I didn't join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy

[Kinaa 0]

http://tinyurl.com/lg748

As a trooper in the Special Air Service's counter-terrorist team - the black-clad force that came to the world's attention during the Iranian Embassy siege in 1980 - Ben Griffin was at the pinnacle of his military career.He had already served in Northern Ireland, Macedonia and Afghanistan as a member of the Parachute Regiment, and his sharp mind, natural fitness and ability to cope with the stress of military operations had singled him out as ideal special forces material.

Born in London but brought up in Wales, Mr Griffin left school at 18 with two A-levels and six GCSEs and, although he could have become an officer, he preferred life in the ranks.

Within a year of joining the elite force in early 2004 and serving as a trooper in the SAS's G-Squadron, he learnt that his unit was being posted to Baghdad, where it would be working alongside its American equivalent, Delta Force, targeting al-Qaeda cells and insurgent units.

Unknown to any of his SAS colleagues at their Hereford-based unit, however, Mr Griffin, then 25, had been harbouring doubts over the "legality" of the war. Despite recognising that Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator and posed a threat, albeit a small one, to the West, he did not believe that the case for war had been made. The events he witnessed during his three-month tour in Baghdad, and especially the conduct of the American troops, would force him into making the most difficult decision of his life.

During a week's leave in March 2005 he told his commanding officer in a formal interview that he had no intention of returning to Iraq because he believed that the war was morally wrong. Moreover, he said he believed that Tony Blair and the Government had lied to the country and had deceived every British serviceman and woman serving in Iraq.

Mr Griffin expected to be placed under arrest, labelled a coward, court-martialed and imprisoned for daring to air such views.

Instead, however, he was allowed to leave the Army with his exemplary military record intact and with a glowing testimonial from his commanding officer, who described him as a "balanced and honest soldier who possesses the strength and character to genuinely have the courage of his convictions".

In his first interview since being discharged from the SAS in June last year, Mr Griffin explained why he has decided to speak out about the war.

He said: "I saw a lot of things in Baghdad that were illegal or just wrong. I knew, so others must have known, that this was not the way to conduct operations if you wanted to win the hearts and minds of the local population. And if you don't win the hearts and minds of the people, you can't win the war.

"If we were on a joint counter-terrorist operation, for example, we would radio back to our headquarters that we were not going to detain certain people because, as far as we were concerned, they were not a threat because they were old men or obviously farmers, but the Americans would say 'no, bring them back'.

"The Americans had this catch-all approach to lifting suspects. The tactics were draconian and completely ineffective. The Americans were doing things like chucking farmers into Abu Ghraib [the notorious prison in Baghdad where US troops abused and tortured Iraqi detainees] or handing them over to the Iraqi authorities, knowing full well they were going to be tortured.

"The Americans had a well-deserved reputation for being trigger happy. In the three months that I was in Iraq, the soldiers I served with never shot anybody. When you asked the Americans why they killed people, they would say 'we were up against the tough foreign fighters'. I didn't see any foreign fighters in the time I was over there.

"I can remember coming in off one operation which took place outside Baghdad, where we had detained some civilians who were clearly not insurgents, they were innocent people. I couldn't understand why we had done this, so I said to my troop commander 'would we have behaved in the same way in the Balkans or Northern Ireland?' He shrugged his shoulders and said 'this is Iraq', and I thought 'and that makes it all right?'

"As far as I was concerned that meant that because these people were a different colour or a different religion, they didn't count as much. You can not invade a country pretending to promote democracy and behave like that."

On another operation, Mr Griffin recalls his and other soldiers' frustration at being ordered to detain a group of men living on a farm.

He said: "After you have been on a few operations, experience tells you when you are dealing with insurgents or just civilians and we knew the people we had detained were not a threat.

"One of them was a disabled man who had a leg missing but the Americans still ordered us to load them on the helicopters and bring them back to their base. A few hours later we were told to return half of them and fly back to the farm in daylight. It was a ridiculous order and we ran the risk of being shot down or ambushed, but we still had to do it. The Americans were risking our lives because they refused to listen to our advice the night before. It was typical of their behaviour."

Mr Griffin said he believed that the Americans soldiers viewed the Iraqis in the same way as the Nazis viewed Russians, Jews and eastern Europeans in the Second World War, when they labelled them "untermenschen".

"As far as the Americans were concerned, the Iraqi people were sub-human, untermenschen. You could almost split the Americans into two groups: ones who were complete crusaders, intent on killing Iraqis, and the others who were in Iraq because the Army was going to pay their college fees. They had no understanding or interest in the Arab culture. The Americans would talk to the Iraqis as if they were stupid and these weren't isolated cases, this was from the top down. There might be one or two enlightened officers who understood the situation a bit better but on the whole that was their general attitude. Their attitude fuelled the insurgency. I think the Iraqis detested them."

Although Mr Griffin has the utmost respect for his former colleagues and remains fiercely loyal to the regiment, he believes that the reputation of the Army has been damaged by its association with the American forces.

