I didn't join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy

[mikkey 0]

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I've heard similar comments from British Soldiers of various ranks since Iraq began and before. He's just saying in public whats said in private. Good luck to him.

I had an interesting conversation a couple of years ago with an Australian officer who had served in Iraq. He had quite similar concerns about the tactics and the approach used by the US military.

He thought the main issue was a lack of understanding of foreign culture and a certain superiority feeling. Firstly not treating the locals as "equally worthy humans" - (a little like in Nam). Secondly the attitude that the "American way" is the only way - i.e. not understanding that you can not always take the same approach to issues as you would do back "home".

I think that some of the posts in this thread reflect this. How dare somebody criticize the US (military). The US is always right, anything American is always the best.

Only if Americans from top to bottom start learning to look at the world with less "black and white" attitude and also learn to listen to criticism - they will repeat mistakes like Iraq again and again (and with mistakes I mean not so much the invasion itself, but more the planning and post conflict issues).

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[billvon 2,990]

>I had an interesting conversation a couple of years ago with an Australian
>officer who had served in Iraq. He had quite similar concerns about the
>tactics and the approach used by the US military.

Yep. About a year and a half ago I talked to someone from Australia who was coming back through the US, and he had a similar experience. Even over there he was getting pep talks about how much the situation was improving - but twice during his tour of duty, mortars landed within a few hundred feet of him.

[mnealtx 0]

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He thought the main issue was a lack of understanding of foreign culture and a certain superiority feeling. Firstly not treating the locals as "equally worthy humans" - (a little like in Nam). Secondly the attitude that the "American way" is the only way - i.e. not understanding that you can not always take the same approach to issues as you would do back "home".

I think that some of the posts in this thread reflect this. How dare somebody criticize the US (military). The US is always right, anything American is always the best.

Only if Americans from top to bottom start learning to look at the world with less "black and white" attitude and also learn to listen to criticism - they will repeat mistakes like Iraq again and again (and with mistakes I mean not so much the invasion itself, but more the planning and post conflict issues).

You know, I was going to reply to the last couple posts, but never mind - y'all are right and we Americans are wrong.

Our troops are over there killing people randomly in the street and throwing grenades into schoolrooms. The valiant British soldiers are resigning in droves over all the wrongs that the Americans are doing.

There... isn't that all better, now??

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[shropshire 0]

<> - Jeez lightenup ... NO ONE said that... but there you going proving the Black & WHite thing....

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[mnealtx 0]

Yeah? I got railed by the British contingent for saying that the soldier was better off being out of the military if he couldn't do the job... the same British contingent that jumps into every military thread about American soldiers and slams them.

Evidently it's black and white on BOTH sides of the ocean, my friend.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[shropshire 0]

Hi M,

Sure, there are people that do that here (it's SC afterall) - but Mikkey wasnt slamming ALL American soldiers, he was recounting a story (similar to Ben Griffins) that suggests that there is a grey area where things are not going so well Over There.... and we deny that at our collective peril.

PAX,

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[mnealtx 0]

Hi Tony -

I know several troops that have done rotations in either Afghanistan or Iraq, as well as several co-workers that are on contract over there. They've all told me that things aren't perfect, but they're also not as bad as the media makes it out to be. The Iraqi people in general aren't waiting around every corner to bash our guys over the head with a pipe or anything.

Things ARE getting better, slowly but surely. The place didn't turn into a shithole overnight, and it's not going to be solved overnight, either.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Stumpy 284]

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Yeah? I got railed by the British contingent for saying that the soldier was better off being out of the military if he couldn't do the job... the same British contingent that jumps into every military thread about American soldiers and slams them.

No mike, please don't misunderstand me, i have no problems with American/ British soldiers or whoever. My point here is that evidently this is an extremely capable soldier who CAN do the job, (reference what the SAS did yesterday with Delta Force) and maybe we should take his comments seriously rather than just keeping a rosy tinted view of things and blindly listening to our own propaganda. Others in this thread labled him instantly a pansy, coward, traitor etc. when he is plainly none of those things.

