Rebecca 0 #126 February 24, 2006 I'm glad you appreciated the post. But I was hoping for a response from a debater on the (theological) pro-life side. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #127 February 24, 2006 Quote1 - every sperm is precious Duh! that's why guys get so mad when it's spit out! There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #128 February 24, 2006 If someone voluntarily wishes to give birth to a seriously deformed and/or disabled child, they should be free to do so. They should NOT expect society at large to care for their child if they cannot do it. That is incredible arrogance. ----------------------------------- I have no idea what I said to suggest that I believed the retarded population was society at large's burden. But in any case, I don't. I believe in personal responsibility. You know, unlike the typical lefty, Its takes a village ============================= If someone does NOT wish to give birth to such a child, who are you or Windcatcher to criticize their decision? What standing do you have in the matter? ------------------------------------------------- So are you saying you are against abortion as long as the child is not handicapped/retarded, etc. Me, I am against abortion on all fronts, except to save a mother's life. Rape is a difficult one to address because, it was geniunely not the mother's choice to get pregnant. However, it still does not seem to justify murder. ============================= Just curious, how many children have you raised to adulthood? I don't know if I will ever have children or not. Maybe in 8 years when I finish paying off my house since I am still relatively young. Until then, my dogs suffice. I have however been sexually active more times than I can possibly count. My point there is I think you need to be pretty stupid to have an unwanted pregnancy. And though it is unfortunate that such stupidity common, I don't think that is a good reason to justify murder. Oh and just incase you or anyone else forgot, my opinion has nothing to do with any religion and everything to do with science. Although I was raised Catholic and believe sincerely as a child, I am as agnostic as they come. ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #129 February 24, 2006 QuoteMy point there is I think you need to be pretty stupid to have an unwanted pregnancy. No, you don't. Yes, there are people who get pregnant while on the pill and using a condom.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #130 February 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteMy point there is I think you need to be pretty stupid to have an unwanted pregnancy. No, you don't. Yes, there are people who get pregnant while on the pill and using a condom. or using the injectables, which are supposed to be as idiot proof as it gets. My sister found herself pregnant without realizing it until month 5 or so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MC208B 0 #131 February 25, 2006 I'm not a female, so it's none of my business. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #132 February 25, 2006 This is a hot, interesting topic, and this reply is NOT directed at anyone in particular. For me, it's all about choice. I hear people saying "well, we should be able to do (currently illegal) drugs, it's our life..." or "we should be able to own the weapon of our choice to protect ourselves...it's our choice." It's all the same issue, boiled down to it's essence. It's about choice. Freedom to choose an action, and live with the consequences. It's not about the state telling me what to do with my body, how to protect my body, or what drugs I can put into my body. I get to choose...and handle the consequences, as well. It's no-one's right to tell me what I can and can't do with my life. Right? Specifically for the topic of abortion, SD is completely wrong for passing a law which inhibits choice. I can go further and say it's a law which promotes discrimination, because it only affects one gender. I can go further than that, even, and say that it is skewed to be racially discriminating, as some statistics show that minorities have more abortions than do white women. But what it really is, is an abuse of a woman's right to choose the path her life will take, to accept the consequences of either carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term, or to abort it. (And there are deep consequences of termination, I guarantee you that.). It's about choice...what is right and moral for me cannot be automatically assumed to be right and moral for another. It is not religious; that's a completely different argument. It's about choice. It's not about the life of the mother. It's not even about the right of a child to live if they are handicapped. It's about one woman's choice, involving her, and her partner (most times). Only peripherially is it about a Dr. And it is NOT my place to tell anyone, ever, what they can do with their body or not do with their body. If I make a choice, it's my choice to make. If you make a choice, it's YOURS to make. We will both live with the consequences of a series of choices that we make on a regular, daily basis...but don't tell me what I can and cannot do with my body, no more so than I get to tell you what YOU can do with yours. I get to be in charge of my life, and you get to be in charge of yours. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dolph 0 #133 February 25, 2006 QuoteI'm glad you appreciated the post. But I was hoping for a response from a debater on the (theological) pro-life side. You'll have one. It just takes a little longer for 'em to post if it is not in their FAQ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #134 February 25, 2006 Quote I would rather terminate than drop out of uni to have a baby (at this stage in my life) Abstenence is a great way to prevent an unplaned pregnancy... Problem solved... QuoteI would rather terminate than bring a baby into an abusive relationship. Gee... I'm thinking there's more problems then unplanned pregnancy for someone in an Abusive Relationship... Like well Abuse!!! QuoteAbortion is a very imdividual thing and should be left at that. I agree that it isn't government or anyone elses place to tell us how to treat our own bodies... but these reasons are NOT very good reasons to terminate because they can both be prevented... There's a reason I've chosen to remain abstenent in my life above and beyond the fact that I "hope" to save myself for one woman and one woman only... its that until I marry I don't feel as though I can successfully provide an environment where I am able to raise a child...Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #135 February 25, 2006 Quote Abstenence is a great way to prevent an unplaned pregnancy... Problem solved... Abstainence does not solve the problem of unplanned pregnancy if the woman is raped. An unplanned pregnancy isn't always because a woman was irresponsible, or stupid, as others have implied. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #136 February 25, 2006 QuoteAbstainence does not solve the problem of unplanned pregnancy if the woman is raped. An unplanned pregnancy isn't always because a woman was irresponsible, or stupid, as others have implied. I agree... which is why I don't think it is the right of anyone to make that decision but the girl... Women are capable of minimizing the chances of finding themselves in a situation where they could be raped... that's not to say it can necessarily eliminated completely... a casual serial rapist (as I understand from the training I've recieved is very good at what he does...) A good example: I have many nights been DD for my friends... In these situations I have been asked to ensure that my friends make it home safe (regardless of how much they've had to drink and what decisions they might make under these conditions...) and go figure they made it home safe even though it meant that I was out much later then I might have wanted too because... that is what a "friend" does...Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #137 February 25, 2006 QuoteAbstenence is a great way to prevent an unplaned pregnancy... Problem solved... Yes... and no. Abstinence is typically taught along with no sex-ed what so ever. This means that all the kids that have sex anyway are in deep trouble, since they don't know how to protect themselves.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #138 February 25, 2006 QuoteIt's about choice...what is right and moral for me cannot be automatically assumed to be right and moral for another. It sounds like you're describing moral relativism. I think that not many would agree that there are no moral absolutes. QuoteIt's about one woman's choice, involving her, and her partner (most times). Are you saying that the father should have a say in it? It would seem that you have to conclude that it is not a life until birth, or that mothers have the right to kill their unborn children.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,070 #139 February 25, 2006 QuoteIf someone voluntarily wishes to give birth to a seriously deformed and/or disabled child, they should be free to do so. They should NOT expect society at large to care for their child if they cannot do it. That is incredible arrogance. ----------------------------------- I have no idea what I said to suggest that I believed the retarded population was society at large's burden. But in any case, I don't. I believe in personal responsibility. You know, unlike the typical lefty, Its takes a village ============================= In that case, the potential mother of the child should have the right to make the decision, shouldn't she? Who will care for that child when he/she is 45 years old and the mother is 80? You? Quote If someone does NOT wish to give birth to such a child, who are you or Windcatcher to criticize their decision? What standing do you have in the matter? ------------------------------------------------- So are you saying you are against abortion as long as the child is not handicapped/retarded, etc. You haven't been paying attention. I am in favor of the ABSOLUTE right of the woman to make the decision for herself without interference from you, me, or the government. Quote Me, I am against abortion on all fronts, except to save a mother's life. Rape is a difficult one to address because, it was geniunely not the mother's choice to get pregnant. However, it still does not seem to justify murder. ============================= So WHAT IS your solution for the raped woman Quote Just curious, how many children have you raised to adulthood? I don't know if I will ever have children or not. Maybe in 8 years when I finish paying off my house since I am still relatively young. Until then, my dogs suffice. I have however been sexually active more times than I can possibly count. My point there is I think you need to be pretty stupid to have an unwanted pregnancy. And though it is unfortunate that such stupidity common, I don't think that is a good reason to justify murder. Oh and just incase you or anyone else forgot, my opinion has nothing to do with any religion and everything to do with science. Although I was raised Catholic and believe sincerely as a child, I am as agnostic as they come. , Abortion isn't murder, don't confuse the issue. If you haven't raised any children I think you have NO FUCKING CLUE about the issues involved here.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #140 February 25, 2006 QuoteAbortion isn't murder, don't confuse the issue. I think most people disagree, at least at some time during the pregnancy. If it is considered murder, then why should the raped mother's wishes outweigh the right to live? I think this issue is appropriate to establish by law or constitutional amendment, not for the courts to settle over the issue of privacy.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #141 February 25, 2006 QuoteIf it is considered murder, then why should the raped mother's wishes outweigh the right to live? Would you really tell a 14 year old, poor girl who has just been brutally raped that she HAS to give birth? Really? That's pretty sick.