I didn't join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy

[jeiber 0]

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No I don't. Not one. But that doesn't change anything. Someone who is an an elite force would respect his fellow fighters and understand that something things have to be done to keep our country safe. He wouldn't go around badmouthing other soldiers. And he definitely wouldn't use that as a reason to leave the forces. That right there is evidence who couldn't hack it.

I couldn't agree more. As a true professional, he would have quietly walked away, instead of providing propaganda that could be used against his former brothers in arms.

There's more here than is visible on the surface. Those that know, are professional enough to keep quiet...

J

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[billvon 2,990]

>As a true professional, he would have quietly walked away, instead of
> providing propaganda that could be used against his former
> brothers in arms.

So would it be safe to say that you would not respect any soldier as a professional who disagrees with the rationale behind a war?

[jeiber 0]

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So would it be safe to say that you would not respect any soldier as a professional who disagrees with the rationale behind a war?

It has nothing to do with respect. I have alot of respect for his professional accomplishments. He can have any belief he wants. I do question his judgement in giving this to the media circus.

Part of being professional is doing things you don't necessarily want to do, and doing it with a smile on your face. I did when I was an enlisted soldier in the Army, and I do it now as a professional for the corporation I work for.

There are alot of things in life that you don't have to like, you just have to 'do'.

J

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[Andy9o8 2]

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No I don't. Not one. But that doesn't change anything. Someone who is an an elite force would respect his fellow fighters and understand that something things have to be done to keep our country safe. He wouldn't go around badmouthing other soldiers. And he definitely wouldn't use that as a reason to leave the forces. That right there is evidence who couldn't hack it.

I couldn't agree more. As a true professional, he would have quietly walked away, instead of providing propaganda that could be used against his former brothers in arms.

There's more here than is visible on the surface. Those that know, are professional enough to keep quiet...

J

You’re making a sweeping generalization that fails to account for individual differences in personality. Even if your general premise is more or less correct (which I don’t necessarily concede), there are still going to be a few people in the “narrow range” of the bell curve to whom the general premise simply does not apply; or in this case, some elite soldiers who will resign out of outrage with no hidden agenda, and feel, for whatever reason, that it is either correct or necessary to publicly air their reasons. One cannot rule out the possibility that this soldier falls into such a group.

[jeiber 0]

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You’re making a sweeping generalization

Yes, I am, but as you mentioned, there are a few people in a narrow range that don't apply to my statement. By far, my statement is accurate. Are there exceptions? Of course. There are exceptions to everything.

His military career was with a unit where secrecy was paramount. He's been through SERE training (British equivalent) where he knows the power of morale. So this soldier, knowing the importance of silence, and the impact his actions will have on morale, chooses to divulge (very subjective) information to the media.

THAT I have issues with.

J

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[happythoughts 0]

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So would it be safe to say that you would not respect any soldier as a professional who disagrees with the rationale behind a war?

Anyone from the VN era recognizes the name Col. David Hackworth.

26 years in the military. 7 seven in combat, almost 5 of those in VN, most out on the front areas.

He was put in for the Medal of Honor three times.
He was twice awarded the Army’s second highest honor for valor, the Distinguished Service Cross, 10 Silver Stars, 8 Bronze Stars, 8 Purple Hearts, and, of course, the CIB.

He wrote Vietnam Primer (the "how to fight guerillas" handbood). Commanded a battalion of the 101st ABD in the Central Highlands.

However, towards the end of the war, during a tv interview, he said that we should get out of VN.

[happythoughts 0]

National Bank of Kuwait

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The National Bank of Kuwait first opened in Kuwait in 1952 to become the first national bank in the Gulf Region. NBK is currently the largest financial institution in Kuwait and one of the leading banks in the middle east with branches in New York,London, Paris, Geneva, Beirut, Jordan, Bahrain, Qatar and Singapore. Having capital resources of over $2.2 billion it is ranked in the top 300 banks of the world and fifth among arab banks.