"I had reservations about going out to Iraq before I went, but as a soldier you just get on with what you are ordered to do. But I found that when I was out in Iraq that I couldn't keep my views separate from my work without compromising my role as a soldier.

"It was at that stage that I knew I couldn't carry on. I was very angry, and still am, at the way the politicians in this country and America have lied to the British public about the war. But most importantly, I didn't join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy."

Mr Griffin said that although he was angered by many of the events he witnessed in Iraq, he waited until he returned to Britain on leave before making his views clear to his commanders.

"I didn't want to say anything when I was in Baghdad because I still have great respect and loyalty for the soldiers I served with. I didn't want to cause any unnecessary pressure or discomfort by voicing my opinions.

"When I returned to the UK for a week's leave I asked for an interview with my commanding officer and told him that what I thought was going on in Iraq was wrong, not just legally but operationally as well.

"Initially, he suspected that I had been offered a job by a private military company in Iraq but when it became clear that was not the case he was very understanding. It was a big decision for me. I put a lot of effort getting into the SAS, so this wasn't a decision I made on a whim.

"He understood my point of view and his attitude was brilliant, in fact everyone was brilliant about it. I didn't know what was going to happen. I thought I might be charged or end up in Colchester [the military prison] for refusing to soldier."

Mr Griffin, who lives in London, denies being a peace activist or a member of any political party, or having an agenda designed to bring down the Government.

But he said: "I do believe passionately in democracy and I will speak out about things which I think are morally wrong. I think the war in Iraq is a war of aggression and is morally wrong and, more importantly, we are making the situation in the Middle East more unstable. It's not just wrong, it's a major military disaster. There was no plan for what was to happen after Saddam went, no end-game."

• Mr Griffin did not ask for or receive any payment for this interview.

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Sorry if it is repost.

Outstanding soldier Benn Griffin is.
And cool reacton from his co's.

[mnealtx 0]

Good riddance and all that... don't the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya, Ben...

I especially like the "untermenschen" comment... looks like the author shot himself down before he started! (Godwin's Law)

Maybe someone should remind the author of where the term "Jerries", "wogs" et cetera.....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[warpedskydiver 0]

Anyone want to make a bet that he gets an immediate job as a consultant for huge money...hmmm?

I don't think he shouldn't be allowed to make that kind of money now.

I do wonder what would have motivated him in this circumstance.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

so basically you don't believe anything this guy is saying?

[tcnelson 1]

neato...he could tell that people weren't insurgents just by looking at them! he must be superman or wonderwoman or something like that. so far, i think the entire story is fiction.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[Andy9o8 2]

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Anyone want to make a bet that he gets an immediate job as a consultant for huge money...hmmm?

I don't think he shouldn't be allowed to make that kind of money now.

I do wonder what would have motivated him in this circumstance.

How about simply the courage of his own convictions? It's noteworthy that his discharge was in June 2005, and this story was posted on March 12, 2006. No real fast turnaround time.

Just because a lot of you guys strongly disagree with him, doesn't make him a liar or a scoundrel. Instead of attacking his character, debate his position.

[masterblaster72 0]

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Just because a lot of you guys strongly disagree with him, doesn't make him a liar or a scoundrel.Instead of attacking his character, debate his position.

You're asking way too much of these guys. Dream on pal.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Instead of attacking his character, debate his position.

HA!

And that is why I mostly lurk these days.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[narcimund 0]

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Instead of attacking his character, debate his position.

It's worse than that. Nobody's attacked his actual character; they've attacked SPECULATIONS about his character.

Next thing you know they'll hypothesize that he beats his wife and keeps an unkept lawn.

This is lower than they usually stoop. They're really scraping bottom this time.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[kelpdiver 2]

nothing outrageous in his statements, though I think he sugarcoats the British history in dealing with insurgencies. Hardly the stuff of saints.

[Trent 0]

You guys act like a bunch of old women who just heard someone say a dirty word for the first time. Not that the first few posts to voice opinions against the article were the most brilliant posts ever, but they did not attack the dude's character. Read them again, then take a few breaths. The closest that you could even come to thinking you heard a character attack on the British guy was that someone was amazed he could tell insurgents just by looking at them and said he must be superman or wonderwoman.

Talk about a bunch of people who are just LOOKING for a reason to be upset... damn.

Oh, if you want to argue back and forth about this... go read the thread again. It's all there. If you don't see it this time. I have nothing to say to you.

Oh, hello again!

[outrager 6]

Yo !

It's good to know that not everybody in uniform is a brainwashed wingnut. At least some can think for themselves.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[shropshire 0]

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Last night Patrick Mercer, the shadow minister for homeland security, said: "Trooper Griffin is a highly experienced soldier. This makes his decision particularly disturbing and his views and opinions must be listened to by the Government."

The MoD declined to comment.

clicky



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(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Richards 0]

Wow. He must have had an incredible reason to turn away from a career like the one he had. I have never been in a war so I will abstain from playing armchair quarterback on this guy, but I will say that his position, particularly coming from that regiment is an eyeopener.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[masterblaster72 0]

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Not that the first few posts to voice opinions against the article were the most brilliant posts ever, but they did not attack the dude's character

Ok, since no one else will bite, I will.

