South Dakota ban's abortion

[nate_1979 9]

NOt gonna get into this thread much because I really dont have time for speakers corner battles, but being from South Dakota myself, I just wanted to say that I am proud to be from there, the first state to take a step in what I believe is the right direction

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[windcatcher 0]

Nice Nate
Love ya sweetie~!

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[kallend 2,088]

Quote

I think a victim of rape should be limited in when they can get rid of it because the circumstances of the conception are not relevant to the worth of the life being protected. I understand that you don't agree it is a life worth protecting, but can't you understand my position?

If your position involves putting your opinion on what is right and wrong above that of a woman who is a total stranger to you, then no, I do not understand your position. If it's your sister/GF/spouse, then your opinion counts for something, but does not trump hers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

I think a victim of rape should be limited in when they can get rid of it because the circumstances of the conception are not relevant to the worth of the life being protected. I understand that you don't agree it is a life worth protecting, but can't you understand my position?

What about the value of the life of the rape victim?

Does the life that already exists have any priority over a cluster of cells?

Or does her total value lie in the fact that she's the incubator for a life she did not want and did not ask for?

Or...hmmm...how much of a limit do you want? When's the cutoff? And if you don't consider it murder for a rape victim at that point, do you also not consider it murder for someone who simply doesn't want to be pregnant?

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[shropshire 0]

excuse me... it's (after all) none of my business, but hasn't history shown that prohibition (because this is a form) does not work. Nature abhors a vacuum and a criminal element will, no doubt enter the scene and take over (back street abortionists - bad... very , very bad!)...... or people will just cross the state line for the procedure.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[billvon 3,044]

>What about the value of the life of the rape victim?

Well, except that's already taken into account in the South Dakota law - it allows for abortions in pregnancy cases that threaten the mother's life. If you mean "the value of the quality of life" then the SD law does not take that into account.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

>Which, if left alone, will in all probability develop into a person just like you and me.

That's a different argument. The argument that "you're killing a living baby that can see, hear, feel" etc might be valid at the 38th week, but it's not valid at 6 weeks. I realize there are many other issues (like _potential_ life.)

Someone who is so limited in their thinking such as one who would not consider someone human who might not be able to see, feel, or hear might also fit the person described in my sig line below. By the way, some of those senses develop a hell of a lot earlier than the 38th week.

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

>What about the value of the life of the rape victim?

Well, except that's already taken into account in the South Dakota law - it allows for abortions in pregnancy cases that threaten the mother's life. If you mean "the value of the quality of life" then the SD law does not take that into account.

Well, I can imagine three possible scenarios that might apply to a rape victim who cannot obtain a legal abortion. One is that she might seek a backalley abortion, thus risking her life. Another is that she might simply kill herself. The final one is that some women who have apparently problem-free pregnancy die as the result of birth complications.

Actually these apply to any pregnant woman who can't obtain a legal abortion, don't they?

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

Quote

I think a victim of rape should be limited in when they can get rid of it because the circumstances of the conception are not relevant to the worth of the life being protected. I understand that you don't agree it is a life worth protecting, but can't you understand my position?

If your position involves putting your opinion on what is right and wrong above that of a woman who is a total stranger to you, then no, I do not understand your position. If it's your sister/GF/spouse, then your opinion counts for something, but does not trump hers.

There are laws that define lots of things as being right/wrong.

On what basis does our government define what is prohibited? The opinion of our lawmakers, representing the public. I don't think it is reasonable to pretend that laws passed because of opinions of what is right and wrong are unusual.

It is also not unusual to define what is prohibited even though those people are strangers to the lawmakers.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[narcimund 0]

Quote

Someone who is so limited in their thinking such as one who would not consider someone human who might not be able to see, feel, or hear might also fit the person described in my sig line below.

Did you really just call billvon an idiot?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Quote

Someone who is so limited in their thinking such as one who would not consider someone human who might not be able to see, feel, or hear might also fit the person described in my sig line below.

Did you really just call billvon an idiot?

He stated the idea of some. He never said he believed it. I attacked the idea. Not him.

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

What about the value of the life of the rape victim?

Does the life that already exists have any priority over a cluster of cells?

My cutoff point would be a while before the third trimester, but I'm not settled on exactly when.