In 1982, a company named Anacomp in Sarasota was writing software for the NBK. The software was going to be run on NCR computers and the computers were going to live in London.

Britain has some very strong financial ties with the Middle East. There are areas where the interests of the US, the UK, and countries of the ME dovetail.

I stayed with a few members of the SAS in the bunkhouse at Sebastian a few years ago. I have no doubt about the persons valor or sincerity. Their life is harsh, even on vacation.

However, they may not have all the information that the PM has, when assuming that the UK is not acting in its own interests.

[billvon 2,990]

>Anyone from the VN era recognizes the name Col. David Hackworth.
>26 years in the military. 7 seven in combat . . . the Distinguished
> Service Cross, 10 Silver Stars, 8 Bronze Stars, 8 Purple Hearts, and,
> of course, the CIB.

> . . . he said that we should get out of VN.

For many here, then, he would be a soldier who does not respect his fellow fighters and does not understand that some things have to be done to keep our country safe. And he would be a soldier who just couldn't hack it.

[Ragnarok 0]

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>Anyone from the VN era recognizes the name Col. David Hackworth.
>26 years in the military. 7 seven in combat . . . the Distinguished
> Service Cross, 10 Silver Stars, 8 Bronze Stars, 8 Purple Hearts, and,
> of course, the CIB.

> . . . he said that we should get out of VN.

For many here, then, he would be a soldier who does not respect his fellow fighters and does not understand that some things have to be done to keep our country safe. And he would be a soldier who just couldn't hack it.

Um, no. Our presence in Vietnam had nothing to do with keeping our country safe. As far as Col. Hackworth being able to hack it - uh, well, he has nothing to prove and no one to answer to. He paid his dues, many times over.........

Them's fighting words...........


BTW, I spent a year in Iraq. Don't really know why we are over there, nor did I make the decision to go. I worked as a critical care nurse at the hospital in the Green Zone. I paid my dues, too.

What have you done???

_________________________________________
Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006
Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008
Blue Skies Forever

[kallend 2,026]

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So would it be safe to say that you would not respect any soldier as a professional who disagrees with the rationale behind a war?

It has nothing to do with respect. I have alot of respect for his professional accomplishments. He can have any belief he wants. I do question his judgement in giving this to the media circus.

Part of being professional is doing things you don't necessarily want to do, and doing it with a smile on your face. I did when I was an enlisted soldier in the Army, and I do it now as a professional for the corporation I work for.

There are alot of things in life that you don't have to like, you just have to 'do'.

J

I suppose you thought it just fine that the Army tried to cover up the My Lai massacre, too. Brothers in Arms, and all that.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AdD 1]

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Part of being professional is doing things you don't necessarily want to do, and doing it with a smile on your face. I did when I was an enlisted soldier in the Army, and I do it now as a professional for the corporation I work for.

Dude, when you allow your chosen role to supersede the moral and ethical judgements you ought to be making as a human being, you have become exactly what the military and business world needs, another f*ckin drone.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[billvon 2,990]

>Our presence in Vietnam had nothing to do with keeping our country safe.

?? At the time, we were fighting the threat of communism, protecting the Vietnamese from a brutal regime and fighting back against an attack on US military forces by the North Vietnamese. We were supporting freedom and helping our allies who had been attacked.

In other words, very similar to the rhetoric used to support the Iraq war. And just as important in terms of keeping our country safe.

From Johnson's address to Congress concerning the vietnam war:
---------
Last night I announced to the American people that the North Vietnamese regime had conducted further deliberate attacks against U.S. naval vessels operating in international waters, and I had therefore directed air action against gunboats and supporting facilities used in these hostile operations. This air action has now been carried out with substantial damage to the boats and facilities. Two U.S. aircraft were lost in the action.

After consultation with the leaders of both parties in the Congress, I further announced a decision to ask the Congress for a resolution expressing the unity and determination of the United States in supporting freedom and in protecting peace in southeast Asia.

These latest actions of the North Vietnamese regime has given a new and grave turn to the already serious situation in southeast Asia. Our commitments in that area are well known to the Congress. They were first made in 1954 by President Eisenhower. They were further defined in the Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty approved by the Senate in February 1955.

This treaty with its accompanying protocol obligates the United States and other members to act in accordance with their constitutional processes to meet Communist aggression against any of the parties or protocol states.

Our policy in southeast Asia has been consistent and unchanged since 19554. I summarized it on June 2 in four simple propositions:

1. America keeps her word. Here as elsewhere, we must and shall honor our commitments.
2. The issue is the future of southeast Asia as a whole. A threat to any nation in that region is a threat to all, and a threat to us.
3. Our purpose is peace. We have no military, political, or territorial ambitions in the area.
4. This is not just a jungle war, but a struggle for freedom on every front of human activity. Our military and economic assistance to South Vietnam and Laos in particular has the purpose of helping these countries to repel aggression and strengthen their independence.
The threat to the free nations of southeast Asia has long been clear. The North Vietnamese regime has constantly sought to take over South Vietnam and Laos. This Communist regime has violated the Geneva accords for Vietnam. It has systematically conducted a campaign of subversion, which includes the direction, training, and supply of personnel and arms for the conduct of guerrilla warfare in South Vietnamese territory. In Laos, the North Vietnamese regime has maintained military forces, used Laotian territory for infiltration into South Vietnam, and most recently carried out combat operations - all in direct violation of the Geneva Agreements of 1962.

In recent months, the actions of the North Vietnamese regime have become steadily more threatening...

As President of the United States I have concluded that I should now ask the Congress, on its part, to join in affirming the national determination that all such attacks will be met, and that the United States will continue in its basic policy of assisting the free nations of the area to defend their freedom.

As I have repeatedly made clear, the United States intends no rashness, and seeks no wider war. We must make it clear to all that the United States is united in its determination to bring about the end of Communist subversion and aggression in the area. We seek the full and effective restoration of the international agreements signed in Geneva in 1954, with respect to South Vietnam, and again in Geneva in 1962, with respect to Laos.
--------------------------


>BTW, I spent a year in Iraq. Don't really know why we are over there,
> nor did I make the decision to go. I worked as a critical care nurse
> at the hospital in the Green Zone. I paid my dues, too.

Cool! Thank you for doing your part.

>What have you done???

Personally? I designed part of the A-6E's radar system, designed a shipboard tester for F-14 avionics, and did sustaining design work on the EF-111's radio system controller (the CDU.) More recently I designed, developed and tested an airborne data system used to provide security video feeds from aircraft cockpits to ground stations for homeland security, as a result of a request from DHS. We demonstrated this system to Congress in 2003. I've also worked on a few other security programs.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Um, no. Our presence in Vietnam had nothing to do with keeping our country safe.

I was too young to serve in Vietnam, but I remember it clearly. Our presence there was most definitely characterized as "fighting abroad to preserve our freedoms at home", and our soldiers over there were "fighting for their country". It was argued that we were there to prevent the "domino effect" (Google it) and contain Communism, and thereby to protect the US. I'm just mentioning it so it can be realized just how much the current Iraq war rhetoric from the govt echoes the old VN war rhetoric from the govt.

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As far as Col. Hackworth being able to hack it -uh, well, he has nothing to prove and no one to answer to.

No more and no less than this former SAS soldier.

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BTW, I spent a year in Iraq. Don't really know why we are over there, nor did I make the decision to go. I worked as a critical care nurse at the hospital in the Green Zone. I paid my dues, too.

Thank you for your service. Seriously. I have 2 close relatives serving in Iraq. I imagine I feel now what your family felt then.

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What have you done???

I think it's regrettable that you put it this way. It is a fallacy that civilian citizens of a democratic country at war lack standing to criticize the government's policies in waging that war.

[jakee 1,489]

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Personally? I designed part of the A-6E's radar system, designed a shipboard tester for F-14 avionics, and did sustaining design work on the EF-111's radio system controller (the CDU.) More recently I designed, developed and tested an airborne data system used to provide security video feeds from aircraft cockpits to ground stations for homeland security, as a result of a request from DHS. We demonstrated this system to Congress in 2003. I've also worked on a few other security programs.

Y'know, if some secret organisation ever hijacked Billvon and used him for evil I think we'd all be in serious trouble

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jeiber 0]

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I suppose you thought it just fine that the Army tried to cover up the My Lai massacre, too. Brothers in Arms, and all that.

It never ceases to amaze me how you can jump such vast canyons of conclusions. Who's talking about covering anything up?!

Keeping one's opinion to one's self is one thing. Covering up a massacre is another.

You're arguments sometimes remind me of the Monty Python skit where the knight is trying to speak logically to the villagers, but they are totally convinced this woman is a witch. No matter what is said, they twist the logic to support their belief that she's a witch....

Jeff

ps- Burn her!

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[kallend 2,026]

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I suppose you thought it just fine that the Army tried to cover up the My Lai massacre, too. Brothers in Arms, and all that.

It never ceases to amaze me how you can jump such vast canyons of conclusions. Who's talking about covering anything up?!

Keeping one's opinion to one's self is one thing. Covering up a massacre is another.

YOU wrote:
" As a true professional, he would have quietly walked away, instead of providing propaganda that could be used against his former brothers in arms.

There's more here than is visible on the surface. Those that know, are professional enough to keep quiet... "

Your own words. How does that NOT apply to a cover-up? A "Brother in Arms" would keep quiet, right?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SSGJOHNSON 0]

My thoughts are this: It is quit alright to say what you feel if you are not putting other men in harms way by saying things like that. I understand that your son is over there so let me try and break it down for you. If those comments cause a new terrorist or a new insurgent to get on board there cause and then that same insurgent cause harm to your son how would you feel about it then. On the same token when all the Men and Women are home and are no longer in harms way wouldn't it be more appropriate to speak out then and only then about what has gone on.

I realize that there are very few if any insurgents that would read a post in a skydiving forum. However the possibility of this information getting out and used against our very soldiers in high in a different type of forum. I feel it is imperative to show a strong support of our fighting men and women by not giving in to this kind of propaganda and showing a willingness to endure what has happened finish the job and then hold those accountable for what will come out as the right and the wrong.

What I'm getting at is propaganda is a very powerful thing and this true or not is simply propaganda that can be used against the men and women that are serving over there right this very minute. Some are good people and some are not but lets don't add fuel to a fire already burning and cause more and more death and destruction on both sides by saying thing that could cause the insurgency to continue.

I know ill go to heaven because ive spent my time in Hell.

[billvon 2,990]

> If those comments cause a new terrorist or a new insurgent to get on
> board there cause and then that same insurgent cause harm to your son
>how would you feel about it then.

On the other hand, if you speak out for peace, and that gets US troops home sooner, that could save his son and thousands of other US troops. Which is a worthwhile goal as well.

>Some are good people and some are not but lets don't add fuel to a
>fire already burning and cause more and more death and destruction on
>both sides by saying thing that could cause the insurgency to continue.

Like "bring it on?"

[shropshire 0]

Of course there are 2 sides to that particular coin....

Our governments started this fiasco for all sorts of reasons (most we can only guess at)... yet their words and actions (propaganda) have placed 10s of thousands of peoples lives at risk and they continue to do so daily ... maybe they should also take your advice and STFU?

P.S They've probably created more terrorists/supporters than the few decenting ex-soldiers ever could.

.

.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Zenister 0]

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OH again my bad Ill just take off my uniform and lay down my arms because you and your buddies dont think its right for us to be in this war. The Hell with the rest of the county that does support the soldiers and the fight that we are in. Sorry to hear that you dont support your country you allways have the right to move to Iraq and fight for there side.

I don't think anyone is criticizing the soldiers in theater. We sure as hell question the motives, competence and honesty of the Commander in Chief and the Secretary of Defense.

no one questions the strength of the sword, its the (lack of) wisdom in the hand that wields it (badly) as a hammer and for a political motivated war and NOT one that was created by military necessity.

the greeting of the day for this CINC and his incompetent staff should be "to the rank"

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[jeiber 0]

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How does that NOT apply to a cover-up?