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Read them again

I did. Did you see what Mr. Nelson said?

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i think the entire story is fiction

Tantamount to calling the fella a liar, no? If you don't think so, then don't be offended if I reply to your posts and call every 'fact' you present "fiction."

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Oh, if you want to argue back and forth about this...

I don't want to argue back and forth about this; that would be a colossal waste of time and energy. I just think you're the one who is "LOOKING for a reason to be upset" and needs to re-read the thread.


Now back on topic -- if what this Mr. Griffin says is in fact true -- and it *is* established that he has an exemplary military record -- I would think some folks in our military need to take a less xenophobic approach to their duty in Iraq. Unfortunately, the problem can't be remedied unless it's corrected in the higher ranks.

[kallend 2,026]

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neato...he could tell that people weren't insurgents just by looking at them! he must be superman or wonderwoman or something like that. so far, i think the entire story is fiction.

But it's OK for George W. Bush, well known defender of Alabama during the Vietnam War, to have someone declared a terrorist with no hearing, and thrown into Gitmo indefinitely without recourse to any legal help. So George W. Bush is Wonderwoman too?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shropshire 0]

<< Unfortunately, the problem can't be remedied unless it's corrected in the higher ranks. >> Which is, I think, one of the things that Col. Larry Wilkerson was talking about in a recent interview that was posted here the other day..


To the other people who have been banging on about the accuracey or lack of it, of the interview with Ben Griffin.... slow down, stop jumping to conclusions. If this guy happens to be for real, and he's been there whilst you have not then YOU will need to adjust your views of this mess in Iraq..... but let's wait for authentication first, hey?

.
.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[GTAVercetti 0]

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<< Unfortunately, the problem can't be remedied unless it's corrected in the higher ranks. >> Which is, I think, one of the things that Col. Larry Wilkerson was talking about in a recent interview that was posted here the other day..


To the other people who have been banging on about the accuracey or lack of it, of the interview with Ben Griffin.... slow down, stop jumping to conclusions. If this guy happens to be for real, and he's been there whilst you have not then YOU will need to adjust your views of this mess in Iraq..... but let's wait for authentication first, hey?

.
.

Restraint and careful examination is for pussies and commies. And gays.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Andy9o8 2]

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To the other people who have been banging on about the accuracey or lack of it, of the interview with Ben Griffin.... slow down, stop jumping to conclusions. If this guy happens to be for real, and he's been there whilst you have not then YOU will need to adjust your views of this mess in Iraq..... but let's wait for authentication first, hey?

What amuses me is these guys who are so ready to call someone who served over there a liar because he opposes the war are the first ones to say that the “leftie” media distorts the truth on the ground in Iraq, and if you were over there, you’d understand what was going on there. Well, this guy was there. But of course, since he criticizes what the US is doing, he must be a liar, or maybe he’s doing it for the money.
Neat little double standard.

[shropshire 0]

sure is sweetie.. meeeoww ... Let's Then raise the scarlet standard high.......

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rhys 0]

This all sounds very believable and typical of the american attitude to other cultures. The u.s. had slaves only a couple of decades ago. this guy is/was in the special sevices and although he was not superhuman he probably had ample training in detecting insurgents through observation. how does an old farmer with one leg pose a threat to the u.s. military? you too could probably detect authentic FEAR in sombodys/everybodys eyes at a glance. Life would not exactly be easy there just now. i know it wouldn't have been great under saddam. but the u.s. would have caused much more suffering than he did. returning suspeted insurgents by helecopter by daylight during war, is FUCKING STUPID. just like GWB, FUCKING STUPID.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Trent 0]

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The u.s. had slaves only a couple of decades ago.

This and your other post about the US being 400 years old is starting to make me a little curious... how long does a year last where you're from??

For Masterblaster....

... My bad, ONE poster states that he thinks it's fiction and all of a sudden EVERY poster who isn't a DZ.COM lefty is committing character assassination on this ex-SAS dude? Really? REALLY? Wow... awesome. You're right, I was just looking for a reason to get angry... entirely unlike the reactions to those who disagreed with the article posted.

Oh, hello again!

[kelpdiver 2]

I could accept the 400 year line - colonial period is part of our history, even if it predates the revolution.

but the couple decades, yeah, kind of kills any credibility for the rest of the verbiage.

[kallend 2,026]

There's a fundamental error in the title. The current US administration has no clear and consistent foreign policy, It's all made up on the spot, ad hoc, to suit Bush's political ends.

9/11 was a godsend to Bush. Without it he would have been a one-term president.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,026]

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Good riddance and all that... don't the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya, Ben...

I especially like the "untermenschen" comment... looks like the author shot himself down before he started! (Godwin's Law)

Maybe someone should remind the author of where the term "Jerries", "wogs" et cetera.....

Should all keep in mind that the Telegraph is a staunchly right wing conservative publication. It's not like this is coming out of Newsmax or FOX.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.