Quote

Or does her total value lie in the fact that she's the incubator for a life she did not want and did not ask for?

Or...hmmm...how much of a limit do you want? When's the cutoff? And if you don't consider it murder for a rape victim at that point, do you also not consider it murder for someone who simply doesn't want to be pregnant?

Having an unwanted baby is a tremendous burden, but after a certain point, I think the scales of justice can only tip one way. After that point, I think the circumstances of the conception are not relevant.

My positions are not so unusual, and I think not so extreme. I think it is extreme to take the position that regardless of the stage of development, only the mother's wishes matter. I think that is pretty simple and understandable. Even if you don't agree with me, my answers to all the emotional arguments against me are predictable.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[GTAVercetti 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Someone who is so limited in their thinking such as one who would not consider someone human who might not be able to see, feel, or hear might also fit the person described in my sig line below.

Did you really just call billvon an idiot?

He stated the idea of some. He never said he believed it. I attacked the idea. Not him.

And it was quite possibly the most convoluted way of constructing a sentence to avoid the PA. I award you -10 points.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

And it was quite possibly the most convoluted way of constructing a sentence to avoid the PA. I award you -10 points.

You have no idea how much it strained me to keep it civil. So..... Do I get the gold medal?

[GTAVercetti 0]

Quote

Quote

And it was quite possibly the most convoluted way of constructing a sentence to avoid the PA. I award you -10 points.

You have no idea how much it strained me to keep it civil. So..... Do I get the gold medal?

Well that is just silly. You don't get a medal when you get NEGATIVE points.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

Well, I can imagine three possible scenarios that might apply to a rape victim who cannot obtain a legal abortion. One is that she might seek a backalley abortion, thus risking her life. Another is that she might simply kill herself. The final one is that some women who have apparently problem-free pregnancy die as the result of birth complications.

It has been a while since my logic and reason class, but I think fallacies are part of your argument for abortion rights.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,044]

>Someone who is so limited in their thinking such as one who would
>not consider someone human who might not be able to see, feel, or
> hear might also fit the person described in my sig line below.

That's the most convoluted means to deliver a personal attack I have seen yet!

But yes - someone who cannot see, feel, hear, speak, think, act, etc - in other words, everything that makes us human - is not human. If someone got decapitated, and we could keep their body alive, would you consider that body fully human, even though it couldn't think, feel, see etc? How long would you keep such a body alive?


>By the way, some of those senses develop a hell of a lot earlier than
> the 38th week.

I agree. And by the same token they certainly develop later than the 12th week. So if you decided "I think those senses develop at week 16 in a meaninful way, and therefore the fetus is human at that point" I think you would have a good argument.

[billvon 3,044]

>Well, I can imagine three possible scenarios that might apply to a
>rape victim who cannot obtain a legal abortion. One is that she might
> seek a backalley abortion, thus risking her life. Another is that she
> might simply kill herself.

Right, but both of those are common to a great many scenarios. A woman who is not given cocaine during her pregnancy may go through withdrawal and kill herself as a result; that's not a good reason to make it legal to purchase and use cocaine while you are pregnant.

>The final one is that some women who have apparently problem-free
> pregnancy die as the result of birth complications.

I agree there, and I think that will be one of the serious problems with this law if it is ratified and held up in court (which I hope it isn't.) If you have a high risk pregnancy, and the woman says she plans to do things that make it even more risky, at what point do you decide that the pregnancy really is a significant risk to the mother? Can you legally compel her to stop doing risky things, or to do things to mitigate the risk?

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

Quote

Well, I can imagine three possible scenarios that might apply to a rape victim who cannot obtain a legal abortion. One is that she might seek a backalley abortion, thus risking her life. Another is that she might simply kill herself. The final one is that some women who have apparently problem-free pregnancy die as the result of birth complications.

It has been a while since my logic and reason class, but I think fallacies are part of your argument for abortion rights.

Tu quoque is also a fallacy.

I'm not arguing for abortion rights. That's the point you missed earlier, and the one you continue to miss.

The convolutedness (is that even a word?) of all this has to do with what I believe is the proper role of the government in the lives of the people, and what I believe one person has the right to decide for another person.

Let me just tick off a couple of things in no particular order:

I was once in the position of having to decide whether I was going to carry my pregnancy to term. To me, she was a baby, not a collection of cells. I made my choice, and it is evidenced by the fact that she has posted in one of these two threads.

