billvon 3,046 #176 February 24, 2006 >can you respect that I haven't formed an opinion about it yet? I definitely can; some very hard questions arise when it comes to abortion and what the medical neccessity is. It's situations like that - very difficult ones with no 'right' answer - that make me think I think you should rely on the people involved (the parents and doctor) rather than the government. I've had friends that went through a similar decision, which is why sometimes I take it too personally. To me, people aren't just saying "we should make some new law" - they are saying that they want my friends (and their doctor) made criminals for making a decision that they think is the best for them and their children. >Would it still be called an abortion if the mother's life was at risk? Of course. In the language of the pro-life people it's murdering a baby. And if the fetus got to 25 weeks before the mother died, it might even live longer than she - so it's killing a viable fetus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,092 #177 February 24, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote I keep bringing this up because I think it is important to clearly define your position, and many will not readily admit that they have limits to their position. I think realizing this is important to coming to a reasonable compromise. That gets at my position, which is that I *can't* clearly define it. Somewhere between being an unfertilized egg and being a post-delivery infant, a human comes into being. Blues, Dave The word "delivery" says it all. Until the woman delivers it, it is hers and not society's. The responsibilty is hers, the choice is hers and hers alone. The rest of us should butt out. By my count that is just 3 that hold the 'choice of the mother at any time for any reason' position. At least it's a logically defensible position. It's none of our business until the woman delivers it to society. Period. Society already recognizes this. You can't get a tax allowance, state ID card or SSN for the baby until the baby is delivered.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,046 #178 February 24, 2006 >It's none of our business until the woman delivers it to society. Period. Uh, John, that's just a term. She really keeps the baby; she doesn't deliver it to society. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #179 February 24, 2006 QuoteSociety already recognizes this. You can't get a tax allowance, state ID card or SSN for the baby until the baby is delivered. I think you've got a good point there. In order to advocate a limitation on abortion depending on the age of the fetus, at some point during the pregnancy, it should be considered a person, and be granted those kinds of recognition by the govt. If it dies, then a death certificate would also be in order. Kind of a formal acknowledgment of human rights before the birth certificate. Very appropriate. I think adding this to the overall platform/position of pro-life groups would strengthen their cause. Of course the 'life at conception' advocates would have trouble, but good for those that are OK with some intermediate position.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,046 #180 February 24, 2006 >In order to advocate a limitation on abortion depending on the >age of the fetus, at some point during the pregnancy, it should be > considered a person . . . . Anti-abortion types have already started this. It's now a crime to kill a fetus in the commission of another crime. I think it would be silly to get a state ID card for a ten month old baby though - even if it does make a political statement about the "realness" of the baby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #181 February 24, 2006 QuotePsychopathy is a personality disorder, not a mental disease. Disorders can most definitely be remedied. We disagree. I've already had this argument twice here in SC, and it's not worth having again. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #182 February 24, 2006 QuoteQuoteInterestingly, only 1 percent of the abortions that happen in a year are after 24 weeks. Not that it changes anything. I just thought that was interesting.I know that. We're arguing over an awfully small number, aren't we? Pretending that they all have the potential to be late-term or something like that. leading me to conclude the slippery slope concerns are extremely valid. Third trimester abortions are the .50 caliber "sniper" rifle of the issue - easy to use for propoganda, and a lot of the prochoice crowd also have concerns. Once you've established that the mother is lower on the totem poll for rights and health, move backwards. We have people here that consider viable life at the point of fertilization, making the morning after pill murder and female biology a mass killer in general considering how often the egg fails to implant anyway. And at this point of standard, male masturbation is 1-100 million murders per act. And at this point, I as a man really am affected, so I'm going to say no fucking way. The 1st Amendmend grants freedom of religious choice, which means freedom FROM religion. Most of the arguments being made are driven by theology (souls), not biology. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,092 #183 February 24, 2006 Quote>It's none of our business until the woman delivers it to society. Period. Uh, John, that's just a term. She really keeps the baby; she doesn't deliver it to society. Words have meaning. Society doesn't own any of us but acknowledges our membership from the time of BIRTH. We celebrate BIRTHdays. We get to be adults on the anniversary of our BIRTH. We cease to be eligible to be airline pilots 60 years after our BIRTH. We can get a tax allowance or SSN only after BIRTH. Our drivers license and passports record the daste of our BIRTH. It is abundantly clear that BIRTH is the moment at which we enter society.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #184 February 24, 2006 QuoteMost of the arguments being made are driven by theology (souls), not biology. You mean in this thread? I'd disagree, there are quite a few good biology driven arguments. Just because the bulk of the posts from both sides are rather extreme, doesn't invalidate some of the better dialogue here. (the point that ~1% are post 24 weeks is a good point, the argument that brain activity is a good place to define a separate life is a good discussion). It's the all or nothing crowd on both ends that put me off my feed. But, if you mean the two groups of picket sign carrying screamers in front of abortion clinics yelling at each other from opposite sides of the street, then sure, those arguments are pretty incoherent. This isn't a religion issue at all. Anymore than having laws about stealing or murder or fraud is. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #185 February 24, 2006 QuoteWould it still be called an abortion if the mother's life was at risk? A "miscarriage" is also an abortion. Spontaneous abortionIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #186 February 24, 2006 QuoteWords have meaning. Society doesn't own any of us but acknowledges our membership from the time of BIRTH. We celebrate BIRTHdays. We get to be adults on the anniversary of our BIRTH. We cease to be eligible to be airline pilots 60 years after our BIRTH. We can get a tax allowance or SSN only after BIRTH. Our drivers license and passports record the daste of our BIRTH. It is abundantly clear that BIRTH is the moment at which we enter society. very incoherent and oversimplified, even for you - I wouldn't doubt that this argument, in it's tone and content does more harm to the pro-choice crowd than help. Especially with linguists and logical thinkers. In fact, this has changed my position on abortion - I'm more conservative now. Instead allowing it through the 80th trimester, I'm backing off to the 67th trimester (16th birthday). you aren't really a person until the government issues a driver's license. Yeah, let the DOT define what life means. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ccowden 0 #187 February 24, 2006 QuoteWe disagree. No way! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #188 February 24, 2006 QuoteQuoteWe disagree. No way! Aw, c'mon, Chris...I'm mean...sometimes we agree, right? Well...uh...once, anyway. This is just one that I've argued so fiercely, I don't feel like doing it again, at least not so soon. And it's kind of off the real track of this debate anyway. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,046 #190 February 24, 2006 >Words have meaning. Yes. And delivery means physical movement; nothing about a change of status. Babies are not 'delivered' to society. >but acknowledges our membership from the time of BIRTH. That's better. Yes, that's what society does now. I disagree that a fetus seconds from being born is much different at all from a baby seconds _after_ it is born, even though society places much import on that particular time. However, there is a huge difference between an eight cell embryo and a fetus a few seconds from being born. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #191 February 24, 2006 QuoteWe did? That this was very funny: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2068282#2068282 And, of course, we agree that Peter needs a spanking. Many, many spankings. If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,092 #192 February 24, 2006 Quote>Words have meaning. Yes. And delivery means physical movement; nothing about a change of status. Babies are not 'delivered' to society. They are delivered by the mother. There is physical movement; it is inside the mother at one time and outside at a later time. I watched 3 kids being born and none of them used a Star Trek transporter.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,092 #193 February 24, 2006 Why did the SD legislature vote down the proposed referendum? Is there a belief that the SD public wouldn't support it? Apparently SD taxpayers don't want to pay for the inevitable lawsuit, and consequently the only way to get something done that the taxpayers don't want to pay for and that the politicians don't want to pay for is to find a private, anonymous person who will effectively purchase public policy that is not taxpayer or voter supported. Seems to me that this anonymous private donor has bought the SD legislature.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,046 #194 February 24, 2006 >They are delivered by the mother. Exactly. They physically move from inside the womb to outside. Nothing to do with "society." I've seen births as well, and no paperwork emerges along with the baby, nor is it bodily shot into a government office. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,092 #195 February 24, 2006 Quote>They are delivered by the mother. Exactly. They physically move from inside the womb to outside. Nothing to do with "society." I've seen births as well, and no paperwork emerges along with the baby, nor is it bodily shot into a government office. Paperwork? See how far you get trying to obtain a Social Security Card or passport for a fetus. Being born is the demarcation defining the beginning of personhood that our society has chosen to make. And the process is generally called "delivery".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,046 #196 February 24, 2006 This is the dumbest semantics argument I've ever had on here. I take that back; I've had some dumb ones. But it's in the top 10. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #197 February 24, 2006 Quote Seems to me that this anonymous private donor has bought the SD legislature. I've always wondered how long it will be before lawmakers start wearing NASCAR-style jackets with all their sponsors' logos on them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #198 February 24, 2006 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And I apologize if I sound too harsh, I did grow up with a father who got arrested for protesting abortion He had the courage to stand up for what he believed, even if that meant getting thrown in jail. Like him, I am not afraid to back down on my position about this, not matter the disagreements that will be thrown at me -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you elaborate on this for me? The last time I checked, it wasn't illegal to protest abortion. There are, of course limits as to how people protest, but no one was ever jailed under a charge of simply protesting abortion. What was he charged with?"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #199 February 25, 2006 Quote South Dakota ban's abortion Look out, here comes an S! First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #200 February 25, 2006 QuoteQuote South Dakota ban's abortion Look out, here comes an S! It's been irritating me since the thread started. Luckily, I prevented a second thread with the same mistake from being on the board. But, like I said in the other thread, it's nothing personal to you Hobbes4star, it's just my little peeve. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