I fully support everyone out there who is doing a difficult job under difficult circumstances. Maybe they should not have been there in teh first place but thats a different discussion.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[mnealtx 0]

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Quote

Yeah? I got railed by the British contingent for saying that the soldier was better off being out of the military if he couldn't do the job... the same British contingent that jumps into every military thread about American soldiers and slams them.

No mike, please don't misunderstand me, i have no problems with American/ British soldiers or whoever. My point here is that evidently this is an extremely capable soldier who CAN do the job, (reference what the SAS did yesterday with Delta Force) and maybe we should take his comments seriously rather than just keeping a rosy tinted view of things and blindly listening to our own propaganda. Others in this thread labled him instantly a pansy, coward, traitor etc. when he is plainly none of those things.

I fully support everyone out there who is doing a difficult job under difficult circumstances. Maybe they should not have been there in teh first place but thats a different discussion.

I don't feel that he was a coward or anything else. I respect the fact that he served, and moreso that he was in an elite unit.

However...I still feel that if he can't do the job (for whatever reason he may have) then it's better for both him and the military if he's out.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mikkey 0]

Quote

Quote

He thought the main issue was a lack of understanding of foreign culture and a certain superiority feeling. Firstly not treating the locals as "equally worthy humans" - (a little like in Nam). Secondly the attitude that the "American way" is the only way - i.e. not understanding that you can not always take the same approach to issues as you would do back "home".

I think that some of the posts in this thread reflect this. How dare somebody criticize the US (military). The US is always right, anything American is always the best.

Only if Americans from top to bottom start learning to look at the world with less "black and white" attitude and also learn to listen to criticism - they will repeat mistakes like Iraq again and again (and with mistakes I mean not so much the invasion itself, but more the planning and post conflict issues).

You know, I was going to reply to the last couple posts, but never mind - y'all are right and we Americans are wrong.

Our troops are over there killing people randomly in the street and throwing grenades into schoolrooms. The valiant British soldiers are resigning in droves over all the wrongs that the Americans are doing.

There... isn't that all better, now??

There you go. You just made my point. Was anyone claiming what you just said? No.

What we are saying - and a few people from allied forces are saying - is that there are issues with the approach and the tactics. Now instead of taking the the criticism seriously and debate it - you (like your government) take the attitude "how dare you say we could do anything wrong" instead of actually trying to think if there might be some valid points here.

The issue is NOT the individual US soldier, it is the attitude, the tactics, and the strategy / planning of those in command (all the way from local commanders to the White House).

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mnealtx 0]

If you re-read the majority of the posts, that was exactly the response I got - "How dare you say anything about *our* soldiers!" when it's mostly the same posters that have things to say (usually derogatory) about American troops.

The other part is, it's *ALWAYS* the Americans that are wrong - I'm *NOT* saying that we're perfect by any means, but there's definitely a strong "Blame America first" sentiment by many.

So again... why is it okay to bash American troops, but not okay to say anything that might be taken as derogatory about anyone else's troops?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

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The other part is, it's *ALWAYS* the Americans that are wrong - I'm *NOT* saying that we're perfect by any means, but there's definitely a strong "Blame America first" sentiment by many.

You know, the funny thing here is, the group that says the only way to fix the problem is for "america to pull out, admit we rape and torture and eat up the world and need to apologize and pay off the rest of the world for every bad act in history" is usually other americans or immigrants to america recently indoctrinated.

Thus, a group of americans that also think the issue is 100% black and white.

Which really supports Mikkey's statements. We have a large proportion of citizens that are of the "all or nothing" mentality on both sides of the coin. I bet it's over 5 or 10% - which seems huge to me.

Or it's just more fun on SC to argue with that attitude.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,440]

I hate that black-and-white mentality . It's completely wrong, and people who do it suck

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[miked10270 0]

Just to stir the pot...

Lt. Col. Tim Collins (Royal Irish Regiment) tells an interesting anecdote about the preparations for the Iraq Invasion; How American senior officers were talking about "Bombing Iraqis back to The Stone Age!" And him thinking "I thought we were going in to liberate these people!"

He goes further: "... what is happening there is much more reminiscent of American policy than British colonial policy. Love it or hate it, British colonial policy is about acting in partnership with the people you come across for mutual benefit. American policy is all about subjugation."

Regardless of this, it's already been proven that The US Army, while lavishly equipped, is nothing spectacular in terms of discipline & attitude! Simply look at the Abu-Ghraib incidents: Either there's a complete lack of discipline that allows soldiers to think they can behave in such a way against Both The Geneva Convention and their own military law... OR... The US Military is corrupt & criminal from top to bottom!

Y'All choose.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[rehmwa 2]

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I hate that black-and-white mentality . It's completely wrong, and people who do it suck

Wendy W.

'

agreed, and anything they say is wrong, except the stuff I agree with. But then they are still wrong because they came to the right conclusions based on faulty logic.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,026]

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Yeah? I got railed by the British contingent for saying that the soldier was better off being out of the military if he couldn't do the job... the same British contingent that jumps into every military thread about American soldiers and slams them.

Evidently it's black and white on BOTH sides of the ocean, my friend.

If you re-read your posts, you will notice that you are 93.8% confirming what mikkey wrote.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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If you re-read your posts, you will notice that you are 100% confirming what mikkey wrote.

disagree, Mikkey origianlly noted that "Americans" are largely go/nogo attitudes - Neal pointed out it wasn't just an American thing as it occurs all over, he used his Brit contacts an a non-american example. But you can see that attitude from all over the world. (one might even suspect that it's human nature for any population to some proportion.....particularly with those that are impressed with how much schooling they have )

I pointed out that this attitude is everywhere, and not restricted to one political view either and that it takes a small proportion to make it seem prevalent. That's pretty visible even here on SC.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[unformed 0]

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Yeah? I got railed by the British contingent for saying that the soldier was better off being out of the military if he couldn't do the job... the same British contingent that jumps into every military thread about American soldiers and slams them.

Evidently it's black and white on BOTH sides of the ocean, my friend.

Don't mind them, man. They like to bash our military because they're just mad that we won. The rest of te world bashes us because they only wish they could be as badass as we are.

This ad space for sale.

[SSGJOHNSON 0]

Wow I am truly amazed at the insite of a bunch of people that havent been in the war zone at all. Lets look at this from outside the box........Seems to me everyone that is BITCHING about the U.S. Army really and truly doesnt have a clue........It really amazes me that even though your asses where saved during WWII you still want to put us down. Live the life for a while think about it If you have been to Iraq and didnt see an insurgent the whole time you where there you need to get out more and take the apron off and pick up a weapon. I say this whole story is Made up BS from someone that is just anouther route to influence others who dont know.....

Oh by the way I am one of those Army Soldiers and I do take this entire thread personally. You would be talking out the other side of your mouth if your county was attacked and thousands of innocent people where killed. You clowns would be the first to be at the White house asking for the same Americans that you so despise to come and bail you out again.

ENOUGH SAID

I know ill go to heaven because ive spent my time in Hell.

[kallend 2,026]

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Wow I am truly amazed at the insite of a bunch of people that havent been in the war zone at all. Lets look at this from outside the box........Seems to me everyone that is BITCHING about the U.S. Army really and truly doesnt have a clue........It really amazes me that even though your asses where saved during WWII you still want to put us down. Live the life for a while think about it If you have been to Iraq and didnt see an insurgent the whole time you where there you need to get out more and take the apron off and pick up a weapon. I say this whole story is Made up BS from someone that is just anouther route to influence others who dont know.....

Oh by the way I am one of those Army Soldiers and I do take this entire thread personally. You would be talking out the other side of your mouth if your county was attacked and thousands of innocent people where killed. You clowns would be the first to be at the White house asking for the same Americans that you so despise to come and bail you out again.

ENOUGH SAID

1. What about the 20,000 innocent Iraqi citizens killed in the 2003 invasion and its aftermath? I suppose they don't count in your calculus.

2. You should get your history of WWII from history books, not Hollywood movies.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SSGJOHNSON 0]

Yea your right.......My bad. Oh by the way just how much time do you have in uniform?

I know ill go to heaven because ive spent my time in Hell.

[Amazon 7]

Hmmm last time I checked.. his son is there in Iraq Right now...

Mine has been there as well

and I spent 8 years wearing the uniform....your point is??

I was very supportive of the administration when they went after the Taliban and AQ... too bad they had such attention deficit disorder and did not finish the job properly and BLUNDERED into Iraq... using the attacks as an excuse....or was it WMD... or was it they support AQ... oh thats right... It was personal.. that man tried to kill my Daddy.. GREAT.. we are back to the old days when Kings could go to war on a whim.

SOOO 2300 of our countrymen are dead... THOUSANDS more are now maimed for life from injuries in Iraq.

We have lost the support of MOST of the world.. the support that was at an all time high when we went to Afghanistan...we actually had a chance to shut down the terrorists.. now we have created far more than we can kill easily....

The Shrub FINALLY told us the truth this last week... he doesnt have a freakin clue for an exit strategy.. he will leave that up to the next President...

So how do you feel about your kids going there in oh... 10 to 15 years.. cause we are going to be there a LONG FUCKING TIME.

[SSGJOHNSON 0]

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Hmmm last time I checked.. his son is there in Iraq Right now...

Mine has been there as well

and I spent 8 years wearing the uniform....your point is??

I was very supportive of the administration when they went after the Taliban and AQ... too bad they had such attention deficit disorder and did not finish the job properly and BLUNDERED into Iraq... using the attacks as an excuse....or was it WMD... or was it they support AQ... oh thats right... It was personal.. that man tried to kill my Daddy.. GREAT.. we are back to the old days when Kings could go to war on a whim.

SOOO 2300 of our countrymen are dead... THOUSANDS more are now maimed for life from injuries in Iraq.

We have lost the support of MOST of the world.. the support that was at an all time high when we went to Afghanistan...we actually had a chance to shut down the terrorists.. now we have created far more than we can kill easily....

The Shrub FINALLY told us the truth this last week... he doesnt have a freakin clue for an exit strategy.. he will leave that up to the next President...

So how do you feel about your kids going there in oh... 10 to 15 years.. cause we are going to be there a LONG FUCKING TIME.

My point is I am wearing the Uniform right now and if whether or not you support the war you should keep your opinions to yourself unless you have been there and seen first hand what is happening instead of only going by what you see on tv or read on the internet. What do we need the rest of the world for so we can come and save there asses again. Dont hand me that crap I have done my duty and you cant take that away from me or my fallen bretheren. We can deal with it now or later I would rather we deal with it now instead of my children dealing with it later. I dont care how long it takes. Same old conservative BS sleep well my friend the Armed Forces are doing everything it takes to keep you save in your home and not having to fight the Terroist here in this country. I know if my son was over there I would feel the same way and be damm pround of the job that is being done instead of finding every little thing that I can to bring down the job that has to be done. Right or wrong we are there and doing the job. What I dont need is someone from anouther country telling me that my soldiers arent doing and acting like professional soldiers when I know first hand that they are and have been. Yes some didnt and havent but they are being dealt with. How dare anyone I dont care who you are lump the American soldier into one mold when it was the American Soldier that Time and TIme again has saved their country's ass.

I know ill go to heaven because ive spent my time in Hell.

[Amazon 7]

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My point is I am wearing the Uniform right now and if whether or not you support the war you should keep your opinions to yourself unless you have been there and seen first hand what is happening instead of only going by what you see on tv or read on the internet

So... in your mind we should just screw the First Amendment.. riiiiight...

I dont think that is why we served.. remember that little OATH you and everyone else who serves ...swears to......to DEFEND the CONSTITUTION????

[SSGJOHNSON 0]

OH again my bad Ill just take off my uniform and lay down my arms because you and your buddies dont think its right for us to be in this war. The Hell with the rest of the county that does support the soldiers and the fight that we are in. Sorry to hear that you dont support your country you allways have the right to move to Iraq and fight for there side.

I know ill go to heaven because ive spent my time in Hell.