I would not presume to make this choice for another woman.

That said, my gut feeling (having nothing to do with logic) is that a baby becomes a baby a whole lot sooner than 38 weeks. (But I wouldn't go to the great lengths we now go to keep a premature infant alive either. There are many good reasons for allowing nature to take its course.)

Continuing with my feelings, the first trimester is the time for having an abortion, if an abortion is to be had. Given that some women don't even know they're pregnant until later (some of us do continue to bleed), I would probably say that if a woman has the stomach for it, five (or even six, depending on the situation--i.e., a defective baby) months might be a reasonable cut off. I couldn't do it unless the amnio came back bad (in which case, I would do it quickly), but I can see the need.

Women who give birth 4 months early (20 weeks pregnant or less) are considered to have had a miscarriage. Later births are considered premature. That seems reasonable to me as a rule of thumb, but I still can see reasons to make exceptions.

I think partial birth abortion is a neutral name for a heinous practice, although I might back off that if you told me the infant in question had certain abnormalities.

I believe that the decision to have (or not have) an abortion is not subject to a general principle that is easily expressed, and to try to express it in the form of a law does a disservice to us all.

To make it even more personal, in a choice between my daughter's health and well-being (mental, physical or both) and that of a prospective grandchild I do not even know, I would choose my daughter every time. I believe that the life-already-in-existence has priority, and that is why I believe that the government and all the busybodies who don't have enough to do need to butt the hell out once and for all.

Now, you can reach whatever conclusion you'd like about where I stand on the issue. Just know that there are a lot of things I think people ought to do/not to do, but I would not presume to be the one to tell them they can't do the wrong thing (IMO) or must do the right thing (IMO). I have enough to do keeping true to my own set of ethics without minding yours.

In other words, I do have an opinion on this issue, but I stop short of imposing it on anyone else. I think "the public" calls that pro-choice.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

>Well, I can imagine three possible scenarios that might apply to a
>rape victim who cannot obtain a legal abortion. One is that she might
> seek a backalley abortion, thus risking her life. Another is that she
> might simply kill herself.

Quote

Right, but both of those are common to a great many scenarios. A woman who is not given cocaine during her pregnancy may go through withdrawal and kill herself as a result; that's not a good reason to make it legal to purchase and use cocaine while you are pregnant.

So now my rape victim is a coke addict? C'mon bill, you can do a lot better than that. That was downright lazy.

Quote

If you have a high risk pregnancy, and the woman says she plans to do things that make it even more risky, at what point do you decide that the pregnancy really is a significant risk to the mother? Can you legally compel her to stop doing risky things, or to do things to mitigate the risk?

I think women have an obligation to bring the healthiest possible baby into the world. I really did try not to smoke, I really did try to eat healthy, I really did try to take care of myself. Most women do the same, with varying results. A few women are too self-centered to care, and we end up with defective babies. I don't know if it's possible to legislate against self-centeredness (although sometimes I wish it were). How in the hell do you enforce it?

And too, I was in a bad situation when I was pregnant, and although I did what I could to mitigate it as much as possible, Beck was routinely flooded with my stress hormones.

So what do we do? Demand that pregnant women be given a specific type of environment in which to live for the duration?

This whole pregnancy thing is getting awfully complicated.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

• Quote

[billvon 3,044]

>So now my rape victim is a coke addict?

I know you know better than that.

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

Someone who is so limited in their thinking such as one who would not consider someone human who might not be able to see, feel, or hear might also fit the person described in my sig line below. By the way, some of those senses develop a hell of a lot earlier than the 38th week.

Apart from the PA, you have two different issues here.

One is that a fetus develops certain senses earlier than the 38th week of pregnancy.

The other is that a creature that cannot see, feel or hear is human.

How so? Because it was born of a human mother? Because it has a reasonable facsimile of a human body?

There's a lot more to humanity than that or we would be establishing refuges for anencephalic babies right and left.

What does it mean to be human?

We kill animals that have the intelligence of a three-year old without a thought, and you want to protect something that doesn't even approach that capacity because it was produced by a human being? Are you going to start nurturing tumors too?

But I guess since I'm an idiot too, none of this really matters, eh?

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb