The science of sexual orientation

[Steel 0]

I know it's hard to imagine, but that is the situation that most gay couples have to deal with all the time... And if you can imagine yourself in that situation, would you still go to the wedding and keep your distance from your girlfriend? Or would you choose not to hang around the kind of people who would get sick if they saw you holding her hand?
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Keeping my distance might be understood as sitting on one end of the hall while my girlfriend was in another. That was not the case. If that was the case I was presented with then ofcourse not.

In this world there are many things that we have to accept even if we don't agree with them. For instance I think that justifying abortion when knowing the facts is an attrosity. But I don't completely dissassociate myself from anybody who thinks its ok.

As I said if 95% of the population had a different sexual orientation than me, I may have been conditioned to tolerate their intolerence of my sexual orientation. Then again I may not have, can't say for sure.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[billvon 3,074]

>I know it's hard to imagine, but that is the situation that most gay couples have to deal with all the time. . .

We did a murder-mystery thing last night with Amy's 8 way team. Amy and I played characters where we were supposed to be very cold to each other (philandering senator and power hungry wife.) Was very odd having to stand there and not touch each other for most of the night. Hard to believe that anyone would want to impose that on a couple because it made _them_ uncomfortable.

When I was in elementary school, I had a friend named Marc. We hung out a lot throughout elementary and middle school. I still see him a lot. He's gay, and often has to deal with the sort of attitudes shown here (i.e. "that's disgusting!") As a result, he's become a little bit of a recluse; he and his partner often just stay home rather than risking society's reproach. I think that's sad, and it's something that we should work on changing as a society.

Often, I think that people who think gays are gross, and should not be seen in public (or at least not be seen being gay in public) don't have many gay friends. This can become something of a self-fulfilling prophecy; their friends who _are_ gay see such behavior and either avoid them or keep their orientation a secret from them. So from the anti-public-gay* crowd, things look just dandy; there are no (or very few) gays for them to deal with. This leads to a lot of isolation and unhappiness, in my experience - as well as a worldview that is skewed by their own (perhaps unconscious) efforts.

(* - we need a different word for this. APG?)

[Trent 0]

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Congenital adrenal hyperplasia can render people infertile; that's a good reason to treat it.

Maybe they were "meant" to be infertile. That's not a health risk.

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Umm...not to mention the mortality risk.... That's another good reason to treat it.

Now THAT is a good reason to treat it... BUT (you knew it was coming, right?) on the extreme side, someone could say that we shouldn't be monkeying with how a fetus develops... maybe it should have the increased mortality risk. But that's just for conversation... not my opinion.

Oh, hello again!

[narcimund 0]

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we shouldn't be monkeying with how a fetus develops...

Fascinating idea. Of course if one believes all fetal medical intervention is improper, that leads to the corollary that perhaps all adult medical intervention is also. If God wants someone to have diabetes, cardiac infarction, or cancer, who are we mortals to get in his way?

Hell, while we're at it if God wants us to be hungry, who are we to eat food and mess up his plans?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[billvon 3,074]

>BUT (you knew it was coming, right?) on the extreme side, someone
>could say that we shouldn't be monkeying with how a fetus develops...

Of course; christian scientists say just that. Such things are false illnesses (according to them) and the challenge is to help people realize the false reality of their infirmity.

But I assume you do not subscribe to that. The other extreme is trying to produce a race of blond-haired blue-eyed perfect humans, and I assume you would not subscribe to _that_ approach either. As is often the case, a saner middle ground can be found. (I know, that's quite the antithesis of Speaker's Corner, but bear with me here.)

I think most people accept that we can (and should) treat disease, whether it occurs prenatally or postnatally. I think most people also accept that we should not take extraordinary measures to alter cosmetic or non-dangerous behavioral traits. In other words, gene therapy, hormone treatment or invasive surgery might well be appropriate to treat Trisomy 21 or spina bifida, but not to change a child's personality, eye color or shoe size - even if having blue eyes is abnormal statistically. Of course there will be extremes that think both are bad or both are totally acceptable.

