I didn't join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy

[shropshire 0]

He's (Ben) on BBC 2 News Night at the moment......

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[stoneycase 0]

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Good riddance and all that... don't the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya, Ben...

I especially like the "untermenschen" comment... looks like the author shot himself down before he started! (Godwin's Law)

Maybe someone should remind the author of where the term "Jerries", "wogs" et cetera.....

jesus...

you'd think that a talented soldier leaving the SAS as a result of the iraqi war would at least be worth a, "well, to each their own" or whatever, but no, you get a "get the f*** out, and do it fast" type comment.

nice.

yeah, because, the military is just having a grand ol' time recruiting at the moment (yes yes, this is the SAS not the US Army...I understand...) they shouldn't worry one bit about stuff like this, no sir...

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[Amazon 7]

Wow the chickenhawks are out in force in this thread....

[rhys 0]

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------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote
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The u.s. had slaves only a couple of decades ago.
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This and your other post about the US being 400 years old is starting to make me a little curious... how long does a year last where you're from??

O.k. a FEW decades ago(there was still slavery in the south in the 60's wasn'y there? there was definately different busses and toilets for coulourd people), i was marely trying to point out that in general the U.S. has a redneck, closed minded, uninformed and naive opinion on any race that doesn't have white skin. therefore it is to be expected that the "ragheads" get treated so poorly.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,990]

>O.k. a FEW decades ago(there was still slavery in the south in
>the 60's wasn'y there?

Ah, I see the problem. Yes, but that was the 1860's, not the 1960's. Right decade, wrong century.

[kelpdiver 2]

and it's so very different for the Maori? Or the immigrant Chinese in New Zealand?

[Channman 2]

> on this ex-SAS dude

I personally think it makes for good fiction. When does his book and movie come out...im saving my pennies.

[rhys 0]

Tena koe,

the maori are mostly well respected here in new zealand, the first word on the evening news is a greeting in maori. all children learn maori in school and we have never had slavery. in fact we set the pesedent of the womans vote. we are all treated equally here.

and the chinese settlers were in the early to mid 1800's? the offspring of these people are now, simply new zealanders. they were some of the first non maori people to come to the country. for the gold rush

Haere ra

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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Ah, I see the problem. Yes, but that was the 1860's, not the 1960's. Right decade, wrong century.

oops my mistake, I guess i'm the naive one now. I got confused with the separate toilets for colourd people and No colourds allowed attitude which was still very rife in the 1960's I saw a documentary on it. It was quite disturbing indeed

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Guest 1010]

>There's a fundamental error in the title. The current US administration has no clear and consistent foreign policy, It's all made up on the spot, ad hoc, to suit Bush's political ends.

Actually its been a very clear policy. If you or your country presents a threat to this country we may do something about it. We have done as much recently. You would rather have Clinton's retreat from a dock in Haiti? Or retreat from Somalia? Or his gifts of missile technology to China?

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

the maori are mostly well respected here in new zealand, the first word on the evening news is a greeting in maori. all children learn maori in school and we have never had slavery. in fact we set the pesedent of the womans vote. we are all treated equally here.

Do they believe this as well? It's obvious from seconds of looking that they're the equlievent to the American Indians - poor off economically and in terms of opportunity.

--
You might want to look up the word slavery for a definition. It doesn't mean what you think it does (discrimination, or 'separate but equal.')

[mnealtx 0]

No, what you have is someone that's been in the military for... what, 2-3 years, gets sent to a combat zone and then suddenly has the epiphany that he's a conscientous objector?

Sorry, I stand by original statement - if he can't hack the duty, he needs to get out of the military. Looks like he did - good for him and good for the military.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Stumpy 284]

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No, what you have is someone that's been in the military for... what, 2-3 years, gets sent to a combat zone and then suddenly has the epiphany that he's a conscientous objector?

