South Dakota ban's abortion

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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your position is that the baby is viable with a c-section - it's an agreement with your proposal to c-section, not agreement with your description of the partial birth abort. You made it vague by describing two things and he answered the last one - you were assuming he answered the first one. (that's how I read it anyway - dekker can speak for himself)

Thanks, that is exactly it.

[Beckz70018 0]

First off, someone brought it up, but no one really addressed it. What about the women who are raped? (Whether it be by someone they don't know or a family member.) The ones who had no choice then, but can have the choice now.

If I were put in a situation like that, there is no way I would want to bring a baby into the world who is already predisposed to possibly being a rapist, or a serial killer. Things are passed down through genetics. No one should be allowed to make the decision for another person. Let me rephrase that. No one has the RIGHT to make that kind of decision for another person.

This makes me think of a case that I read about in the paper back when I was probably 13 or 14. There was a girl who had her baby in the bathroom at a school dance and left it there. It's people who throw their opinions around about abortion that make other people feel like they have no choice in the matter, and things like that end up happening, because they feel like they have no one to turn to.

If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. But don't judge other people when it comes to something like that, you don't know their circumstances. You're allowed to have your beliefs, but shoving them down another person's throat is wrong.

I think adoption is a great thing, but I also believe there are circumstances in which abortion is the best thing. The person who has the abortion is the one who has to live with any kind of regrets that they might have, not you.

[RhondaLea 4]

The acorn falls not far from the old oak...

Nicely done, Beck.

Love,
Mom

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[sundevil777 102]

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You're allowed to have your beliefs, but shoving them down another person's throat is wrong.

When do you think it is a life worth protecting as any other?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[RhondaLea 4]

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You're allowed to have your beliefs, but shoving them down another person's throat is wrong.

When do you think it is a life worth protecting as any other?

If what a woman carries inside her body isn't capable of living outside her body, I'd say that no matter what you believe, you haven't the right to demand that she use her body as an incubator just to suit your idea of what is right and wrong.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Beckz70018 0]

It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the person carrying the child thinks. It is no ones business, but that persons.

There are people who don't find out that they're pregnant for months into the pregnancy. My human resource manager at work is a good example for that, she didn't know she was pregnant until she was almost 5 months along, because she continued to have her period throughout those months.

When you're carrying a child, then you make the decision, until then, I think people should keep their mouths shut.

You don't know what another persons reason is for doing it.

[sundevil777 102]

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You're allowed to have your beliefs, but shoving them down another person's throat is wrong.

When do you think it is a life worth protecting as any other?

If what a woman carries inside her body isn't capable of living outside her body, I'd say that no matter what you believe, you haven't the right to demand that she use her body as an incubator just to suit your idea of what is right and wrong.

rl

You have made it clear that you believe at some point it is a life worth protecting as any other. The viability threshold as a determining point will continue to change with advances in medical technology, so I don't think that is a good criteria, unless you don't mind that threshold to be regularly adjusted (I wouldn't expect strong advocates of abortion rights to want that).

When someone talks of it being nobody business but their own, etc. it implies they believe it is OK up until birth. I don't think I've seen anyone here say that is their position. Unless you/your daughter hold that position, you also agree at some point it is killing, and then shouldn't it be treated as such by our judicial system? If you want to consider that "shoving beliefs down another person's throat", then so be it - I'm certainly not alone in the shoving.

Yes, I believe it should be prohibited by law at some point. If people agree with this basic principle, then why go on about it not being anybody elses business. We should instead be discussing when it should be prohibited, not if.

I keep bringing this up because I think it is important to clearly define your position, and many will not readily admit that they have limits to their position. I think realizing this is important to coming to a reasonable compromise.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[rehmwa 2]

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When you're carrying a child, then you make the decision, until then, I think people should keep their mouths shut.

having opinions starts dialogue, dialogue is good if it's kept civil

telling people to keep their mouths shut is neither civil nor promotes the learning that dialogue brings

I'd like to tell people to keep their mouths shut when they let their emotions get the best of them - I'd be wrong to do so, even if the emotion makes them unreasonable and rude, they still have good ideas to sift from the tirade if you look hard enough, they are still thinking people that deserve a hearing, their passions are their for a reason even when those passions make them a pain in the ass to talk to.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sundevil777 102]

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It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the person carrying the child thinks. It is no ones business, but that persons.

There are people who don't find out that they're pregnant for months into the pregnancy. My human resource manager at work is a good example for that, she didn't know she was pregnant until she was almost 5 months along, because she continued to have her period throughout those months.