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,070 #142 February 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf it is considered murder, then why should the raped mother's wishes outweigh the right to live? Would you really tell a 14 year old, poor girl who has just been brutally raped that she HAS to give birth? Really? That's pretty sick. Apparently he and ccowden would. It is sick, isn't it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #143 February 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf it is considered murder, then why should the raped mother's wishes outweigh the right to live? Would you really tell a 14 year old, poor girl who has just been brutally raped that she HAS to give birth? Really? That's pretty sick. Only after a certain point of the pregnancy. Not easy to do, but it is the only consistent thing to do if you believe it is a life worth protecting as any other. It is easy to describe circumstances to get sympathy for the mother, but how does the value of the life get diminished by those circumstances? Of course there is no conflict if you take the position that it is not a life until birth or the mother always has the right to kill it before birth. I haven't labeled your priorities as sick, I don't think helps the discussion to insult mine.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #144 February 25, 2006 QuoteYou haven't been paying attention. I am in favor of the ABSOLUTE right of the woman to make the decision for herself without interference from you, me, or the government. He can't separate the two arguments, John, even when the two parts are submitted as being separate. I mentioned something about there being more than one issue earlier in the thread, but it was ignored. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #145 February 25, 2006 I hope you remember this the next time the government threatens to control your rights in another area. What's near and dear to your heart? What happens when the government comes in and tells you what you can and cannot do relating to whatever that happens to be? rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #146 February 25, 2006 QuoteI hope you remember this the next time the government threatens to control your rights in another area. What's near and dear to your heart? What happens when the government comes in and tells you what you can and cannot do relating to whatever that happens to be? rl If the unborn baby has no rights, then there is no controversy. Clearly a lot of people think it does, at least at some point. The govt has the right to prohibit killing, does it not? So, it comes down to whether and when it is actually killing, and whether that should be allowed if it is still in the mother's body. I think slippery slope arguments are just distractions. I can't understand the argument that "govt shouldn't intrude because of what they might do next". There could be no laws limiting your actions with that position.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #147 February 25, 2006 Thanks Michele I wish more people would have a bit more realistic approach to this subject. Is so heated for so many. To require abstinance has not worked since pre-history. and you said QuoteIt's about one woman's choice, involving her, and her partner (most times). I would argue that it still falls on just her MOST times. How many times in your own life have you beleived a really good set of lines from your "partner" and then the relationship just seemed to evaporate within a few days after the deed was done. I know of far too many who have faced that choice... but its her choice at that point because the partner has moved on to the next conquest. Hell I have seen it here... after the boogie.. poof... he is gone and we have another thread in womens forum. What then happens under the NEW and IMPROVED moral code of the United States of America. Oh yeah.. I remember. SCARLET LETTERS will be all the rage again.... while carrying the baby to term. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #148 February 25, 2006 QuoteIf the unborn baby has no rights, then there is no controversy. The fetus can have rights without saying the rights of the fetus supersede the rights of the mother. What those rights are remains to be seen. Quote Clearly a lot of people think it does, at least at some point. Let's stop talking about "what the public thinks" and "what other people think." If you speak for just yourself, that'll be fine. QuoteThe govt has the right to prohibit killing, does it not? Well, only with the permission of the people, I thought. Goverment has started overreaching a little, IMO. The government also seems to have the right to mandate killing. After all, it's not murder if they give you a gun and ship you to Iraq. Words can get mighty slippery at times. Quote So, it comes down to whether and when it is actually killing, and whether that should be allowed if it is still in the mother's body. It is killing by definition. The question is: is it murder? QuoteI think slippery slope arguments are just distractions. I think if you're going to be so cautious of one fallacy, you might want to consider giving at least passing thought to all the rest. QuoteI can't understand the argument that "govt shouldn't intrude because of what they might do next". There could be no laws limiting your actions with that position. I was trying for an analogy, not for the argument you tried to attribute to me. You missed the point. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #149 February 25, 2006 QuoteI think if you're going to be so cautious of one fallacy, you might want to consider giving at least passing thought to all the rest. I'm not following this thread but I want to say this is one of the finest lines I've ever read First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,346 #150 February 25, 2006 QuoteIf you haven't raised any children I think you have NO FUCKING CLUE about the issues involved here. OK. Now, I'm confused. The subject is abortion, isn't it? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