Um, no. He has been in one of the best special forces units in the world for 2-3 years, matched only by maybe one other and most likely seen more live combat zones in that time than most other soldiers do in their entire career. He will have been in the military for longer, the article doesn't seem to state how much longer though.

I think that would make him more than qualified to comment.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[sfc 1]

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No, what you have is someone that's been in the military for... what, 2-3 years,

8 years in fact, but I'm sure you'll find some other way to discredit him.

Quote

gets sent to a combat zone and then suddenly has the epiphany that he's a conscientous objector?

He had also served in afganistan, northern ireland and other hot spots around the world, so this is not his first combat zone.

He is a seasoned soldier.

Prepared to debate the issues he raised rather than attack the man's character now?

I think that you are the one afraid to face the reality of the situation in iraq, he is the one that had the balls to stand up and say what he really saw.

[mnealtx 0]

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Quote

No, what you have is someone that's been in the military for... what, 2-3 years, gets sent to a combat zone and then suddenly has the epiphany that he's a conscientous objector?

Um, no. He has been in one of the best special forces units in the world for 2-3 years, matched only by maybe one other and most likely seen more live combat zones in that time than most other soldiers do in their entire career. He will have been in the military for longer, the article doesn't seem to state how much longer though.

I think that would make him more than qualified to comment.

Come again??

From the original post....

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Within a year of joining the elite force...

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In our three months in Iraq...

Joined the SAS unit in early 04, spent 3 months in Iraq and left in March 05.

He couldn't hack combat - no shame in that. Better for him and the military both for him to have gotten out.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Stumpy 284]

Quote

He had already served in Northern Ireland, Macedonia and Afghanistan as a member of the Parachute Regiment, and his sharp mind, natural fitness and ability to cope with the stress of military operations had singled him out as ideal special forces material.

Plus he had already been in the SAS a year, most likely doing some fairly nasty stuff like i said. You don't just join the SAS - you have to be at the top of the game in the regular forces, and the Paras are one of the most reknowned units within the british army. This guy had no problems with being in a combat zone.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Kinaa 0]

And now this:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1174649,00.html

Collateral Damage or Civilian Massacre in Haditha?
Last November, U.S. Marines killed 15 Iraqi civilians in their homes. Was it self-defense, an accident or cold-blooded revenge? A Time exclusive
By TIM MCGIRK / BAGHDAD

Posted Sunday, Mar. 19, 2006
The incident seemed like so many others from this war, the kind of tragedy that has become numbingly routine amid the daily reports of violence in Iraq. On the morning of Nov. 19, 2005, a roadside bomb struck a humvee carrying Marines from Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, on a road near Haditha, a restive town in western Iraq. The bomb killed Lance Corporal Miguel (T.J.) Terrazas, 20, from El Paso, Texas. The next day a Marine communique from Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi reported that Terrazas and 15 Iraqi civilians were killed by the blast and that "gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire," prompting the Marines to return fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding one other. The Marines from Kilo Company held a memorial service for Terrazas at their camp in Haditha. They wrote messages like "T.J., you were a great friend. I'm going to miss seeing you around" on smooth stones and piled them in a funeral mound. And the war moved on.

But the details of what happened that morning in Haditha are more disturbing, disputed and horrific than the military initially reported. According to eyewitnesses and local officials interviewed over the past 10 weeks, the civilians who died in Haditha on Nov. 19 were killed not by a roadside bomb but by the Marines themselves, who went on a rampage in the village after the attack, killing 15 unarmed Iraqis in their homes, including seven women and three children. Human-rights activists say that if the accusations are true, the incident ranks as the worst case of deliberate killing of Iraqi civilians by U.S. service members since the war began.