When you're carrying a child, then you make the decision, until then, I think people should keep their mouths shut.

You don't know what another persons reason is for doing it.

You haven't said it explicitly, but I think you're the only person willing to imply that you think it is OK at any time, for any reason that the mother decides.

I think you are in a small minority. Most think that it is a life worth protecting at some point, and I believe it is a human rights issue that at some point it is a life worth protecting regardless of whether the mother was raped/incest, knew of the pregnancy, etc.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Beckz70018 0]

I'm not one for keeping my mouth shut about, pretty much anything, but, when it comes to something that isn't anyone else's business, but the person it has to do with, then, people should keep their mouths shut.

If any of my friends decided to have an abortion, who am I to give them my opinion about it? No one, that's who.

People are aloud to have their opinions on things, but, it is not your right to tell someone else what to do with their body.

[Darius11 12]

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I'm not one for keeping my mouth shut about, pretty much anything, but, when it comes to something that isn't anyone else's business, but the person it has to do with, then, people should keep their mouths shut.

If any of my friends decided to have an abortion, who am I to give them my opinion about it? No one, that's who.

People are aloud to have their opinions on things, but, it is not your right to tell someone else what to do with their body.

Would you be ok with a mother killing there one week old baby?
If not then why?

I am pro choice to a point but trying to understand where you are coming from?

Edit to add: Do you believe life starts when you exit the womb?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rehmwa 2]

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Edit to add: Do you believe life starts when you exit the womb?

80th trimester

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[RhondaLea 4]

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telling people to keep their mouths shut is neither civil nor promotes the learning that dialogue brings.

This is Speaker's Corner. No one listens, no one cares, no one actually gives any thought to their opponent's argument.

In most contexts, I would agree with you, but there is no real dialogue here.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[rehmwa 2]

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but there is no real dialogue here.

totally disagree - you'd rather just go on and pretend that those who disagree with you are hopeless and evil. Best to just have the law tell them what to think and ignore them.

I'm not anti-choice, but there has to be a point that's too late as a general rule. Why not start with BV's proposal and compare the merits to both extreme positions (every sperm is precious for any reason whatsoever vs destroying the infant right up to the point of labor for any reason whatsoever)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Beckz70018 0]

We're talking about abortion, not about killing a baby that's just been born, or is even a week old. Obviously there's something wrong with that.

I love babies. And it would be nice if we lived in a world where people didn't have to have abortions. But sometimes there is no other choice.

As I said, I think adoption is a great thing, but it isn't the best thing in all cases.

Personally, if I was raped, and I ended up pregnant with my rapists child, I would have an abortion. Simply because, it was something that was forced upon me. I think that people who have the children of their rapist, in most cases, feel hostility towards the child. And again, as I said before, the child is already predisposed to probably being sick in the head.

[billvon 3,048]

>No one listens, no one cares, no one actually gives any thought to their opponent's argument.

True 90% of the time, but there's always the odd thing I learn or think about from what gets posted here. There are a few posters (Kris for example) that post some pretty thoughtful stuff, and a larger number that I know to ignore.

[sundevil777 102]

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I'm not one for keeping my mouth shut about, pretty much anything, but, when it comes to something that isn't anyone else's business, but the person it has to do with, then, people should keep their mouths shut.

If any of my friends decided to have an abortion, who am I to give them my opinion about it? No one, that's who.

People are aloud to have their opinions on things, but, it is not your right to tell someone else what to do with their body.

Would you be ok with a mother killing there one week old baby?
If not then why?

I am pro choice to a point but trying to understand where you are coming from?

Edit to add: Do you believe life starts when you exit the womb?

Some do indeed hold to that position. Or at least that the mother should be allowed to end that life as long as it is within their bodies. Isn't that why partial birth abortion is done in a way so that it dies while still within the body of the mother? I don't think this position can be defended morally.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,048]

>We're talking about abortion, not about killing a baby that's just been
>born, or is even a week old. Obviously there's something wrong with that.

Is there something wrong with a partial birth abortion on a 38-week baby, one that would be 100% viable outside the womb?

[Beckz70018 0]

I don't understand why people do it. But, it isn't my right to tell someone that they can't.

[brierebecca 0]

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When someone talks of it being nobody business but their own, etc. it implies they believe it is OK up until birth. I don't think I've seen anyone here say that is their position.

Okay, I'll state it. That's my position. However, I would never want to have an abortion, much less a late one. But I don't think it's the government's place to step in, even if it's the day before birth. It's not the government's place to say what is or is not right for any one woman, especially because statistically, the women who get the most abortions are not adequately represented by people who could really understand their sitations. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/18/AR2005071801164.html

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Women with unintended pregnancies are those most likely to get abortions. According to the Guttmacher report, 47 percent of unintended pregnancies are aborted. Teenagers, unmarried women, black and Hispanic women, and those with low incomes are more likely than the population as a whole to have unintended pregnancies.