The issue here, I think, is that some people think that homosexuality is a disease to be "cured." It warps a normal wholesome child into a sex crazed sodomite or something, and that is something to be stopped at all costs. That's where the problems begin - because that's not based on any sort of reality, but rather on a false presupposition as to what being gay is.

[Trent 0]

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Fascinating idea. Of course if one believes all fetal medical intervention is improper, that leads to the corollary that perhaps all adult medical intervention is also. If God wants someone to have diabetes, cardiac infarction, or cancer, who are we mortals to get in his way?

Hell, while we're at it if God wants us to be hungry, who are we to eat food and mess up his plans?

Fuck yeah! Food is just an addiction with EXTREME withdrawal symptoms anyway.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

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But I assume you do not subscribe to that. The other extreme is trying to produce a race of blond-haired blue-eyed perfect humans, and I assume you would not subscribe to _that_ approach either.

You don't have to assume... it was in my post that I didn't hold that opinion.

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The issue here, I think, is that some people think that homosexuality is a disease to be "cured."

If research is showing that homosexuality (or in this case, feminine behavior) is caused by an under-exposure to certain hormones... then it is definitely up for debate on whether or not it is something that should be treated. A lot of people rejected the idea that homosexuality was a psychological problem, many people want it to be genetic, but then if someone comes up with research saying that it is due to a lack of hormones during fetal development and that it may be "fixable"... that's bad too. Of course parents will love their kids no matter what... with a few retarded exceptions, but it isn't unnatural for parents to want their children to grow up straight either. I guess I just don't see "fixing" it to be as extreme as messing with genetics to create a little superman. You guys do... okay. We disagree on many things.

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It warps a normal wholesome child into a sex crazed sodomite or something, and that is something to be stopped at all costs. That's where the problems begin - because that's not based on any sort of reality, but rather on a false presupposition as to what being gay is.

So parents who would prefer to have a straight kid think that gays are sex crazed sodomites? Where'd you get that... no one here is saying that. Like I said, most parents will love the kids no matter what... but would probably prefer them to be straight. What's wrong with that?

Oh, hello again!

[narcimund 0]

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if someone comes up with research saying that it is due to a lack of hormones during fetal development

"Variation in hormones" is neutral while "lack" is a value judgement. And if you don't consider homosexuality to be a pathology, then the very notion of "fixable" is a non-sequitur.

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... think that gays are sex crazed sodomites? Where'd you get that... no one here is saying that.

Actually, lots of people here DO say that, although not yet in this particular thread. It's reasonable to acknowledge the related opinions of the participants even if they haven't mentioned them in this week's gay thread yet.

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Like I said, most parents will love the kids no matter what... but would probably prefer them to be straight. What's wrong with that?

A huge number of parents hate their gay kids and give them untold grief, often resulting in teen suicide.

These parents prefer their kids to be straight to such an exaggerated extent that they torture them if they aren't.

I am strongly suspect of any parents who would go to medical lengths to change their child's sexual orientation. I see that as about halfway along the scale from healthy disinterest to destructively obsessive.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Lindsey 0]

If research is showing that homosexuality (or in this case, feminine behavior) is caused by an under-exposure to certain hormones... then it is definitely up for debate on whether or not it is something that should be treated.

Feminine behavior should not be confused with homosexuality, I don't think. It might approach being some kind of measure of gender identification....maybe, but not of homosexuality.

I think that most homosexual men probably identify pretty strongly with the male gender, and feel/act more masculine than feminine.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[rehmwa 2]

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Of course searching for posts by rehmwa also shows a larger context so I'll stop trying to explain now.

You just can't help yourself, can you? I asked why would you pass up any opportunity to kindly put forth an education to someone that needs it.

Why don't you educate me on my 'larger context'? What does that mean? Oh no, someone is trying to make me defensive, what, oh what shall I do. Well, here we go -

I hope most think my 'larger context' is a general disdain for both of the US parties, amusement and horror both for politics in general, impatience with people that take themselves and their petty issues too seriously, sadness for the self proclaimed victims, a vote or too for personal responsibility, no tolerance for bullies, and not treating anyone with a different set of standards.