Keeping a personal opinion to ones self is much different than covering up a massacre.

Let's find another angle to debate. I'm not going to spend my time disproving a straw man argument.

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[kallend 2,026]

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How does that NOT apply to a cover-up?

Keeping a personal opinion to ones self is much different than covering up a massacre.

Let's find another angle to debate. I'm not going to spend my time disproving a straw man argument.

My understanding is that tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the US/UK invasion. Massacre or just "collateral damage"? Torture and beatings are thoroughly documented. And you want it hushed up. Surely a good way to win the hearts and minds of the people.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jeiber 0]

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My understanding is that tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the US/UK invasion.

In your body count, I'm sure anybody not wearing an Iraqi military uniform is considered a civilian. To put it lightly, this is a very skewed number. Have civilians been inadvertantly killed? Yes. But you're completely disregarding the great lengths our military goes through to minimize civilian deaths. Let's talk about 'collateral damage' caused by insurgents. You need to be criticizing their tactics, not ours.

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Torture and beatings are thoroughly documented.

And so have the court proceedings.

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And you want it hushed up.

(straw man tactic, again...) No, I implied no such thing. I implied that a soldier's personal opinion about the war should be kept to himself. He took into captivity farmers that he didn't think were insurgents. Just because they aren't walking about with an RPG and AK doesn't mean they pose no intelligence value.

Once his comments no longer pose a threat, he can write a book and make a movie for all I care. Until then, his words are dangerous.

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[billvon 2,990]

> But you're completely disregarding the great lengths our military
> goes through to minimize civilian deaths. Let's talk about 'collateral
> damage' caused by insurgents.

As of Sept 2004:
------------------
More Iraqi Civilians Killed by US Forces Than By Insurgents, Data Shows
by Nancy A. Youssef

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Operations by U.S. and multinational forces and Iraqi police are killing twice as many Iraqis - most of them civilians - as attacks by insurgents, according to statistics compiled by the Iraqi Health Ministry and obtained exclusively by Knight Ridder.

According to the ministry, the interim Iraqi government recorded 3,487 Iraqi deaths in 15 of the country's 18 provinces from April 5 - when the ministry began compiling the data - until Sept. 19. Of those, 328 were women and children. Another 13,720 Iraqis were injured, the ministry said.

While most of the dead are believed to be civilians, the data include an unknown number of police and Iraqi national guardsmen. Many Iraqi deaths, especially of insurgents, are never reported, so the actual number of Iraqis killed in fighting could be significantly higher.
-------------------

>I implied that a soldier's personal opinion about the war should
>be kept to himself.

So you think a returning soldier who praises the job his fellow soldiers did should be silenced? Or do you only want a certain point of view silenced?

[jeiber 0]

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More Iraqi Civilians Killed by US Forces Than By Insurgents, Data Shows

Hmmm, odd that a Google search shows that no reputable news source ran that article. There are plenty of 'other' web sites that are running that article though; they bear slogans and titles, such as:

"Breaking News and Views for the Progressive Community"
Why cloud the issue with facts?

"Colorado Campaign for Middle East Peace"
No bias here, I'm sure.

"News You Won't Find on CNN"
And what does that tell you about the credibility of the news they report.

"SmirkingChimp.com"
'Fair and Balanced' is typed next to a picture of GW that's crossed with a chimp.... 'fair and balanced'

Maybe it is a real story (doubt it), but you still cannot discount our attempts to limit civilian deaths. What precautions are insurgents taking to make sure they don't harm non-combatants?

Here's a link for you. Granted it's not as credible as 'Smirking Chimp - Fair and Balanced'.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/06/30/iraq.main/

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So you think a returning soldier who praises the job his fellow soldiers did should be silenced?

Does this put his fellow soldiers in danger? There's your answer.

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!