Instead, they're represented by white, christian males, who have no idea what it's like to be in their shoes, and who think that they have the right to impose their morals on everyone.

Just like some people would argue that aborting a day-old fetus is wrong because it is still a life, I think forcing a woman's womb to become a prisoner of the state for her gestation period from the moment she decides that she wants to have an abortion, is wrong. Even if it's for one day. There's something called privacy, folks. The government can't tell you how much or when you should start considering a fetus a life. If you don't want to get one, don't. But just like I would never presume to disrespect a person for their religious beliefs, I would also never presume to disrespect a woman who had to make that awful choice, and chose an avenue that I wouldn't have taken.

Just my opinion. Flame away.

Brie

"Ive seen you hump air, hump the floor of the plane, and hump legs. You now have a new nickname: "Black Humper of Death"--yardhippie

[billvon 3,048]

> I don't understand why people do it. But, it isn't my right to tell someone that they can't.

Here's the rub. A 38 week old baby can cry, react to pain, nurse, breathe - basically do everything a 40 week full term newborn can do. There is very little difference between the two, other than their location. What changes?

Keep in mind that a partial birth abortion at 38 weeks involves delivering the fetus then killing him when he comes out. How is that different from delivering a kid at 40 weeks and killing him 10 seconds after he comes out?

I can see an argument that a 10 week old embryo is not human and not entitled to life the way a living child is. I can't see it when it's a 38 week old fetus. 38 week old babies generally aren't even considered premature.

[RhondaLea 4]

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but there is no real dialogue here.

totally disagree - you'd rather just go on and pretend that those who disagree with you are hopeless and evil.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

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Best to just have the law tell them what to think and ignore them.

Eh?

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I'm not anti-choice, but there has to be a point that's too late as a general rule.

I would not be likely to abort a child of my own except under very compelling circumstances.

As for what others do...well, there was a time, pre-abortion, that babies were left to die by exposure, oft-times only because they had the misfortune to be female.

Invent the uterine replicator, and I will still advocate for not bringing a severely mentally or physically challenged child into the world, but without giving it a whole lot of thought, that's where I'd draw the line. I might come up with other instances, but that's my initial thought.

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Why not start with BV's proposal and compare the merits to both extreme positions (every sperm is precious for any reason whatsoever vs destroying the infant right up to the point of labor for any reason whatsoever)

It's remarkable to me that biology continues to be a thought experiment to some people.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[sundevil777 102]

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> I don't understand why people do it. But, it isn't my right to tell someone that they can't.

Here's the rub. A 38 week old baby can cry, react to pain, nurse, breathe - basically do everything a 40 week full term newborn can do. There is very little difference between the two, other than their location. What changes?

Keep in mind that a partial birth abortion at 38 weeks involves delivering the fetus then killing him when he comes out. How is that different from delivering a kid at 40 weeks and killing him 10 seconds after he comes out?

I can see an argument that a 10 week old embryo is not human and not entitled to life the way a living child is. I can't see it when it's a 38 week old fetus. 38 week old babies generally aren't even considered premature.

Of course your question was not directed to me, but I think it comes down to an "it is in my body, it is my decision" argument. Isn't that why partial birth abortion is done before it comes completely out?

I don't think that position can be defended morally.

Bringing up horrible circumstances that help us to understand why a woman might want an abortion, or how the child's life is likely to be horrible, is not relevant, in my opinion, because that position is held regardless of whether those circumstances are actually present.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[wmw999 2,501]

I used to hold that position when I was very young. But, well, I no longer do. If the baby would be considered a live birth were it to be born via labor, then it's too late to consider an abortion for other than exigent circumstances. Exigent circumstances would normally be preserving the life of the mother, if she so chose.

The grey area is in the 18-23 weeks, where post-birth survival is (barely for the 22+, not really for the 18-21) conceivable. Before that, it's not a baby yet. Potential for one, yes. But not there yet. It's very subjective -- a mother who desperately wants a baby will do anything to protect the 6-week-old fetus, or go onto bed rest at 10 weeks. A mother who cannot do that, or who does not want the baby, doesn't.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ccowden 0]

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This is so wrong would they rather have our girls doing back alley abortions again.

No, they would rather our girls and boys had morals and practiced responsibility and didn't have sex until they were ready to except the responsibility of their actions.