And general good will for the people on these forums as long as they also are courteous. There's about 6 or 7 people across the spectrum that can't seem to do evem that. I don't care what drove them to that attitude - I only know how they communicate.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[narcimund 0]

And to continue the thought, I'm curious what will happen if someday a prenatal hormonal basis is discovered for people being sexually attracted to other races. Perhaps it will be found that a surfeit of fetal melanostrone causes white boys to prefer black girls or some such.

Anyone want to argue for a medical "fix" for this situation so parents who'd rather their children marry within their own race can be more comfortable?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[narcimund 0]

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I asked why would you pass up any opportunity to kindly put forth an education to someone that needs it.

I would never pass up a chance to educate someone who was sincerely eager and open to new information. I am certain this was not an example of that.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[billvon 3,074]

>If research is showing that homosexuality (or in this case, feminine
> behavior) is caused by an under-exposure to certain hormones...

Just as masculine heterosexual behavior is caused by overexposure to testosterone. That statement alone does not equal "therefore that problem should be treated."

>A lot of people rejected the idea that homosexuality was a psychological
> problem . . .

I think you've got that a bit backwards. The central issue people are discussing here isn't whether it's a psychological or genetic problem. People here are arguing that it is NOT A MEDICAL PROBLEM AT ALL (other than to people who want to puke when they see it.)

Now, someone may decide that gays are going to 'destroy the families of the US' or 'bring down God's vengeance' or some such, but that is an entirely different argument - a political rather than a medical one.

>Of course parents will love their kids no matter what... with a few
>retarded exceptions, but it isn't unnatural for parents to want their
>children to grow up straight either.

Nor is it unnatural for them to want them to be tall, or brainy, or war heroes. But messing about with their early development to try to 'fix' the 'problem' of shortness is going a bit overboard (IMO.)

>So parents who would prefer to have a straight kid think that gays are
>sex crazed sodomites?

Some are, yes. Look no further than right wing blogs. Heck, US senators have openly compared homosexuality to bestiality. A great many religious groups equate it with promiscuity.

Most parents do not hold such extreme views, but do view sexual choice as a defect in their child, or a defect in themselves. One of the most common issues brought up in counseling is that parents feel guilty because they "failed" their son/daughter by allowing him to "become" gay.

We have come a long way since the days that a black person was considered a defective white person, or a woman was considered like a man, only less so. Someday we will get to the point where we consider a gay man as no more or less defective as anyone else. I hope we get there soon.

[rehmwa 2]

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I would never pass up a chance to educate someone who was sincerely eager and open to new information. I am certain this was not an example of that.

Others are reading, too. Steel's words speak for themselves. Calling it out in a petty manner doesn't make your position stronger. And even then, what if those statements are truly the best he can manage from an honest effort.

Seems that belittling someone with a differing opinion instead of discussing it is just self congratulation and hurts a cause rather than helps it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[narcimund 0]

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... and hurts a cause rather than helps it.

The cause is not being won (or lost) on dropzone.com. i don't post here to win (or lose) converts.

But that being said, letting harsh, hateful words stand without an appropriate rebuttal risks a new lurker reading them and thinking the opinion of the community is represented.

That's minor I suppose, but still worth guarding against.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Johnnysgirly 0]

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However, they did not dance together, hold hands, make out or do anything that would make the rest of us naucious.

Wow....to me thats the DEFINITION of anti-gay. This type of narrow minded behavior makes me naucious . Its really sad that people are that homophobic. Its beyond me really.....

Alyssa

[Steel 0]

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However, they did not dance together, hold hands, make out or do anything that would make the rest of us naucious.

Wow....to me thats the DEFINITION of anti-gay. This type of narrow minded behavior makes me naucious . Its really sad that people are that homophobic. Its beyond me really.....