In January, after Time presented military officials in Baghdad with the Iraqis' accounts of the Marines' actions, the U.S. opened its own investigation, interviewing 28 people, including the Marines, the families of the victims and local doctors. According to military officials, the inquiry acknowledged that, contrary to the military's initial report, the 15 civilians killed on Nov. 19 died at the hands of the Marines, not the insurgents. The military announced last week that the matter has been handed over to the Naval Criminal Investigative Service (ncis), which will conduct a criminal investigation to determine whether the troops broke the laws of war by deliberately targeting civilians. Lieut. Colonel Michelle Martin-Hing, spokeswoman for the Multi-National Force-Iraq, told Time the involvement of the ncis does not mean that a crime occurred. And she says the fault for the civilian deaths lies squarely with the insurgents, who "placed noncombatants in the line of fire as the Marines responded to defend themselves."

Because the incident is officially under investigation, members of the Marine unit that was in Haditha on Nov. 19 are not allowed to speak with reporters. But the military's own reconstruction of events and the accounts of town residents interviewed by Time—including six whose family members were killed that day—paint a picture of a devastatingly violent response by a group of U.S. troops who had lost one of their own to a deadly insurgent attack and believed they were under fire. Time obtained a videotape that purports to show the aftermath of the Marines' assault and provides graphic documentation of its human toll. What happened in Haditha is a reminder of the horrors faced by civilians caught in the middle of war—and what war can do to the people who fight it....

(4 pages of article are on link, I posted just first it is too long to post it here, so for the end of story visiti the link)

---------------------------------------------------

I think that US forces has to rethink their military doctrine if they wan't to win the war.
That is not the way to "win hearts and minds of Iraqis". There is just too many wrong things that are happening there.

[unformed 0]

Quote

And now this:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1174649,00.html

Collateral Damage or Civilian Massacre in Haditha?
Last November, U.S. Marines killed 15 Iraqi civilians in their homes. Was it self-defense, an accident or cold-blooded revenge? A Time exclusive
By TIM MCGIRK / BAGHDAD

Posted Sunday, Mar. 19, 2006
The incident seemed like so many others from this war, the kind of tragedy that has become numbingly routine amid the daily reports of violence in Iraq. On the morning of Nov. 19, 2005, a roadside bomb struck a humvee carrying Marines from Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, on a road near Haditha, a restive town in western Iraq. The bomb killed Lance Corporal Miguel (T.J.) Terrazas, 20, from El Paso, Texas. The next day a Marine communique from Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi reported that Terrazas and 15 Iraqi civilians were killed by the blast and that "gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire," prompting the Marines to return fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding one other. The Marines from Kilo Company held a memorial service for Terrazas at their camp in Haditha. They wrote messages like "T.J., you were a great friend. I'm going to miss seeing you around" on smooth stones and piled them in a funeral mound. And the war moved on.

But the details of what happened that morning in Haditha are more disturbing, disputed and horrific than the military initially reported. According to eyewitnesses and local officials interviewed over the past 10 weeks, the civilians who died in Haditha on Nov. 19 were killed not by a roadside bomb but by the Marines themselves, who went on a rampage in the village after the attack, killing 15 unarmed Iraqis in their homes, including seven women and three children. Human-rights activists say that if the accusations are true, the incident ranks as the worst case of deliberate killing of Iraqi civilians by U.S. service members since the war began.

In January, after Time presented military officials in Baghdad with the Iraqis' accounts of the Marines' actions, the U.S. opened its own investigation, interviewing 28 people, including the Marines, the families of the victims and local doctors. According to military officials, the inquiry acknowledged that, contrary to the military's initial report, the 15 civilians killed on Nov. 19 died at the hands of the Marines, not the insurgents. The military announced last week that the matter has been handed over to the Naval Criminal Investigative Service (ncis), which will conduct a criminal investigation to determine whether the troops broke the laws of war by deliberately targeting civilians. Lieut. Colonel Michelle Martin-Hing, spokeswoman for the Multi-National Force-Iraq, told Time the involvement of the ncis does not mean that a crime occurred. And she says the fault for the civilian deaths lies squarely with the insurgents, who "placed noncombatants in the line of fire as the Marines responded to defend themselves."

