quade 4 #1 March 2, 2006 http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/02/catholic.town.ap/index.html Un-be-f'in'-lievable . . . No, just because you have a lot of money doesn't NOT mean you can actually rule over people's lives.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,997 #2 March 2, 2006 "Gov. Jeb Bush, at the site's groundbreaking earlier this month, lauded the development as a new kind of town where faith and freedom will merge to create a community of like-minded citizens." By those standards, Iran is way ahead of us - and Afghanistan used to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #3 March 3, 2006 QuoteNo, just because you have a lot of money doesn't NOT mean you can actually rule over people's lives. So a rich guy buys a bunch of land and says people can live and work there if they abide by his strict rules. What's the problem again? First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #4 March 3, 2006 Isn't this called a commune?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #5 March 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteNo, just because you have a lot of money doesn't NOT mean you can actually rule over people's lives. So a rich guy buys a bunch of land and says people can live and work there if they abide by his strict rules. What's the problem again? Quite right, it is not like he is changing an old neighborhood.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Balls 0 #6 March 3, 2006 It's the Catholic version of Utah---------------------------------------- ....so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #7 March 3, 2006 I'm not seeing the problem either. It's a large scale planned community, with clearly stated intent. That puts it ahead of a lot of neighborhoods with hidden details in the CC&Rs. Irvine started this trend, and it appears to hold up in court. The story is a bit light on details that could sway the question one way or the other. Certainly townships can control commercial entities, as well as the cable. Not sure they can require a pharmacy to not fullfill birth control orders, probably could do the condom ban. But I don't think they could stop people from getting their porn via satellite or broadband, and certainly can't monitor what they're doing inside the home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #8 March 3, 2006 One of the stated goals of Ava Marie is to ensure that no one in the community is allowed to practice any religion other then "the one true" religion. Issue comes in them reciving government tax dollars to enforce this.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #9 March 3, 2006 I think the ACLU needs to get a grip. Isn't this almost exactly what the Pilgrims did? rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #10 March 3, 2006 Quote Isn't this almost exactly what the Pilgrims did? Now, I might be a little shakey on my history, but didn't the Pilgrims come -well- BEFORE the US Constitution was written? See, that's the issue here, the US Constitution and especially that First Amendment to it that says you can't make laws regarding certain things. Again, I'm not holding myself out to be some sort of Constitutional scholar or somethin', but anyone that's taken junior high-school civics -ought- to see the problem here.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #11 March 3, 2006 QuoteOne of the stated goals of Ava Marie is to ensure that no one in the community is allowed to practice any religion other then "the one true" religion. Issue comes in them reciving government tax dollars to enforce this. how would they enforce it? If it's just a matter of them forcing a home sale, it would probably be supportable. A ban on front lawn displays - almost certainly. Just look at Irvine's restrictions on appearance. making criminal laws over it - probably not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #12 March 3, 2006 Quote So a rich guy buys a bunch of land and says people can live and work there if they abide by his strict rules. What's the problem again? From HUD's website QuoteTitle VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 (Fair Housing Act), as amended, prohibits discrimination in the sale, rental, and financing of dwellings, and in other housing-related transactions, based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status (including children under the age of 18 living with parents of legal custodians, pregnant women, and people securing custody of children under the age of 18), and handicap (disability). Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #13 March 3, 2006 QuoteFrom HUD's website: {snip} That seems clear enough. The community will probably find itself unable to enforce any religious proscriptions on residents. But that does still leave the commercial properties. I assume this guy can put restrictive business clauses in his rental contracts. Even that is probably a legal minefield however. Personally I don't see a MORAL proble. If he wants to offer land for sale only to Catholics (or Jews or heterosexuals or dog fanciers) with sales contracts which limit resale to similar groups it makes sense to me. The free market would be able to work things out in the end. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #14 March 3, 2006 QuotePersonally I don't see a MORAL proble. If he wants to offer land for sale only to Catholics (or Jews or heterosexuals or dog fanciers) with sales contracts which limit resale to similar groups it makes sense to me. The free market would be able to work things out in the end. Presumably you haven't ever had any difficulty finding a home close to your job due to it being in a a "straights only" neighborhood? Quite a few years didn't fix "whites only" neighborhoods, that's why the FHA was passed in the first place. Yes, I'm mostly just arguing for the sake of it. I wouldn't really care if all the Mormons moved to Salt Lake City, Catholics to this town, etc. I just wouldn't like what such moves would represent (polarization versus homogenization). Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #15 March 3, 2006 QuotePresumably you haven't ever had any difficulty finding a home close to your job due to it being in a a "straights only" neighborhood? You're right. I've had no problem with housing or employment. On the other hand I HAVE had difficulty in getting married. But that topic's been beaten to death in other threads... First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 333 #16 March 3, 2006 I knew about 12 years ago, which is when I had my last slice of Domino's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MC208B 0 #17 March 3, 2006 Well, the no porn part of it sucks..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #18 March 3, 2006 QuoteFrom HUD's website QuoteTitle VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 (Fair Housing Act), as amended, prohibits discrimination in the sale, rental, and financing of dwellings, and in other housing-related transactions, based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status (including children under the age of 18 living with parents of legal custodians, pregnant women, and people securing custody of children under the age of 18), and handicap (disability). I didn't see in the article that there is any intention to violate the above provision. I don't know how comfortable a non-Catholic would be living there, but unless they refuse to sell to non-Catholics, the issue, if any, will lie in the commercial lease restrictions. And that will surely be interesting. (And I still don't see anything wrong with it.) rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #19 March 3, 2006 Quotehttp://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/02/catholic.town.ap/index.html Un-be-f'in'-lievable . . . No, just because you have a lot of money doesn't NOT mean you can actually rule over people's lives. ya know, why don't you just apply the same "wisdom" that you (collectively) have applied to so many other things that christians/catholics have objected to in society, like the prevelance of porn, the ability to get an abortion on demand, etc.... don't like what monahan is doing in that part of Florida, DON'T LIVE THERE! the amazing thing is that if christians/catholics gripe about things in secular society that they find objectionable, a bunch of you say that very thing... don't like it, don't watch it or, don't agree w/ it, don't do it, just don't force your morality on us. but here we have a man who is starting a community for LIKE MINDED PEOPLE and you're OBJECTING??? I mean, come on quade, just who do you think will WANT to move in here? Satanists? Members of NARAL? Give me a bleepin break. Tom and his little followers want to build a village where they are free (relatively) of the "evils" of secular society and you are objecting. the double standard is just sickening. this has nothing to do w/ Tom wanting to "force" his beliefs down anyone's throat... he has a VERY large following (but truth be told, it's not "his" following, they are really faithful catholics who believe in what he is doing) and the type of people who will live there will CHOOSE to do so. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #20 March 3, 2006 Quotesurely be interesting. (And I still don't see anything wrong with it.) This thread has been haunting me while I was off playing piano. This looks to be a purely voluntary organization. If they wanted to limit membership to avowed Catholics, I think that's just peachy. Hell, if they wanted to establish rules about self-mutilation and can find enough volunteers, more power too them. It's only when non-volunteers get roped in that I see a moral problem. So I've been wondering how this might get to that point. 1) If this became popular enough that a large fraction of a landmass was involved, then non-participants could find it difficult to live in the shrinking remaining areas. So it's unproblematic so long as it stays small scale. 2) New births into the community introduce non-volunteers. But minors suffer this sort of thing everywhere. I feel sorry for them but this doesn't seem to be much different than living in a restrictive household. One presumes children could leave at adulthood. 3) If the economy of this community thrives while the neighboring areas decline, people might feel inclined to move in for non-religious reasons. People get weird when they choose to live somewhere for a job even though they object to social characteristics. But still, one signs on for the whole package even if one only desires a part. So I'd say to the extent that membership remains completely voluntary, they have the moral right (although probably not the legal right) to write up the most restrictive charter the owner can imagine. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #21 March 3, 2006 QuoteNo, just because you have a lot of money doesn't NOT mean you can actually rule over people's lives. and BTW... that statement is very far from the truth... I know Monahan... he was on the Board of Trustees of the university I attended. That's not his style. Not in the least. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jayruss 0 #22 March 3, 2006 What it doesn't tell is is what is just outside the town. I'm thinking we could open a porn/boozes/condem store and actually make a lot of money __________________________________________________ "Beware how you take away hope from another human being." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #23 March 3, 2006 QuoteWhat it doesn't tell is is what is just outside the town. I'm thinking we could open a porn/boozes/condem store and actually make a lot of money That's brilliant! First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #24 March 3, 2006 >>>>During a speech last year at a Catholic men's gathering in Boston, Monaghan said that in his community, stores will not sell pornographic magazines, pharmacies will not carry condoms or birth control pills, and cable television will have no X-rated channels. Sounds a lot like Utah....Will there also be weird liquor laws? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #25 March 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat it doesn't tell is is what is just outside the town. I'm thinking we could open a porn/boozes/condem store and actually make a lot of money That's brilliant! Yea Capitolism! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