Alyssa

I actually thought about this and remember when my ex-wife was my ex girlfriend that one time I went to my parents house for Christmas and they didn't let us sleep in the same room. My parents knew I was fornicating it but would not condone it. I never resented my parents for that. 6 years later with my current girlfreind I stayed for a week at my parents house and this time they didn't even question it, they just gave us a room. Did their opinion really change? No but their acceptance level did. In any case just because somebody doesn't approve of your lifestyle doesn't mean you have to shut them out.
I do believe gay life is self destructive and disgusting but I don't really care its not my problem when I am not around any action.
If that means you want to call me anti gay then so be it.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Lindsey 0]

A girl I knew in college said this once:

"I like black people. I think they're nice."

She was absolutely clueless about what was wrong with that statement. Everyone else could've talked until we were blue in the face trying to explain it to her, but in her mind it was not a racist comment.

This thread reminds me of that.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[RhondaLea 4]

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effeminate male children

I haven't been keeping up, but a quick scan has revealed several instances of the above.

I know a lot of gay men who are not at all feminine. They are quite wholly male except that they choose male sex partners. I've never seen any research that indicates that gays generally have less testosterone as adults than their straight counterparts.

So I'm not sure that the use of feminine and masculine are appropriate in this context.

Something very complex is at work in all this, because as men age and their testosterone levels decrease, they do become more like women (in some ways), just as aging women experience an increase in testosterone and become more like men. But I haven't noticed that sexual "preferences" change as a result.

I think we need to be very careful how we characterize our biology. "Masculine" and "feminine" just don't seem to work in this discussion.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Steel 0]

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A girl I knew in college said this once:

"I like black people. I think they're nice."

She was absolutely clueless about what was wrong with that statement. Everyone else could've talked until we were blue in the face trying to explain it to her, but in her mind it was not a racist comment.

This thread reminds me of that.

linz

the only thing stupider than that statement is you or anybody trying to attack her for it. Its obviously a harmless generalization. I guess if somebody said that black people tended to have better rythm that too would be racist. Obviously it the truth but in your cute liberal fantasy land everybody is the same.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Lindsey 0]

Obviously it the truth but in your cute liberal fantasy land everybody is the same.

lol...that's funny. In my cute little world, people aren't the same at all, and I like the fact that we're not. I accept the differences between people. I would rather see gay people holding hands and even kissing in public than to pretend that they're not worthy of a loving relationship because they don't fit my fantasy of what a loving couple should be....

I'm not nauseated by people who are different from me. I think the comment you made about my cute liberal fantasy world of everyone being the same is nothing but a projection of what you WISH. It's your fantasy....not mine.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Johnnysgirly 0]

the only thing stupider than that statement is you or anybody trying to attack her for it***

.....No the only thing MORE () stupid is when someone doesn't see this as a racist statement. Why did she say she likes black people....why not just say I like people?

Alyssa

p.s. Oh does that mean I live in a liberal fantasy world also?? Wow....wouldn't that be nice

[Steel 0]

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the only thing stupider than that statement is you or anybody trying to attack her for it***

.....No the only thing MORE () stupid is when someone doesn't see this as a racist statement. Why did she say she likes black people....why not just say I like people?

Alyssa

p.s. Oh does that mean I live in a liberal fantasy world also?? Wow....wouldn't that be nice

sorry I don't have as much free time today to refute stupid statements like that. So if it will make you feel better, I can say you win

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Johnnysgirly 0]

Too bad....I have all day to argue with rednecks
I (people) only win when some people stop being so ingnorant. When people don't say things like "it makes me sick to look at a gay couple kissing" or even dancing .

Alyssa

[Steel 0]

One last comment for this thread. When thinking about that which is really stupid, lets not forget about your avatar.
As a concealed handgun license holder, I take offense to the stupidity in your avatar.
I would not even draw my gun in the same room with my dogs for fear that they might jump toward it. Your avatar making a joke out pointing a gun at a cat displays extreme stupidity and poor taste.
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If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.