Because the incident is officially under investigation, members of the Marine unit that was in Haditha on Nov. 19 are not allowed to speak with reporters. But the military's own reconstruction of events and the accounts of town residents interviewed by Time—including six whose family members were killed that day—paint a picture of a devastatingly violent response by a group of U.S. troops who had lost one of their own to a deadly insurgent attack and believed they were under fire. Time obtained a videotape that purports to show the aftermath of the Marines' assault and provides graphic documentation of its human toll. What happened in Haditha is a reminder of the horrors faced by civilians caught in the middle of war—and what war can do to the people who fight it....

(4 pages of article are on link, I posted just first it is too long to post it here, so for the end of story visiti the link)

---------------------------------------------------

I think that US forces has to rethink their military doctrine if they wan't to win the war.
That is not the way to "win hearts and minds of Iraqis". There is just too many wrong things that are happening there.

That's total BS. It's the liberal media making up stories to further their agenda. Our military would never do something like that. There's got to be another side to the story.

This ad space for sale.

[wmw999 2,440]

It's information. Add it to the banks, test your theories about how the world works including this information.

If they don't work as well, consider the information, and consider the validity of your theories about how the world works.

Saying "it's a lie" or "his mother dresses him funny" doesn't really change what he has to say. On the other hand, knowing that a large number of Americans, and American soldiers are not like that from personal experience -- that would maybe make this a specific incident. So add it to the banks.

Just because all of the Americans (3) you know are assholes doesn't make all Americans assholes. And just because all of the Americans you know are nice (or the majority are), doesn't mean that none are assholes, or that Americans as a rule only have good traits.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[unformed 0]

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Quote

He had already served in Northern Ireland, Macedonia and Afghanistan as a member of the Parachute Regiment, and his sharp mind, natural fitness and ability to cope with the stress of military operations had singled him out as ideal special forces material.

Plus he had already been in the SAS a year, most likely doing some fairly nasty stuff like i said. You don't just join the SAS - you have to be at the top of the game in the regular forces, and the Paras are one of the most reknowned units within the british army. This guy had no problems with being in a combat zone.

There's no way a man would go through so much effort to join an elite organization and then just back out because of principles. He probably got too scared when he was out in combat. He couldn't cut it, and needed a reason so he wouldn't be called a coward and traitor when he returned, so he made up this thing about Americans. There is no way that what he said about our military could be true. We have the greatest, most honorable military in the world, and we're over there helping the Iraqis get their freedom. It's people like this who are too pansy to do anything that are causing problems.

Good riddance.

This ad space for sale.

[Kinaa 0]

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There's no way a man would go through so much effort to join an elite organization and then just back out because of principles.

You are judging by yourself?

What that mean? That you would stay in a "elite" organization, no matter what that organization is doing? Even something illegal?
If any "elite" organization is doing something morally wrong or illegal, could that organization be called a "elite" one?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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We have the greatest, most honorable military in the world, and we're over there helping the Iraqis get their freedom.

I think you may need to put on a different pair of glasses from time to time. Your rose coloured ones are a bit blinding.

[MrBounce 0]

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There is no way that what he said about our military could be true. We have the greatest, most honorable military in the world, and we're over there helping the Iraqis get their freedom.

Ah....sarcasm!

Gavin

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. If you don't take it out and use it, its going to rust.

[tcnelson 1]

Quote

Wow the chickenhawks are out in force in this thread....

...sayeth the headless chicken.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[Stumpy 284]

Thats funny.

He says something you don't want to agree with, so is therefore, scared, a coward, a pansy and a traitor?! Pull the other one its got bells on.

Quote

There is no way that what he said about our military could be true. We have the greatest, most honorable military in the world, and we're over there helping the Iraqis get their freedom.

Ah, blind faith, how nice.

Never try to eat more than you can lift