because the pilot will complain that lumps shift around and the rig will not stand up by itself.
Hah!
Hah!

[medic0079 0]

sorry I measured the inside of the pack tray
width side to side is 15.5
length top to bottom is 23.5
depth is 4 inches from the packing tray to the corner of the container.

[councilman24 37]

medic0079

sorry I measured the inside of the pack tray
width side to side is 15.5
length top to bottom is 23.5
depth is 4 inches from the packing tray to the corner of the container.

I guess i missed it. This is a bavk?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE